SivartM Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Quote: Do you really think they're in the same boat? I hope lightning doesn't strike you. As a matter of fact I'm glad there's a couple of states between us. That's not exactly what I would call "friendly". But I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Originally Posted By: Woody Just like Neil hires others to use guns for him ... God had David and others do the dirty work. Are you sure you want to compare God to Neil? Do you really think they're in the same boat? I hope lightning doesn't strike you. As a matter of fact I'm glad there's a couple of states between us. For one thing, God's work is not dirty. Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 When U.S. troops were in Croatia, there were Adventist troops on both sides on the line. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Guns fine. War not. oG Naomi and Kevin H 2 Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatLakesGramma Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Quote: Do you really think they're in the same boat? I hope lightning doesn't strike you. As a matter of fact I'm glad there's a couple of states between us. That's not exactly what I would call "friendly". But I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. I didn't say THEY were being nice, Sivart. Quote Catherine God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26. "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Is there a difference between owning a gun and paying someone else to protect you with a gun as the case is with the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists? DreamWeaver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted July 14, 2015 Members Share Posted July 14, 2015 Is there a difference between owning a gun and paying someone else to protect you with a gun as the case is with the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists? not in my book, there isn't ... Naomi 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted July 14, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 14, 2015 I live in the country where a gun is just another tool. I would see nothing wrong with Elder Wilson owning a gun for his protection. (I'm not too happy with what happened in San Antonio so I feel like our leaders were leading the church at gunpoint to start with so they may as well have had a literal gun). But having the paid armed bodyguards was where he was able to focus on his work and have them focus on the safety of himself and others present. Hey we have enough to complain about with last week. We don't need to worry about the non-issues such as protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 25, 2015 Administrators Share Posted July 25, 2015 We all pay people to protect us with guns and much more. We pay taxes. Taxes pay for police and military which protect us all with guns and much more. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamWeaver Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Earlier this week I read about military gunsights being inscribed with Bible references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm and I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice. What's your take on this? Alex (not a gun owner) Protection - I'm currently trying to understand for myself if this is justifiable given the vulnerable position we will inevitably be subjected to in the future. Maybe the future will be different because it will be against the law to defend ourselves when we are considered legally an enemy of the state? But even then, I can't name many circumstances currently as an SDA where a gun would be necessary f we're living our lives right and avoiding unnecessary problems. I need to study more on this area. Hunting - What would we "hunt"? We don't eat meat. I guess clothes would be something to kill an animal for, but I still don't think that's justified due to the fact that clothes today are sometimes sold super cheap or even given out these days. Gun ownership birthright - Tradition should never be held over the Word of God. So if it turns out we shouldn't own them, then we will have to shun that part of culture just like we have to shun other areas of culture. Target Practice - That sounds like a pointless reason to have a gun. Just to play with it? The only reason you would go to "practice" is if you planned to use it. But if you don't plan to use it and you just find pleasure in shooting things just for fun, then its time for you to reevaluate your definition of "fun" and start pondering if Jesus would join in if you asked Him to. I am not a gun owner, but at one small point in time I thought about it. Right now they are irrelevant to me and I have yet to have a situation enter my mind where I would say that I would need one. Sure protection comes up at times when I think about weapons, particularly guns. They're fast, quick and modern. But they're also dangerous, they're illegal in some places and they cause too many moral complications and technicalities. And when you pull them out to use them you just don't have time to think about that stuff when you're in the heat of the moment because you train yourself to use them based on impulse and speed, so chances are you're going to kill someone before you can wonder if the moment calls for it. (I've considered training myself to possibly learn how to stun or disable an enemy, but guns are still risky. Maybe using another weapon would be better???) Overall, I'm thinking that I don't know where to place guns. But they don't seem to fit in with our overall mission in the last days. Maybe they can be used sparingly for now on rare occasions, but other than that I doubt they will be permissible later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamWeaver Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 We all pay people to protect us with guns and much more. We pay taxes. Taxes pay for police and military which protect us all with guns and much more. I don't think taxes count because they're an involuntary part of the law in many, if not all, countries. And Jesus made it pretty clear that in some ways when the government asks for money its considered something due to them and not necessarily something you have to be on board with them about. Many people pay taxes and are not happy with where some of their money goes. However, I am starting to consider more and more after reading this thread, that merely owning a gun and using it only in an emergency might not be all that unbiblical. I will have to read the bible and the SOP more to understand this better. Though, I'm still not convinced that I personally need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Overall, I'm thinking that I don't know where to place guns. But they don't seem to fit in with our overall mission in the last days. Maybe they can be used sparingly for now on rare occasions, but other than that I doubt they will be permissible later. Considering your well thought out ideas of firearms for personal use I would suggest, depending upon the gender, circumstance and location, a tazer might be be the best option. As for myself, my first question to answer for myself is WWJD. God is Love! Jesus saves! DreamWeaver 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 We all pay people to protect us with guns and much more. Jefferson has been quoted as saying, "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." While the authenticity of the statement is in question by some, the sentiment of it is worth considering. And in light of the current regimes efforts to ban guns and all their other schemes against the American people, I suspicion now is the time to arm yourself! I suspicion the people we pay to protect us really don't have our best interest in mind. A well armed public can make the government think twice of really going crazy on the people. Kevin H 1 Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 25, 2015 Administrators Share Posted July 25, 2015 That really is a foolish idea. How many armed confrontations between armed citizens and law enforcement ended well for the citizens? Armed conflict against the government is generally regarded as an act of treason. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 That really is a foolish idea. How many armed confrontations between armed citizens and law enforcement ended well for the citizens? Armed conflict against the government is generally regarded as an act of treason. No more foolish than the Revolutionary War! Sorry! Forgot, the people want high tech wars where no one gets killed except the bad guys. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted July 31, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2015 Some of us live where our neighbors are bears, coydogs etc. Naomi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Some of us live where our neighbors are bears, coydogs etc. Yeah, I have a big section of fence in my back yard to replace that was torn down by bears! I wouldn't really want to shoot one though. I have had deer, raccoons, groundhogs, and an assortment of other rodents in my yard. Kinda different than the big city! Kevin H 1 Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted July 31, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2015 And of course we don't want to kill any. But we don't want to be killed by them either. Naomi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unchained Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Many people own guns for “protection”, but are you and your family really safer when you own a weapon? There are over 30.000 firearm deaths in the US per year. Around 10.000 of these are homicides, around 20.000 are suicides and additionally you have a few hundred fatal accidents every year (606 in 2010). Suicides outnumber homicides two to one. It's in other words twice as likely that you or your partner will commit suicide with your gun, than being shot at and killed by someone else. And yes, there is a proven connection between the rate of suicide and gun ownership! Now, of these 30.000 firearms deaths a year, how many people shot and killed a person in self-defense, because they claimed to be threatened? In 2010 this was 326 people! (And it's not even certain that the use of lethal force really was needed in these cases.) In other words, killing a person in self defense is something that happens quite rarely. (As a matter of fact you're twice as likely to accidently kill yourself or another person than killing someone in self-defense.) On the other hand, in ¾ of the homicides where guns are used, the victim knows the one who kills him/her. In other words, for every person that shoots and kill someone in self-defense, there are 25 cases where people shoot and kill someone they know “just because”. This could be husbands who shoot their spouses in a fit of rage, mentally disturbed teenagers who get hold of their dad's gun and kill their parents, or someone that wants revenge on a colleague. Thus, the more guns that are in circulation to “protect” us, the more suicides and homicides you get! And on top of this you have accidents! Sources: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htmhttp://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htmhttp://nypost.com/2012/03/31/self-defense-killings-in-us-nearly-doubled-from-2000-2010-statistics-show/ * * * “Study after study unequivocally demonstrates that the prevalence of firearms directly increases the risk of youth homicide, suicide, and unintentional death. This effect is consistent across the United States and throughout the world.” http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/06/gun_deaths_in_children_statistics_show_firearms_endanger_kids_despite_nra.html “A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. [..][The study] found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.”http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/ Edited July 31, 2015 by Unchained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B/W Photodude Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 In addition, everybody had guns. One commonality among the nations conquered by Germany is that private firearms ownership was heavily restricted or simply banned. With no such restrictions here and given the fact that modern combined arms tactics were still in their infancy, it's difficult to see how the Germans would have avoided taking heavy casualties. The Germans would have faced an armed force at least 10 times the size of their invasion force, who were also motivated to ensure that they (the Germans) would lose. http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2015/08/02/world_war_ii_what_would_have_happened_if_germany_had_invaded_the_u_s.html Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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