olger Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Good question. There is a blessing in the curse, apparently (Deut 11:26-28). 1) For man, the curse brings out the masculine in him, and helps prepare him to tbe the protector (house-band) of the home. 2) In the same manner, the aspect of the curse that said “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” assumes already the reality of Eve’s God-ordained role–namely to be Adam’s help-meet. This was her purpose for existence. What the curse now says is—that which God previously ordained will now become difficult because of an opposition factor within her. Her submission to his will, will no longer be natural or spontaneous. Indeed now that submission will require self-sacrifice and self-denial. In this submission, she shares in the Law of heaven–the law of love. The curse becomes a blessing. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Good question. There is a blessing in the curse, apparently (Deut 11:26-28). 1) For man, the curse brings out the masculine in him, and helps prepare him to tbe the protector (house-band) of the home. 2) In the same manner, the aspect of the curse that said “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” assumes already the reality of Eve’s God-ordained role–namely to be Adam’s help-meet. This was her purpose for existence. What the curse now says is—that which God previously ordained will now become difficult because of an opposition factor within her. Her submission to his will, will no longer be natural or spontaneous. Indeed now that submission will require self-sacrifice and self-denial. In this submission, she shares in the Law of heaven–the law of love. The curse becomes a blessing. g That is a very interesting point Olger. So what was natural, now becomes an "effort"? Also, we have to be careful not to avoid the fact that this is a judgement, claiming it is just a "consequence" ignores some simple points in scripture: Is what happened to the snake "consequence" or "judgement"? Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Seems like a judgement to me, but could be construed as a consequence. But just to be sure, watch this: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. "I will put emnity..." Here we see Gods personal action. And agains we see it here: Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...", then notice that the following injuction is not stated as a seperate point but carried on. "thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Now if the first part is an injuction that the Lord causes, then the following part is in the same thought and also is an "injunction". So from that, I can see that it was ordained of God because He states "I will...". Active participation. Simple, when we let the bible speak for itself... God multiplied the womans sorrow and God stated that her desire would be for her Husband and that he would rule over her. In other words. God did it... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 But like most things, we bring the world to the bible and try to make the bible conform to the worlds view. Why? Because we still want the "approval" of the "world". We still want the "acceptance" of the "world". So the world says: "Women should not be subject to their husbands." God says: "Women are subject to their husbands." And then we get all in a panic trying to change what God has said so that it conforms with the world. Why? So that we can be "accepted". We are Adventists. We are not supposed to be into "worldly acceptance". But into "Godly acceptance"... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...", then notice that the following injuction is not stated as a seperate point but carried on. "thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Now if the first part is an injuction that the Lord causes, then the following part is in the same thought and also is an "injunction". So from that, I can see that it was ordained of God because He states "I will...". Active participation. Simple, when we let the bible speak for itself... God multiplied the womans sorrow and God stated that her desire would be for her Husband and that he would rule over her. In other words. God did it... Mark :-) It is really tough to be PC and yet believe in what God says. This truth should not be presented, though, without the balancing truth that man's responsibility to woman actually exceeds the converse. Man is to be prepared to give Himself for woman, even as Christ gave Himself for the church. That is a higher level of sacrifice than submitting. And, a woman can truly submit to a man like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...", then notice that the following injuction is not stated as a seperate point but carried on. "thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Now if the first part is an injuction that the Lord causes, then the following part is in the same thought and also is an "injunction". So from that, I can see that it was ordained of God because He states "I will...". Active participation. Simple, when we let the bible speak for itself... God multiplied the womans sorrow and God stated that her desire would be for her Husband and that he would rule over her. In other words. God did it... Mark :-) It is really tough to be PC and yet believe in what God says. This truth should not be presented, though, without the balancing truth that man's responsibility to woman actually exceeds the converse. Man is to be prepared to give Himself for woman, even as Christ gave Himself for the church. That is a higher level of sacrifice than submitting. And, a woman can truly submit to a man like that. I agree Karl, but if you read back you will notice that although that was volunteered, it was never drawn upon. All that happened were a some veiled and not so veiled insults like: "I am glad I do not live with you..." And: "More like Neanderthal..." (deleted) ----------------- But back to your point. You will notice that in NT there are two clear injunctions. One is that man should love his wife as Christ loved the Church. The other is that woman should submit to their husbands in the Lord. So we have two main issues here: 1. Man has a problem loving his wife they way he should. 2. Women have a problem submitting to their husbands. Now when these two points are accepted as general principles, God can then work in both individuals to create a happy married home. Because we "know" what the problems likely are... But if we are so busy imbibing the worlds "teachings" and never facing the issue, then we have just joined in with Satan's game... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 The topic is interesting. Some of the responses have been supercilious, sarcastic and inappropriate. That is my opinion anyway. Yes. Perhaps a moderator will come by and take appropriate action. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nan The topic is interesting. Some of the responses have been supercilious, sarcastic and inappropriate. That is my opinion anyway. Yes. Perhaps a moderator will come by and take appropriate action. Be careful what you ask for, as your post at the beginning in response to mine was personal and offensive. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. You mean this one ? "Well Mark. I'm glad I don't live in your household." Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. You mean this one ? "Well Mark. I'm glad I don't live in your household." Yes Woody. That one. Rather insulting and judgemental I thought. You know nothing about my household and the emotional and spiritual states of all in it, but imply that you know enough that you would not want to live there. You also do not understand the whole of my view on this matter, because all you have done is denounced my position, without even exploring where it leads, or whether it is in fact a biblical position. Your comment was inappropriate and offensive. As was Tom's. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. Thanks for sharing that. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. Thanks for sharing that. An apology might have been more appropriate. Please note that I am not criticising you, just your response. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. Thank you for sharing that. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 It is really tough to be PC and yet believe in what God says. This truth should not be presented, though, without the balancing truth that man's responsibility to woman actually exceeds the converse. Man is to be prepared to give Himself for woman, even as Christ gave Himself for the church. That is a higher level of sacrifice than submitting. And, a woman can truly submit to a man like that. Love the comment about PC I also like the part about man's responsibility, because it is Biblical. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I must wonder how (certain men) can speak very highly of the man's role in protecting women... and subsequently insult them. It must be something I'll learn when I get married. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 No theological stretch in Aldona's read of Scripture. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Oh. Thank you for sharing that. To which you respond with sarcasm... Do you ever consider how much strife and dissension your attitude brings to this board Redwood? You insulted me, then do not even bother to apologise when pointed out. Then you respond with sarcasm. What concerns me is that on the one hand you are condemning anyone that does not allow views to be expressed, but on the other constantly condemning those that do not agree with you. Demanding liberty for liberal points of view, but condemning anyone that you suppose has a conservative point of view. I have never ever seen you apologise for one of your own examples of bad behaviour, but I have seen you constantly complain about others. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Let me see ... You tell me I'm going to Hell and then you expect someone who is going to Hell to apologize for saying I wouldn't want to be in your household. Interesting thinking ... as you were ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Let me see ... You tell me I'm going to Hell and then you expect someone who is going to Hell to apologize for saying I wouldn't want to be in your household. Interesting thinking ... as you were ... I told you that anyone that thought they were saved in willful sin would be lost and pointed to the scripture. You then went on to state you that did not believe you were saved in willful sin. If that is the case, why are you still so "upset" about it that you have to keep making sarcastic references to it all the time? If you are not part of that group, why are you acting as if you are upset at something that no longer applies to you. Did you want me to apologise for what Jesus said? ----------------- But even if I did state it in the way you allege above, does that excuse your own bad behaviour? Are you, as a Christian, permitted to be rude and insulting because someone has "upset you"? Is that the gospel Redwood? Is that what Jesus taught? No. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I stand behind my comments. Of course you told me I am going to Hell ... so I am sure my thoughts are not worth much. Quote: "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." Mark Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I stand behind my comments. Of course you told me I am going to Hell ... so I am sure my thoughts are not worth much. Quote: "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." Mark If someone says they are saved in willful sin, then the following text shines a light on them: Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. You can of course try to take issue with Jesus here and try to transfer that onto me, but the real issue is with this text. I also stand by what this says. If anyone thinks they are saved in willful sin they are lost. If you believe you are saved practicing willfull known sin, you are also lost and you do not know the Lord. This is what the above is saying and I still maintain agreement with that. --------------- So we have two choices Redwood. We can either accept what Jesus was saying, or we can deny it and try to make a song and dance out of this viewpoint and claim we are being "victimised" by it. But that does not excuse your own behaviour and that certainly does not entitle you to be rude, sarcastic and to hold a grudge. In England we have a saying that deals with this type of behaviour: Grow up and stop acting like a spoilt child. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 People who stubbornly cling to sin will perish with it. The Bible is not wishy washy on this matter. rejoice always g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 People who stubbornly cling to sin will perish with it. The Bible is not wishy washy on this matter. rejoice always g Indeed. But some consider it a mortal insult to have that pointed out to them... Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Come to think of it, they (sin-clingers) thought Jeremiah was mortally insulting. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Have fun arguing with yourself Mark. I will not participate in your 'if's and revision of your ideas of who is going to Hell. But God did not appoint you to sit in judgment of me or anyone else. Please though take this topic to another thread. I will call upon the moderator to move your comments from here on. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Originally Posted By: Woody Oh. Thanks for sharing that. An apology might have been more appropriate. Please note that I am not criticising you, just your response. Mark Wait a minute here, Twilight.... How do you know that Woody wasn't appologizing with the above statement? In fact, how do you know WHAT the tone of the response was??? Are there some 'magical' words that must be uttered to be an apology? Or some ritual rite that must be printed out for it to be real??? I would suggest that this is rather vague....and your past experience is clouding your interaction with Redwood. My suggestion- get a grip and place him on ignore... And Redwood, you REALLY need to alter those responses...I know you can do it...because you have done it before... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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