LifeHiscost Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost I am free to choose the Master of my future, which freedom comes from only one Master. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"" John 8:32 NKJV. Do you think this is the extent of the freedom that the Pilgrims were looking for when they landed on Plymouth Rock? Why would they risk so much for something they could have back home in Europe? That would be my best logic. Although my best recall of history indicates when it came time to give that same freedom to others, much like many others have done, the gift was withheld. Seems like the adage "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" wasn't yet subscribed to yet. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost And we also have the freedom, at least for a little while, to have an "in your face", attitude. I actually do not live my choices in anyone's face. It just sounds like it when I start talking (or writing) about the way the government is interfering more and more in our lives, taking away more and more of our freedom. Then I get ticked off and say things like that (and mean every bit of it). But in real life, I just quietly live my life as I feel called to, as if they weren't there at all. Thank you, GLG, for calmly explaining yourself to me. It was something you didn't have to do, for you don't really owe me anything except for what your Lord would ask of you. Besides I see myself sometimes in the same position you explain about yourself. One of the attributes of Paul has been a guideline I ask to be given by our Lord, but especially on the forum I sometimes forget the need. While the context that was given in, was addressing material or temporal want, I find myself at present more often in need of spiritual gifts. "I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."Philippians 4:11 KJV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: karl Do you think this is the extent of the freedom that the Pilgrims were looking for when they landed on Plymouth Rock? Why would they risk so much for something they could have back home in Europe? That would be my best logic. Although my best recall of history indicates when it came time to give that same freedom to others, much like many others have done, the gift was withheld. Seems like the adage "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" wasn't yet subscribed to yet. Blessings!! In one basic respect, the Pilgrims are a logical outcome of the Reformation. In its increasing dissemination of the Bible, the increasing emphasis on it as the basis of spiritual meaning, the subsequently increasing importance of literacy as a mode of religious authority and awareness, a growing individualism was implicit. Freedom. "Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord." To establish themselves as rightful interpreters of the Bible independent of an inherited social and cultural order, the Puritans separated from the Anglican Church in order to re-establish religion as they believed it truly should be. This of course meant leaving the country because the King of England was the "pope" of the church, so they left for Holland in 1608. After 12 years, they decided to move again. Having gone back to England to obtain the backing of the Virginia Company, 102 Pilgrims set out for America. The reasons are suggested by William Bradford, when he notes the "discouragements" of the hard life they had in Holland, and the hope of attracting others by finding "a better, and easier place of living"; the "children" of the group being "drawne away by evill examples into extravagence and dangerous courses"; and the "great hope, for the propagating and advancing the gospell of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world." That they made many mistakes is obvious. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about what is valuable in freedom. What is it about freedom that is worth risking your life for? Is the security of tyranny more to be desired than the daunting task of facing the risks and responsibilities inherent in freedom? There was a big controversy regarding that very question in early America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Get the government out of people's lives and turn the free market spirit loose !! Worked for Ronnie, and it works for me ! g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Get the government out of people's lives and turn the free market spirit loose !! Worked for Ronnie, and it works for me ! g I agree with your sentiments, Olger, but how do we educate people to understand that the government shouldn't be there in the first place. It is like heating up a pan of water with a frog in it. The frog just goes to sleep. Same has happened with the populace. Most people have only learned the state-controlled version of American history and thus do not understand that the government is the doberman that must be kept chained to the fence where it belongs - protecting us, but not running our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 In that grand old document which our forefathers set forth as their bill of rights--the Declaration of Independence-- they declared: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." As the tidings spread through the countries of Europe, of a land where every man might enjoy the fruit of his own labor, and obey the convictions of his conscience, thousands flocked to the shores of the New World. Colonies rapidly multiplied. Sounds like heaven - where you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors. There shall not one man build and another inhabit. And how do you think it would be today, if some country on this planet were to establish: 1) A constitutional republican form of government. 2) A value based currency (linked directly to precious metal like the US or Swiss currencies were in the past.) 3) A Bill of Rights similar to the US Bill of Rights. 4) Only tariffs as state revenue generators - no property or income tax. I would move to that country as soon as I could arrange it. I would take my extended family. Such a nation would quickly become the economic marvel of the world. This is the way the United States was up until the Civil War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Is the security of tyranny more to be desired than the daunting task of facing the risks and responsibilities inherent in freedom? There was a big controversy regarding that very question in early America. And so it is today a question. What very often is overlooked is that the Christian can have his freedom in the midst of tyranny if he/she would put their trusts in the Giver of that gift, all without relying on the devil's tools of retribution. Reading the account found in the book "A Thousand May Fall" is the best personal witness to that fact on a personal level I can think of, although the story "The Hiding Place" by Corrie TenBoom would give reason to debate the issue. "...I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."Philippians 4:11 KJV JOY!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: olger Get the government out of people's lives and turn the free market spirit loose !! Worked for Ronnie, and it works for me !g I agree with your sentiments, Olger, but how do we educate people to understand that the government shouldn't be there in the first place. OTOH, to war against the government, of whom, "We the People", is where government follows Divine desires, seems counterproductive when it is ideally beneficial to all. Of course most everyone knows the ideal will not reign supreme until the Original Creator is given His proper place in the heart of man. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. Romans 13:1-3 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: abelisle Maybe we can start over by more clearly defining the parameters of the discussion? Is the freedom you are speaking about connected to political realities in this country? Is the freedom philosophical in nature? Is this freedom theological in nature? There are no rules for the discussion on this thread, Alex. They would be antithetical to a discussion about freedom. While abelisle might not have perceived the best rules, I'm unable to agree with you, Karl, that freedom derives from "no rules". If a man has no rules written in his/her heart, freedom becomes a figment of the imagination. I may think I can drive my car without obeying the rules, but if I don't run into someone else while we both drive "free", sooner or later the rules of physics will determine whether or not I stay safely on the roadway. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 While abelisle might not have perceived the best rules, I'm unable to agree with you, Karl, that freedom derives from "no rules". If a man has no rules written in his/her heart, freedom becomes a figment of the imagination. I may think I can drive my car without obeying the rules, but if I don't run into someone else while we both drive "free", sooner or later the rules of physics will determine whether or not I stay safely on the roadway. Blessings!! I agree that God's rules are essential for true freedom, but you'll have to do some more developing of the concept to make it germane to official rules for the discussion of freedom. OK OK... Here are some written rules if you absolutely must have some: No lying No coveting Honor your parents No stealing No murder No idolatry Since this is a Christian board, I had assumed these to be understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Get the government out of people's lives and turn the free market spirit loose !! Worked for Ronnie, and it works for me !g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 You can have safety or you can have freedom; you cannot have both. Yes, you can have freedom in your mind even though you are in prison, but you are still in prison. In the same way you can say "I am saved even though I am still a sinner" and believe that with all your heart, but you are still a slave to sin because Jesus said that "Anyone that sins is a slave to sin." If we believe Jesus Christ and we still continue to sin we are really don't believe in what he says. This works in our nation today; we can say were are a free people yet if we allow our Government to rule every aspect of our lives from cradle to grave then we only believe we are free in our minds but we are not free in fact. This is not appealing to me, in either case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 My apologies for seeming to be an anarchist above. A minimal government is useful, as was clearly demonstrated in the meteoric rise of this country before our government started intruding into everybody's business worldwide and countrywide. What I meant to say was that the government shouldn't be intruding into people's lives in a way that diminishes productivity, or penalizes people for being productive, or rewards people and/or governments for counterproductive behavior. Not particularly happy about government's right to determine how much more of my labor efforts should belong to the common good, I still think restricted freedom comes from personal failure to give freedom to others. Just ask the native American how he/she perceives present day freedom, when they still need to demand from the European that they allow him/her have equal rights on the land that was stolen from them in the first place. That's why I find satisfaction in this Word. "He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and sets up kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding!" Daniel 2:21 AMP Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 You can have safety or you can have freedom; you cannot have both. Yes, you can have freedom in your mind even though you are in prison, but you are still in prison. Yes, I agree. We have the attorneys suing everyone because life isn't safe. If you trip over a parking bumper or slip on some ice and are injured, it isn't your fault, it is the fault of the store owner (if he has any money or has insurance.) Freedom isn't safe. It requires wariness and diligence, responsibility and resolve. Work. When we make life safe, or even profitable, for people practicing stupidity, do you know what we get? MORE STUPIDITY! One lesson we never seem to learn in our move toward ever more socialism in the US is that we shouldn't pay for what we don't want to see more of. If I go down to the high school and offer $20 for kids to run across the football field in the snow barefoot, I'll have takers! When the government offers people money for faking disability, or for having babies, or for acting too stupid or irresponsible for anybody to hire them for anything, there will be takers. Lots and lots and lots of them. "I'll do anything you want me to do (except work) for money." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. Author Unknown From spiritual truth to great courage: The courage of the men who fought for our freedom in the American Revolution was beyond measure. In the face of unremitting hardship and tribulation, their endurance and relentless pursuit of the prize of liberty was remarkable. From courage to liberty: The result of their effort: Liberty as not seen in the history of humanity. They birthed a free people who changed the world, who confronted evil and encouraged freedom everywhere. From liberty to abundance: Has any nation enjoyed the abundance of America? Yes, our natural resources are staggering, but no more so than those of nations which have suffered the most brutal bondage. Our abundance is the fruit of our liberty. From abundance to selfishness: We no longer are as generous as we once were. Today, we are unceasingly told to look out for ourselves. Our self-interests too often trump our generosity. Certainly, Americans remain generous and giving, but our generosity and willingness to help others, it seems, has crested. For one thing, with the growing socialism in this country, we are much less profitable as a individuals than ever before. There is an increasing percentage of freeloaders living off the decreasing percentage of productive citizens. From selfishness to complacency: The percentage of Americans who vote is appalling. The percentage of Americans who know their own history is appalling. Everywhere we see a complacency that makes us ripe for the snatching away of our liberty. From complacency to apathy: Parents are uninvolved in the education and raising of their children. Many, if not most, Americans fail to participate in our political process in any meaningful way. As long as our bellies are full and our beds warm, all is good. From apathy to dependence: Need there be discussion of the dependence Americans have on our government? Our renowned rugged individualism is waning. From dependence back again to bondage: Actually, dependence IS bondage. It seems a peculiar trait of many that bondage is more desirable than freedom. As Esau, they are willing to trade their birthright for a bowl of stew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. Author Unknown Couldn't agree with you more when looking on the world society as a whole. However there is another side totally missed in your conclusions. These are the conclusions of those who have accepted Jesus and asked His Holy Spirit to be their guide and give them the enabling power, His virtues, to be different than that which you have focused on as the prevailing societal mores. "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:2 NKJV And I could point to innumerable avenues in which people, who have chosen Jesus, and some who don't know Him yet, are practicing just contrary to that which you are focusing. "“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ " Matt 25:37-40 NKJV JOY!!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Originally Posted By: karl Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. Author Unknown Couldn't agree with you more when looking on the world society as a whole. And I could point to innumerable avenues in which people, who have chosen Jesus, and some who don't know Him yet, are practicing just contrary to that which you are focusing. Good point, LHC. The point of the quote, which many attribute to Benjamin Disraeli, is that spiritual enlightenment of a culture - spiritual freedom - leads to civic freedom. The only way a culture can be truly free is to have everyone practicing the Golden Rule. Conversely, it is a measure of the spiritual depravity of a culture that the culture must employ more and more force to keep the peace. Voltaire once commented to Ben Franklin (our ambassador to France at the time) about the wonderful freedom enjoyed by the American people. Franklin's response to Voltaire was that they could not have such freedom in France because the people were so corrupt, having thrown off all religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Is not there a big difference between "liberty" and "freedom"? I would rather have freedom. One is from God, the other is from man. Sailors returning to land were given 'liberty passes' because they were still being controlled by someone. The statue of 'liberty' was/is a symbol of a false hope in freedom by those living in the jurisdiction of the USA. The constitution does not speak of liberty, it speaks of freedom. (Food for thought) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 FREEDOM noun the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint : we do have some freedom of choice | he talks of revoking some of the freedoms. See note at liberty . • absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government : he was a champion of Irish freedom. • the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved : the shark thrashed its way to freedom. • the state of being physically unrestricted and able to move easily : the shorts have a side split for freedom of movement. • ( freedom from) the state of not being subject to or affected by (a particular undesirable thing) : government policies to achieve freedom from want. • the power of self-determination attributed to the will; the quality of being independent of fate or necessity. • unrestricted use of something : the dog is happy having the freedom of the house when we are out. LIBERTY noun 1 the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views : compulsory retirement would interfere with individual liberty. • (usu. liberties) an instance of this; a right or privilege, esp. a statutory one : the Bill of Rights was intended to secure basic civil liberties. • the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved : people who have lost property or liberty without due process. 2 the power or scope to act as one pleases : individuals should enjoy the liberty to pursue their own interests and preferences. • Philosophy a person's freedom from control by fate or necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Greece Outlaws Cash Transactions Above 1500 Euros, Unveils New Taxes In an attempt to rein in the shadow economy and collect more tax revenue, Greece outlaws cash transactions greater than 1500 Euros. "From 1. Jan. 2011, every transaction above 1,500 euros between natural persons and businesses, or between businesses, will not be considered legal if it is done in cash. Transactions will have to be done through debit or credit cards" New 40% Tax Rate In addition to attempts to collect more sales taxes (VAT), Greece will levy 40% tax rate on more earners. Greece will lower the current 75,000 euro income threshold that is subject to a 40 percent tax rate as part of reforms to urgently boost government revenues, the country's finance minister said on Monday. "The 40 percent tax rate will be applied on income levels that are lower than what is the case today, but there will also be intermediate rates that will provide relief for low and middle incomes," Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou told Ta Nea newspaper in an interview. He said that as a result of the tax changes, the biggest burden would be felt by a small percentage of tax payers as 95 percent of earners report incomes below 30,000 euros a year. --------------- They are eliminating what little middle class they have left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 The point of the quote, which many attribute to Benjamin Disraeli, is that spiritual enlightenment of a culture - spiritual freedom - leads to civic freedom. The only way a culture can be truly free is to have everyone practicing the Golden Rule. Conversely, it is a measure of the spiritual depravity of a culture that the culture must employ more and more force to keep the peace. Voltaire once commented to Ben Franklin (our ambassador to France at the time) about the wonderful freedom enjoyed by the American people. Franklin's response to Voltaire was that they could not have such freedom in France because the people were so corrupt, having thrown off all religion. As Richard would say, and I concur, "Yep"! In the first underlined above, attributing the "Golden Rule" would indicate counsel from Jesus. As to the second underlined, some religion other than Christianity would be better than no religion, however I'm not sure any religion other than Christianity believes in the golden rule. Perhaps there are others. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 >>When the government offers people money for faking disability, or for having babies, or for acting too stupid or irresponsible for anybody to hire them for anything, there will be takers. Lots and lots and lots of them.<< Seems to apply to our industrial base as well; to wit, the numbers of Corporations that relocated to foreign shores at the behest and the $$$ incentives our govt used to encourage our manufacturers to leave us a nation of ‘information’ processors. Like how much ‘information’ is in involved flipping burgers, greeting customers, etc – ‘puter technologies aside. It appears that Feudalism, exemplified as a paradigm shift for the American citizen – is in view. (“...you will go even unto Babylon”; that is, – economic slavery) That is not yet taking into account enemies within our gates (--Abraham Lincoln) who unceasingly strive to corrupt/erode the only nation upon earth whose beginnings were in covenant with Jesus Christ Gd. It has been prophesied: this generation will see America brought down as a bird in the dust of the earth – Gd having removed His protective blessings from them – that He might raise them again, as He chooses. At that time, all the nations who have gathered against America will exclaim, “Only their Gd could have saved them!” [/paraphrased] For His name’s sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 24, 2010 Members Share Posted February 24, 2010 I thought this was worth remembering today: 1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue.. My uncle was there. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 I thought this was worth remembering today: 1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue.. My uncle was there. Thank you for the thought. Thank him for the guts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 24, 2010 Members Share Posted February 24, 2010 I thought this was worth remembering today: 1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue.. My uncle was there. Excellent Pam. I was going to honor him as a hero but am afraid of starting a riot. But thank him anyway. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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