"Religion Needs Atheism"

[Bravus]

Perhaps. But 'no atheists in a foxhole' is an old Christian meme, and as much as anything shows a lack of imagination, IMO. Of course there are atheists in foxholes and other extreme situations.

Similarly with the above: to me, part of having a conversation is letting people to some extent define themselves as they wish to. If there are people who call themselves 'atheists', I'd rather show some respect in dialoguing with them than claim they don't exist.

(And it's only a short leap from the logic above to claim that there are no real Christians, since no-one knows everything about God)

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:6 KJV

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John 8:32 KJV

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."John 10:9 KJV

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." John 10:2 KJV

Blessings!!

Let me say "amen" to the above, LHC, with the caveat that these truths are WAY too big for the agnostic or the atheist boxes.

You're probably right, Karl, and I'd like to suggest, the box Jesus offers can be found only at the foot of the cross.

[TWNolan]

Perhaps. But 'no atheists in a foxhole' is an old Christian meme, and as much as anything shows a lack of imagination, IMO. Of course there are atheists in foxholes and other extreme situations.

Similarly with the above: to me, part of having a conversation is letting people to some extent define themselves as they wish to. If there are people who call themselves 'atheists', I'd rather show some respect in dialoguing with them than claim they don't exist.

(And it's only a short leap from the logic above to claim that there are no real Christians, since no-one knows everything about God)

First, it was more of a semi-humorous thought I had about atheist.

Second, I never said that they didn't exist. I am sure there are sincere people out there that believe they are atheist.

Third, I never have implied, never have said, nor never will say what I had mentioned above to an atheist so cold-heartedly like you implied.

[TWNolan]

I worked under 2 atheist when i lived in Oregon. We had interesting conversations about faith, none of which ADDED to my faith. I just hope I helped them.

[LifeHiscost]

It is an appeal for not only mutual intellectual honesty but a willingness to at least listen to what each side has to say.

Alex

Very good point, Alex. However in listening to false teachings (doctrine) it is important to recognize all truth comes only from One Source, whereas false doctrine is not above using lies, subterfuge, threats, force, innuendos, maligning, impugning, imbellishment, and whatever else casts a shadow on intellectual honesty, in order to achieve influence to remove the position of the individual with dependence upon what Truth is willing to share, without finding fault.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." James 1:17 NKJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Selmanovic argues that contradictions are inevitably apparent to us, as we have no divine "view from nowhere". But "contradictions today become treasures tomorrow", Admit that, and you raise the possibility differences might not be as profound as we think."

Alex

Admitted that we, Christians, agnostics, Muslims, etc., etc., ad-infinitum, have a mutual commonality. It's called sin, and until both sides come to agreement on that issue, there will be no reconciliation, any more than light can dwell with darkness.

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."Genesis 1:4 KJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Somehow I distinctly remembered Paul "engaging" with the Stoics and Epicureans:

Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. 18 Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods, “ because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? 20 For you are bringing some strange things to our ears. Therefore we want to know what these things mean.” 21 For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.

Acts 17:17-21

Alex

Again there is no doubt Jesus wishes His disciples to engage, and for what purpose? That Christians might add to there store of "Truth" by looking into the vaults of darkness? Or is it to reveal the Light, to dispell the darkness?

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."John 17:15 NASB

And what was one of Paul's most profound conclusions in his personal ministry to the unbeliever?

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."1 Cor 2:2 NASB

There is nothing wrong with admitting that the unbelieving can be acknowledged as having some things eternal.

"...He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:45 NKJV

It remains up to the suppliant to whom he/she will choose as guide. In the world we live in today, one Source alone is sufficient for the task.

"“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."Matthew 10:16 NKJV

"But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin]."1 Corinthians 1:30 AMP brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!!

JOY!!!

[Bravus]

Apologies, TWNolan - on re-reading what I wrote it sounds much harsher than I intended, particularly in the light of your clarifications about your attitudes and intent. I'm sorry.

[LifeHiscost]

As to a contribution to ethics, it shows us that people can can have very principled personal codes of ethics without believing in God. It also shows us that their ethical decisions based on love for their fellow man are as sincere as ours. It shows us that they didn't have to have a code of behavior thrust at them for them to do what is right even if the gauge of correctness is the Christian Ten Commandments.

That's how I see atheism and ethics at their(atheism's) best. Others may see different things. Let God be their judge not us.

Alex

And I believe, Alex, you make a good point about mixing with all, willing to share their time where the Word is allowed free access. Perhaps we could ask ourselves whether we are seeking in the right places for edification for ourselves or accepting a tit for tat gospel. I'm fairly sure the latter will prove itself bringing collateral damage.

Our success will be predicated upon our armor.

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil."Ephesians 6:11 NASB

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Apologies, TWNolan - on re-reading what I wrote it sounds much harsher than I intended, particularly in the light of your clarifications about your attitudes and intent. I'm sorry.

One of the more revealing of the virtuous life of Christians is that of forgiveness. And as my logic tells me, it is a virtue that won't be taken to heaven, for where there is no transgression against one's neighbor, where is the need of forgiveness? Perhaps someone could give enlightenment on the subject, and if it is perhaps it would be good to start a thread on the subject.

Blessings to all, and to all a goodnight.

[cardw]

Is this not simply referring to presenting truths in a manner they could easily relate to?

Rather than compromising an absolute biblical position, which the temptation often is, when we want to "dialogue" with atheists and agnostics.

Truth suffers no compromise.

Mark :-)

I think this attitude is what has motivated many atheists and agnostics to speak up. We don't want to live in a world ruled by this type of person. This is totalitarianism based on a particular literal interpretation of the bible.

Life under the civil government described in the bible was terrible. It squashed all human joy out of life with the threat of death for almost every offense and some rather silly "offenses."

I would rather die than live in this type of oppression. And I think I have a long history of Christian violence to back me up. We also have the insights of our founding fathers to back us up and a long line of philosophers, scientists, and artists who were persecuted and killed by a church that thought it knew better.

When I have met with other atheists and agnostics it is one of the most joyful gatherings of creative, vibrant, open, honest, and extremely intelligent people. In contrast when I have gathered with fundamental Christians it is one of the most fearful, ignorant, and inauthentic groups of people.

I'm not claiming that atheists are universally better people, but when I look at the different groups the fruits are strikingly different. And wasn't it Jesus who said it was by their fruits, not their beliefs that you would know people.

[Twilight]

Cardw, can I ask you a question?

If atheism is such a "joyful" experience, what went wrong in Soviet Russia?

What is going wrong in Communist China.

Do you realise that there are Christians being put to death in China right now, just because they will not stop being Christians?

That the state persecutes them because they will not fall in line with an atheistically derived government system.

Why is this appealing?

An atheistic world where religion is banned?

-----------------

Have you ever considered that it is "man" that is the problem.

No matter what clothes he wears?

The whole essence of Christianity is that one man, who walked perfectly through life, claimed to be God and claimed to show us the way to eternal life.

What is the essence of atheism?

Freedom from responsibility to anyone but oneself?

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Cardw, can I ask you a question?

If atheism is such a "joyful" experience, what went wrong in Soviet Russia?

What is going wrong in Communist China.

Do you realise that there are Christians being put to death in China right now, just because they will not stop being Christians?

That the state persecutes them because they will not fall in line with an atheistically derived government system.

Why is this appealing?

An atheistic world where religion is banned?

[LifeHiscost]

When I have met with other atheists and agnostics it is one of the most joyful gatherings of creative, vibrant, open, honest, and extremely intelligent people. In contrast when I have gathered with fundamental Christians it is one of the most fearful, ignorant, and inauthentic groups of people.

Well, at least you are truthful about your view of those fundamentalists who love Jesus and found Him to have suffered the greatest indignities for being too literal in His recognition

of what was (is) required to find enjoyment in heaven as their home. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when I think of the opportunity to pay a visit and speak about how much Jesus loves the sinner, of which I understand from the Word, we all who would serve Him, stand on common ground.

"Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,

Do not come near me,

For I am holier than you!’

These are smoke in My nostrils,

A fire that burns all the day. " Isa 65:5 NKJV

Regards!

[karl]

When I have met with other atheists and agnostics it is one of the most joyful gatherings of creative, vibrant, open, honest, and extremely intelligent people. In contrast when I have gathered with fundamental Christians it is one of the most fearful, ignorant, and inauthentic groups of people.

What are you doing here at ClubAdventist, cardw? Hangin' out with the paranoids?

Or are there more atheists here than I am aware of?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When I have met with other atheists and agnostics it is one of the most joyful gatherings of creative, vibrant, open, honest, and extremely intelligent people. In contrast when I have gathered with fundamental Christians it is one of the most fearful, ignorant, and inauthentic groups of people.

What are you doing here at ClubAdventist, cardw? Hangin' out with the paranoids?

Or are there more atheists here than I am aware of?

There are many atheists and agnostics that choose not to reveal their position because of the consequences within the communities that they serve. So yes there are more than you are aware of.

I am hoping to shift Christian believers to less fundamental world views that I believe are more rational and more beneficial, because I believe that many Christians are paranoid. It is no surprise since they have a belief in a devil that is out to get them and wage war at every level of society against them and god.

I believe that the modern fundamental Christian world view is harmful to society and the most effective means that I have for change is my voice. And since I am most familiar with Adventist culture this is one place that I raise these issues.

I have found reason to be very persuasive to those who have the ability to reason.

[Bravus]

Your presence is very welcome here Rich and I always enjoy your posts. Some of us need to stand strong against those who try to 'define us out' - presumably because they're not confident their arguments are strong enough to prevail any other way.

[cardw]

Your presence is very welcome here Rich and I always enjoy your posts. Some of us need to stand strong against those who try to 'define us out' - presumably because they're not confident their arguments are strong enough to prevail any other way.

Thank you Bravus. I do feel welcome for the most part. Club Adventist is a class act and I think its moderators do a difficult job very well.

Richard

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

To no one in particular. Are there really any atheist? They say they are until there stuck in a foxhole and the enemy is coming to kill them. So I would say a true atheist is like a true christian, not afraid to die! Would you not say?

pk

A true atheistis a contradiction.

An atheist KNOWS there is no God, god, or gods.

To Know there is no God, god, or gods one needs to know everything.

To know everything, one needs to be God, god, or gods.

So in summery, atheist is a god that does not believe in himself.

No an atheist is generally a default position in the absence of evidence for god. I choose the term agnostic because I don't know that there are no gods. I am, however, reasonably sure that the god of the bible doesn't exist.

Now there are atheists that have given their lives for their country.

I refer to this site dedicated to a monument of their service and sacrifice.

Atheists in Foxholes

[cardw]

To no one in particular. Are there really any atheist? They say they are until there stuck in a foxhole and the enemy is coming to kill them. So I would say a true atheist is like a true christian, not afraid to die! Would you not say?

pk

I refer you to this website that has studied non believers in the military.

Demographics of non believers in the Military

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

To no one in particular. Are there really any atheist? They say they are until there stuck in a foxhole and the enemy is coming to kill them. So I would say a true atheist is like a true christian, not afraid to die! Would you not say?

pk

I refer you to this website that has studied non believers in the military.

Demographics of non believers in the Military

Originally Posted By: from the website provided

With nearly one in four service members not interested in faith-based solutions, the military must ensure its chaplains are open specifically to nontheists.

The military chaplains I know are open to serve any and all members of the US military. They provide for more than just church services.

[cardw]

Quote:

Again there is no doubt Jesus wishes His disciples to engage, and for what purpose? That Christians might add to there store of "Truth" by looking into the vaults of darkness? Or is it to reveal the Light, to dispell the darkness?

And apparently the high point of this revelation of light comes out of the darkness of oldsailor's stomach. LOL

As I have said before many of these so called revelations of light promote fear and an implied threat of violence and punishment. This is illustrated by the meme of no atheists in foxholes. This implies that fear ultimately convinces people to convert.

[LifeHiscost]

No an atheist is generally a default position in the absence of evidence for god. I choose the term agnostic because I don't know that there are no gods. I am, however, reasonably sure that the god of the bible doesn't exist.

As a result of the fact that there are some many billions of parts of the human body that work together successfully for many years, and more often than not, can be found to fall apart as a result of abuse over the years, it is incredulous that one could find no evidence there is a Creator God.

Of course the big bang answers all that since when it went off, miraculously something came from nothing, all without a Designer.

And despite the fact that Jesus hung on the cross because He had a love for you, with the hope that you might see he was willing to risk total oblivion from the universe, IOW was willing to trade places with all who have rejected Him, yet there will be those who won't be willing to trust Him for eternal life with joy forever more. Incredulous!!!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Wishing you a better future than that which you have chosen.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

This implies that fear ultimately convinces people to convert.

The only God of Love is willing to use any means to give one the greatest possibility of being motivated toward the kingdom, even fear though fear does not come from Him.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 NKJV

As one pastor stated to me, 'God may use fear to move a person to the right direction, however fear will not keep him/her there'! And I concur.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Nice to see you back posting, Rudy.