Racism

[David_McQueen]

(Takes out soapbox and steps gingerly on it)

Ignorance

Racism isn't so much about ignorance, but more about wilfull ignorance. Comments can be made about another race because of a lack of education, exposure, interaction. This can be deemed ignorant or I would say prejudicial because the person has not cared to find out any different, e.g. child asks other child if their blood is red! (ok [censored] example!)

However when it becomes racist is when global assumptions and summaries are made about a racial group as a whole, and the person fostering this views invokes a superior view on them.

For example from my experience I was told my some people (not immediate family) in my community that when I go to work be careful of who I take a drink from as white people do not rinse the soap of their dirty dishes. Now this is what I would call racist, because it is steeped in ignorance and is a global assumption.

Socialisation and Prejudice

The truth is behind closed doors many people (is that an assumption?) have a sterotype of different racial groups. This is concurrent across all cultures.

Instilled into such cultures are sterotypes of what constitutes intelligence, beauty,etc. For example in the media the lighter your skin and hair across all cultures tends to be more acceptable. Blonde and blue eyed, fair skinned in Asian/SE Asian and Afro Caribbean communities. Even when I went to Barbados with wifey people stared at us like what she doing with him, (FifiQueen , complexion like Halle Berry, David, complexion like Wesley Snipes.) and such a perception is very common there.

Inevitably such prejudices as mentioned also get tied into summaries of community behaviuour, sexual habits, achievement, etc

Will it ever go away?

Doubt it. Prejudices will be made, even sometimes by ourselves. Am sure I am not the only member to have had an unreasonable thought about another race, although time has brought me to another level to see much deeper than that, and unlearn all that negativity from youth, whether as a reaction to racism from others.

Even within our own church or Christianity as a whole, ignorance amongst racial groups is paramount. From our worship styles to our congregational mixes. People are scared of the unknown and while I am not suggesting that racism is prevalent in our church, my personal experience has taught me that it is there as well, although I would tend to lean towards ignorance than willful ignorance.

One of the things that will be interesting to watch is what will happen to the make up of our church if the leadership comes from one of the regions that make up the majority of the worldwide church. Hmmm....

Anyway back to the point at hand. The defeating of racism comes from our homes, communities and our churches. Is it easy? Hell no, regardless of what community you come from! However it is more about what you and I can do to deal with it in our zone that mattters.

Thoughts?

(Replaces soapbox from whence it came)

[Bravus]

Just two quick thoughts:

1. There's no substitute for experience: once you know a number of people from a particular group well, and realise there's a huge variation among every group, and we're all 'just plain folks' (which means, wonderful and amazing!) no matter how we look, it's a lot harder to hold those global prejudices on the characteristics of all people whol look a particular way. In other words, racism thrives on insularity and dies in community.

2. Racism can work the other way as well - we can automatically assume good things about all people of a certain group: or not allow ourselves to think badly of an individual from a certain group, because we think that would be racist. But treating individuals as individuals - and allowing them the possibility of not being angels is part of that - is what it's about. Terry Pratchett does a very nice job of addressing this one, just incidentally-like, in his hilarious novels.

[there buster]

I think fear is a major component. Fear of the unknown, the different.

[Dottie]

David, I agree wholehaertedly with what you've said. Growing up, everyone was given a label by the adults I knew. Now, having been friends with others of different races, cultures, and ethnic groups, I have found that "people are people are people." And each of is a very special individual in our Father's sight.

[Nicodema]

Having grown up in wonderbread america, I have had to fight subtle stereotypes that are constantly "out there" to be picked up on, and constantly being programmed into us through subtle hints in media and in conversations with people around us who have already adopted the attitudes, etc. I'm literally only one generation away from a generation that considered it "unthinkable," a subject for whispering and comments under the breath, if a white girl dated or married a black man. It doesn't phase me personally, but that's not what I saw growing up -- I saw people make it a point of comment and such. Of course, that was among my parents and the company they kept -- and they were working on accepting it -- it might have been different for other people of their generation.

I do not wish to be a racist, nor a bigot of any sort. I think it begins with not wanting to be any sort of snob -- not wanting to be a person who looks down on others for any reason. Snobs are just bigots who judge based on economic strata, popularity, looks, "in-group" standing, etc. rather than ethnicity. Racism is bigotry that makes judgments based on ethnicity instead. It's all forms of bigotry.

There is one exception. To avoid bigotry one must be a bigot against bigotry. It is the necessary "exception to the rule" that proves the rule. Just like in order to preserve life one must kill what makes for death (e.g. cancer, disease, etc.)

[Dr. Shane]

I think race has nothing to do with charachter. However culture does impact charachter. Take a white man from Russia, Great Brittian and the United States and compare them. You would likely find greater differences between them than you would a white American, an asian American and a Native American (indian). Compare an American blackman with an African or a Carribean and suddenly their common race will mean nothing.

I married a woman of another race and yet because we share a common faith we have more in common than many white women I could have married. Culture is an issue however faith seems to have a bigger impact on one's charachter than culture. Race has no impact at all. Being white does nothing for me - nothing at all.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I will never forget an incident that happened when I was in 4th grade. My beloved teacher, Mrs. Brown, was talking about "Mexicans" - this was long before the term "Hispanic" had come into common use. Although our small town/rural school was mainly white, we had a few Hispanic students as well, and there was an Hispanic girl in that very class.

Mrs. Brown stated that they would never admit to being Mexican, and to prove her point, she asked this girl if she was Mexican. She answered that her parents were from Texas, to which Mrs. Brown answered "see?"

I was very confused by this at the time, and my classmate was obviously upset. I could not understand why Mrs. Brown thought it was such a big deal, or why it even mattered at all. This girl was my friend, not one of my closest friends, but still a friend, and except for her coloring, I had never thought of her as any different than the rest of us. I thought her dark skin and light palms were cool (though this was before the word "cool" was used that way too, or at least before it became common enough for me to know it.)

My very first ever boyfriend was Hispanic. (They still didn't call them that. He told me his race was called "mestizo" in his country - he was from Honduras.) I adored his dark eyes. Later, my mother told me that my grandfather was very prejudiced against people of other races, but that in becoming acquainted with my boyfriend he lost enough of that so that he didn't have a problem with one of my cousins marrying an Hispanic later.

[cricket]

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Being white does nothing for me - nothing at all.

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Well, it makes me more subject to sunburn. Ouch!

[Nan]

Racism is unpredictable and like David's experience I have seen a lot between the fairer and darker members of the more melanotically enhanced races. My own family is a bit of a mixture, my 2 elder children are adopted from Pakistan and Sri Lanka, the younger 2 home grown and my present husband Indonesian Chinese. Although I try to avoid prejudice, I am more likely to feel it against the less educated than against the different races. I am not proud of that. The point that prejudice is dissipated by getting to know individuals is the most valid.

An incident from my children's school days. They attended the Adventist High School in Auckland, NZ. From time to time there were difficulties between the whites (pakehas) and the mostly Polynesian other part of the school. After such a problem the Polynesian students were taken to one room for some counselling and the white students to another. My 2 (brown) children were grossly offended when they were assigned to the Pakeha room. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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Being white does nothing for me - nothing at all.

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Well, it makes me more subject to sunburn. Ouch!

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ROFL!!!

Me too, Chrys! And it makes my eyeballs pop and sizzle in the sunlight...

How about "reverse" racism ... where people of other ethnicities or nations sometimes automatically assume you are going to be either a racist, a "cracker", an obese conspicuous consumer, an ignorant nationalist, a corporate shill, a facile or shallow person, or whatever, just because you are (a) white and ( American. And it doesn't help when, in seeking to differentiate yourself from that element (which does exist, sad to say, in America) and take your place as a global citizen with an affinity for all peoples and cultures, fellow Americans accuse you of being somehow "unpatriotic" or "criticizing of America". Is it critical of something GOOD to want the BAD separated out of it? Since when???

[cricket]

I'd say there's a lot of the reverse racism going on.

Sadly.

There will come a day when students get scholarships based on their scholastic abilities. There will come a day when an employee can hire the person best qualified for the job. There will come a day when it will be all right for people of one race to talk with one another even when it means excluding someone of another race from the conversation.

I don't mean to sound racist. Indeed, I'm not. There are so many steps to growth, and some steps may seem cyclical, but they're not necessarily. It's more of a spiral staircase we, a generation of people, are taking. When we look down, we can see where we've been, but in fact, we're still moving upward to better things.

[LynnDel]

One of the major problems with doing away with quotas for college admission and employment is that in American public education the decks are stacked against those from lower socio-economic strata from the very beginning.

Local public schools are funded by local taxes. Poor neighborhoods = poorly funded schools.

The PTA of any school also has a lot to do with the enrichment in the education of the students of that school. In poor neighborhoods, the PTA is made up of parents who are in survival mode. They don't have the means to donate or the time to raise thousands of dollars in fund raisers in order to provide new computers, musical instruments, or other extra classroom supplies.

Students coming from poorly-funded schools are likely to be taught by teachers who haven't had the opportunity for ongoing training, who may not even be fully-qualified teachers because it is hard to keep qualified staff in a facility where the plumbing, heating, furniture, and curriculum materials are far below what we would consider acceptable.

I know of promising young people of various races who have been accepted into colleges on the quota system and had a very rough time of it, not because of their lack of ability, but because of poor preparatory education. They may not know how to write a research paper, because their school didn't have an acceptable library. They may not have had teachers who could figure out how to teach in spite of the things that are lacking in their classrooms. They may have come from classrooms where the major focus was student control, not learning, where the teacher felt successful if no one was hurt during the day, the students having an attitude of "no one cares about us, so why should I try", prevalent in poorly-funded high schools, where the students can see the great disparity between their lot and successful America.

Equality in America would be much enhanced if there were some way to equalize education at the elementary and high school levels.

OK. Stepping off my soapbox now.

LD

[Dr. Shane]

Sister Lynndel, the answer to equality in education in America is vouchers. Vouchers will allow parents to send their children to which ever school they choose. Children will no longer be held hostage by their school district. Parents may choose to send their children to a private school or a public school in a different school district. The voucher system would result in these run-down, substandard schools either closing down (good for everyone) or making the needed improvements.

One problem with American minorities, more so with blacks and hispanics than asians, is that they have poor cultural role models. Black children look up to rap stars and athletes that should be behind bars. Hispanics have the likes of George and Jennifer Lopez, neither of which provide much moral inspiration. These communities need a lot more Bill Cosbeys and Jaci Velasquezes. But again, this is a cultural problem and not a race problem.

[Bravus]

I know terms are there because they're useful, but 'reverse racism' is a very unfortunate one, IMO. Racism is racism, no matter who the perpetrator is and no matter who the victim is: any other assumption is racist! (i.e. assuming only black people can be victims of racism)

This picture is compounded by the issues of relative privilege: we tend to - quite appropriately - be more concerned about racism or other forms of prejudice where they are applied to those who are already disadvantaged. And some of the cries of 'reverse racism' go against that principle: they're the cries of the already privileged, afraid of losing some small fraction of that privilege. (And do they ask themselves why race becomes a criterion for addressing issues of privilege (i.e. because they have received certain privileges based almost entirely on their race.)? Not often.)

I wish we could get past categories of race entirely, and deal with people as people, but people in particular situations. If there were a better measure of relative wealth, affirmative action programs could operate on that basis, rather than on the basis of race, which would be fairer for everyone.

None of this stuff is directed at Chrys, it's a discussion of a major and complicated issue, but I think we need better terms for talking about race, class and privilege than 'reverse racism'.

[LynnDel]

IMO, Shane, vouchers would really MESS UP education in America for, oh, maybe ten years before things started to settle down. The education system is a big machine that moves slowly. Once things settle down, it would still be the children of the lower echelons who suffer. Vouchers will do most of them no good and would further stratify American education.

Under the voucher system, only the children of parents who care enough to do anything would benefit. Only the children of parents literate enough to know how to get vouchers and use them would benefit. I teach so many children whose parents either don't care (they just want them out of their hair as easily and inexpensively as possible), don't read, or can barely handle life and its situations as it is, without adding the complication of trying to research best schools, get their children into them, and arrange daily transportation.

Instead of equalizing educational opportunities, the best would get better, and the worst would get "worser". These poor kids would be worse off than ever before under the voucher system.

LD

[cricket]

I agree. I had a hard time trying to come up with another term. At first I had typed reverse discrimination....but....

Anyway, I do look forward to a time when we can equally respect and admire each others' differences--embrace them and not have any one class, race, etc., feeling superior toward another.

[Guest]

One thing that perpetuates racism is NFDMTTS.

[Pockey]

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One thing that perpetuates racism is NFDMTTS.

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What do you mean by that?

[Anthony!]

JimBob7:

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One thing that perpetuates racism is NFDMTTS.

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I feel like saying "Oh puhleeze, how is that so"?

OK, JimBob7, please show us all here cause and effect.

And remember, some of us here may have experience as a racist, or have been a victim of racism, and will probably be the first to challenge your statement. So I hope it is good.

Well.... we're waiting.....

[Guest]

LIKE I HAVE POSTED BEFORE....

NFDMTTS cater to the meism of the sheeple..which..promotes the Rom 8:7 and Jer 17:9 of SELF...

Read where Paul says that those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise..

Racism..is a caranl, flesh, fear, pride, animosity issue...as long as NFDMTTS are preached ..it will perpetuate this syndrome..

Jesus' life and death is the great equalizer...

we are all PINK inside and have RED blood..and have NOAH as a great grand daddy

[Dr. Shane]

Sister Lynndel, I understand where you are coming from. I used to be very opposed to vouchers. I debated the subject a few times and even scored some points on my opponents. However the more I debated it and researched the issue to prepare for debate, the more I relized my position against it was based mostly on fear: Fear of a big brother government (which we already have) and fear of change (which will always exist).

The voucher system would be no different than what the Pell grant or Stafford loan programs are now. If a student qualifies for a Pell grant or a Stafford loan they can take that money and go to any college they wish. Veterns can do the same with the GI Bill. Vouchers would be no different except they that elememtary and high school students could use them.

In areas that have used vouchers, studies have shown that only 20% of the students attending private school with vouchers had previously attended public school. That tells us that vouchers would not create a great migration of students from public to private schools. The areas that have used vouchers, like Cincinati, have a proven track record that our fears will not materialize when vouchers become reality.

Vouchers are another step to making the country freer. Poor students now have no choice what schools they attend. If their parents move a few miles, these students often have to change schools. Vouchers would allow a student gifted in music, art or athletics to choose the best school for his or her talents. The current system takes the students captive and only allows them choice if they have money.

[Bravus]

Since David, who posted the topic, is from the UK, can we *not* make it all about America? Not hating on America, but this is a broader issue, and just going down the American route can tend to exclude lots of the rest of the worldwide family...

[Dr. Shane]

As I stated earlier, I think the issue is more about culture than race. One of my best friends in college was a young blackman from Kenya. His father was a Baptist minister and as a result he hung out with mostly evagelical friends while he was here. He told me he disliked the American black culture and didn't have much in common the black population in America.

[Dr. Shane]

If lighter skin is more attractive why do so many whites lay out in the sun and try to get dark?

If lighter skin is more attractive why didn't I have more girlfriends when I was younger? I feel cheated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Pockey]

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Racism..is a caranl, flesh, fear, pride, animosity issue...as long as NFDMTTS are preached ..it will perpetuate this syndrome..

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Wow that is cynical. Let me guess, you're from Orange County, CA.