EGW, Australia & Womens Ordination

[Gregory Matthews]

I have copied the following in its entirety from a post on Maritime_SDA. I will comment on it later:

Quote:

=====QUOTE FROM ELLEN WHITE CD, RESEARCH DOCUMENTS=====

Appendix G

The Ordination of Deaconesses

By Arthur N. Patrick

“Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.” — Review and Herald, July 9, 1895.

Did Ellen White imply ordination by this statement? As Adventists in recent years have discussed the larger issue of ordination of women to the gospel ministry, they have disagreed sharply over her meaning in the 1895 Review article.

Now church records from the same period that appear to make Ellen White’s meaning clear have come to light.

Ellen White resided in Australia from 1891 to 1900. She lived in the suburbs of Sydney and the village of Cooranbong, close by the property that became Avondale College, from 1894 to 1900. Her son W. C. White, an Adventist minister, was also in Australia.

June 24, 1899, the Ashfield church in Sydney elected G. F. Goodman as elder. The church records tell us that he “was ordained as elder by the laying on of hands.” Clearly, Adventists at the time understood the laying on of hands as effecting ordination.

Which officers were ordained to their tasks? Again the Ashfield church minutes, in two separate entries, give us the answer. At the meeting on August 10, 1895, the nominating committee rendered its report. The record notes: “Immediately following the election, the officers were called to the front, where Pastors Corliss and McCullagh set apart the elder, deacons, [and] deaconesses by prayer and the laying on of hands.”

On Sabbath, January 6, 1900, Elder W. C. White presided over the regular Sabbath meeting at Ashfield. The clerk’s minutes note: “The previous Sabbath officers had been nominated and accepted for the current year, and today Elder White ordained and laid hands on the elders, deacon, and deaconesses.”

The page from W. C. White’s diary for this date confirms the Ashfield church’s records: “Spoke at Ashfield. Twenty-five present. Ordained J. Hindson Elder, Thos. Patchin Deacon, and Mrs. Brannyrane and Patchin Deaconesses.”

So Adventists living close to Ellen White in the 1890s, over a five-year period at least, ordained women along with men to local church office by prayer and the laying on of hands. Surely Ellen White would have instructed to the contrary if she had not intended ordination by her Review statement of 1895. Her son Elder White usually understood well the intent of her writings, and he officiated in the ordaining of women.

—Arthur N. Patrick is registrar at Avondale College, Australia.

23

[Copies of original Ashfield church minutes and the W.C. White diary are available at the Ellen G. White Estate Resource Centers.]

Appendix H

Clarence Crisler Responds To an Inquiry Concerning Ordination of Women

“March 12, 1916

“Mr. Clarence Crisler, Sanitarium [Calif.]

“Dear Brother: Will you please inform me in regard to the setting apart of women who can give some time to missionary work, by laying on hands in prayer found in Review and Herald back in the early part of the 90’s, probably back in about 1892 or 1893, from the pen of Sister White.

“The reason I ask for this, I was in a recent meeting where Elder Adross set aside women by the laying on of hands, and when I asked him for the authority for so doing, he referred me to you, and as I have been a Bible worker for a number of years and have recently been granted a ministerial license, I want this information.

“Please answer at once, as I want to hear from you before I go to the Southwestern Union Conference, which convenes April 7th. Please send me two or three copies of her statement as the president of our conference wants one.” Mrs. L. E. Cox, 134 Agarita Ave, San Antonio, Texas.

“March 22, 1916

“Mrs. L. E. Cox, San Antonio, Texas

“Dear Sister: I have your letter of the 12th inst., making inquiry regarding the ordination of women who give some time to missionary work—particularly to some statement which you believe to be found in a Review early in the 90’s, from the pen of Mrs. Ellen G. White.

“As this query will require some study on my part, and searching, and as I must go to Mountain View in the morning for a few days, I am under the necessity of asking that you excuse me from answering for a few days. Upon my return, early next week, I will endeavor to send you a reply, accompanying same, if possible, with the extracts called for. However, I might say that I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches. But of this I will speak more fully when I write again.

“I hope to write you about the 28th inst., and will address you as above. If you are leaving San Antonio for other parts, it would be well for you to leave a forwarding order, so mail addressed as above will reach you in due time at the Union Conference.” — Clarence Crisler.

“June 16, 1916

“Mrs. L. E. Cox

“Dear Sister: In my answer under date of March 22, I was unable to forward you copy of the Review article called for, but ventured to say, ‘I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches.’

“Since writing the above, I have found the article in question and have had same copied. Enclosed find a copy of this article. I am also forwarding copy to your local Conference president, Elder E. L. Neff; and to the president of your Union, Elder J. W. Christian, that they may know what I am sending to you.

25

“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action.

“And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister.

“This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public labor, and that none should ever be ordained; it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.” — C. C. Crisler

=====END QUOTE=====

Two points seem clear from the above:

1) There appears to be nothing wrong with laying hands on a woman to consecrate/ordain her, even according to Mrs. White's own words. This begs the question regarding one of the reasons some say Ellen White was not ordained in this manner.

2) Those women who were ordained in Mrs. White's day were ordained as deaconesses, which also agrees with the Bible and with other statements by Mrs. White regarding certain functions women should perform and not men. They were not ordained to eldership nor as pastors.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think that it makes some important points, even if they are not what GC understands.

[John317]

Quote:

Gregory Matthews (quoting Green Cocha):

1) There appears to be nothing wrong with laying hands on a woman to consecrate/ordain her, even according to Mrs. White's own words. This begs the question regarding one of the reasons some say Ellen White was not ordained in this manner.

2) Those women who were ordained in Mrs. White's day were ordained as deaconesses, which also agrees with the Bible and with other statements by Mrs. White regarding certain functions women should perform and not men. They were not ordained to eldership nor as pastors.

Yes, this is what I found at the Ellen White Estate here in Loma Linda. I posted some of those things the other day on the thread about Doug Batchelor. What you post here, I, too, saw in the folders at the Heritage Room. It does not lend support to the idea that Ellen White advocated women be ordained to the work of the church pastor or elder.

Who has said that Ellen White was "ordained in this manner"?

It's already well known, of course, that Ellen White called explicitly for women to be ordained to certain kinds of ministries, such as deacon, helping the poor, etc.

Here's a statement found in the folder pertaining to Ellen White's views of Ordination, entitled, "Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White:"

"For many years Ellen White was voted ministerial credentials by the Michigan Conference (see e.g., RH 9/10/1872, p. 102), and then later by the General Conference. However, she was never ordained by human hands, nor did she ever use the functions usually associated with the ministerial office. She never performed a wedding, organized a church, or conducted a baptism."

She was never given an individual credential in her own name until after the death of James White. Until then, the Michigan Conference voted to give the credential in the names of "James White and Mrs. E. G. White." He was the one who held the credential and used it to perform the duties of the ministerial office. She NEVER did. She was always addressed by, and known as, Mrs. White or Sister White, never as pastor or elder. She never wanted to be viewed as a church leader. She was "the Lord's messenger," called in her youth to be Jesus Christ's special messenger, and given the responsibility of writing messeges for God to the churches and the world. She was God's mouthpiece, not the mouthpiece of the church.

Further evidence that she was not ordained by human hands is that when she filled out biographical information for the GC records, she indicated that she hadn't been ordained. William Fagal's statement is, "She was not here denying that God had chosen and equipped her, but she was responding to the obvious intent of the question, indicating that there had never been an ordination ceremony carried out for her." See page 11 of "Ellen White and the Role of Women In the Church." WDF 212 (Ellen White Estate Branch Office, Loma Linda)

I'm curious to know how you explain Ellen White's total silence when the GC in 1881 rejected a request to ordain women to "the work of Christian ministry"?

If she opposed it, it's easy to explain why she said nothing. On that view, Ellen White said nothing because there was no reason to, since the church had already made the right decision. On the other hand, if she supported it, why didn't she speak out?

[Gregory Matthews]

John, you keep tellilng me that EGW was never ordained by a ceremony in which hands were laid upon her. I know that. I have stated such many times. I have never argued that point. The historical records clearly indicate that such is the case.

That is part of my frustration with you. You attempt to argue points with me in which I agree with you.

[Woody]

The example of Ellen White brings to question the need for the laying on of hands ... period.

(I think it far superior to be ordained by God rather than men. Especially the male species )

[John317]

Quote:

Gregory Matthews (quoting Green Cocha): There appears to be nothing wrong with laying hands on a woman to consecrate/ordain her, even according to Mrs. White's own words. This begs the question regarding one of the reasons some say Ellen White was not ordained in this manner.

I'm sincerely sorry that you're frustrated, Gregory, and I apologize for having said anything that makes you feel that way.

Please let me explain myself-- and I hope it's not at the cost of further frustration.

We're both in agreement that there's nothing wrong with laying hands on women to consecrate/ordain them per se. The mere act of ordaining is not at issue.

The use of the expression "begs the question" led me to believe Green Cocha was saying the "laying of hands" on women raises the question of why some say Ellen White was not ordained in this manner.

The reason I've said several times that Ellen White was not ordained is that there have been others-- not you-- who maintained that she must have been ordained by the church since she had the credential. Other posts said that it didn't matter whether she was ordained in a ceremony. Perhaps you didn't see those posts on the discussion about Doug Batchelor's preaching.

The quote that "some say Ellen White was not ordained," I took to mean that not all are in agreement that she wasn't ordained. I'm sorry I misunderstood your post. Please forgive me.

Again, I offer my sincere apology.

[Woody]

Quote:

The reason I've said several times that Ellen White was not ordained is that there have been others-- not you-- who maintained that she was ordained, or that it didn't matter whether she was ordained or not. Perhaps you didn't see those posts on the discussion about Doug Batchelor's preaching.

I would like to see the quote from anyone stating that Ellen White was ordained by men. She held the credentials of being ordained by men. And she was ordained of God.

Perhaps some clarification is needed before the accusations fly. If I stated Ellen White was ordained ... that would be a true statement. If I stated Ellen White was an ordained minister of the church ... that would be true because she held the credentials of an ordained minister. But, if I stated that she was ordained by the laying on of hands by men for the office of pastor .... then I would be wrong.

I think we ALL agree that Ellen White was "ordained".

Please everyone ... let's not put words in other people's mouths. It's always appropriate to ask for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions.

Just my two thoughts ... :)

[John317]

The church believes the ordination ceremony is important. So did Ellen White. She called for women and men to be ordained by the laying on of hands for the dedication of these people for service and ministry. It's essential that the church witness this public testimony, and it's supported by the Bible.

It isn't a magical formula, though, which is perhaps how some people view it, the same as some view Baptism.

[John317]

Quote:

Woody:

Perhaps some clarification is needed before the accusations fly....

Please everyone ... let's not put words in other people's mouths. It's always appropriate to ask for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions.

Why didn't you follow your own advice? It would have saved you a post. You assumed I was referring to you, evidently, but I wasn't.

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

[Woody]

Quote:

Woody:

Perhaps some clarification is needed before the accusations fly....

Please everyone ... let's not put words in other people's mouths. It's always appropriate to ask for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions.

Why didn't you follow your own advice? It would have saved you a post. You assumed I was referring to you, evidently, but I wasn't.

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

Again ... a little clarification would be helpful. At no time did I assume you were speaking to me. Where do you get this idea? Could you quote me in regards to what gave you that idea. I simply asked for a quote of ANYone who might have stated EGW was ordained by the laying on of hands of men for the office of pastor. If you can't provide that ... then I will just assume you assumed it just like you assumed that I thought you were talking about me.

Please ... it is always best to ask for clarification before jumping to conclusions.

I would however ... like to see the quotes you are referring to whether you were talking about my quotes or not.

[Woody]

Quote:

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

I think my post previous to your's spells out clearly what most of us believe . Yes, Ellen White was ordained by God.

[John317]

Quote:

Woody: At no time did I assume you were speaking to me. Where do you get this idea? Could you quote me in regards to what gave you that idea.

This:

Quote:

Woody: Perhaps some clarification is needed before the accusations fly. If I stated Ellen White was ordained ... that would be a true statement. If I stated Ellen White was an ordained minister of the church ... that would be true because she held the credentials of an ordained minister. But, if I stated that she was ordained by the laying on of hands by men for the office of pastor .... then I would be wrong.

[Woody]

Thanks John. I was speaking regarding generic reasoning. It was as an example. It was never my intention nor my purpose to think that you were speaking of me. I do now see how you could get that impression after reading it. But like I say ... it's always best to clarify. Words are often insufficient.

However ... this all is just 'skirting' the issue at hand here.

[Woody]

Now ... could we have the quotes of those "who maintained that she was ordained" that you were referring to. We now know that it wasn't Gregory and it wasn't me.

[John317]

Quote:

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

I think my post previous to your's spells out clearly what most of us believe . Yes, Ellen White was ordained by God.

Woody, no one is disputing that she was called and ordained of God.

The question has to do with the ordination of women by the church. Elders, church pastors, etc., and women working in certain ministries, are ordained in a different way than Ellen White was ordained. They are ordained in a church ceremony, by the laying on of human hands. When Ellen White indicated she had never been ordained, she was not referring to the call of Christ to be His special messenger. Why did she say she hadn't been ordained? Because she never was ordained. By saying this, she wasn't denying that God had called her to her prophetic ministry. This is exactly what William Fagal of the E.G. White Estate says in "Ellen White and the Role of Women in the Church," p. 11. Check it out; it's very clearly written and thorough.

[olger]

The feminist crowd is going to keep pushing on this issue - forever apparently. Unfortunately for them, the Bible texts that establish male leadership are too clear, and too numerous to explain away.

oG

[Woody]

Quote:

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

Quote:

Woody, no one is disputing that she was called and ordained of God.

It does get confusing. Someone will say ... Ellen White was never ordained. I will in return say ... oh yes she was. For she herself stated she was ordained by God.

This is the point. Women ARE called and ordained by God to serve as pastors. The ordaination by men with the laying on of hands ... is really don't all that important. But to withhold from them the same recognition that God has called them really makes little sense. Yes, God has called them ... but we prideful men don't want to acknowledge it. Well ... the women will continue to be ordained but we will just call it commissioning. Better yet ... some day all the men will switch to just be commissioned instead of ordained. No dif.

[Woody]

Ellen White was both a messenger and a pastor. Pastors were considered to be both messengers and pastors in EGW's days :

Ellen and James White shared many things. One of them were Pastoral Duties:

"In fulfilling their rather general pastoral duties, James and Ellen White were at .... " The Early Years p. 403

In fact ... they were both considered to be 'messengers' as this was the commonly used term for pastors of the time.

"As the "messengers" and friends of the cause committed to heralding the third angels message assembled in the commodious home of Jesse Thompson ...." EY 227

"So you see, dear brother, that in places where all is dark and dreary, a few week since, light is now springing up. Then let all the swift messengers that God has called, and still calling into the field, to give the loud cry of the third angel, move forward." EY 190

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained? ...no one is disputing that she was called and ordained of God.

Quote:

WOODY: It does get confusing. Someone will say ... Ellen White was never ordained. I will in return say ... oh yes she was. For she herself stated she was ordained by God.

No reason to be confused. It's relatively simple. Ellen White was never ordained by the church or by human hands. She was called by Christ to be His special messenger.

Pastors, elders, deacons, deaconess' are also called by Christ, but before they serve in those positions, they must be ordained by the church. No one can just walk into a church and say, "I'm here, you lucky people. Jesus wants me to be your pastor." Why not? Because if they could do that, there might be several people thinking they are the pastor or the elder, which would lead to more confusion than there already is. Two or more people might have a sermon prepared for the same church service on Sabbath. Also, there could be a real difference in the church as to what the church's beliefs are, or what the deacons' responsiblities and duties are for a particular week. There would be a disagreement over who represents the congregation to the conference, who's going to baptize new believers, or maybe who's going to chair the business meetings, etc.

So they must be recognized/acknowledged by the conference and the church. That happens in a special way when they are ordained, or they receive the laying on of hands. They may feel themselves to be called of God, but until the church acknowledges it, they can't occupy the position or office.

This is different from the spiritual gifts. People can use their gifts without being formally recognized by the church. For instance, if you believe the Lord's given you the spiritual gift of wisdom, or service, etc., you don't need to be ordained in order to use it for the uplifting of the church.

Quote:

WOODY: This is the point. Women ARE called and ordained by God to serve as pastors. The ordaination by men with the laying on of hands ... is really don't all that important.

Ask your pastor if all she needed was God's calling. I think she'll tell you it was pretty important for the church to ordain her. What would have happened if it hadn't? See what I mean?

[John317]

Quote:

Woody: Ellen White was both a messenger and a pastor. Pastors were considered to be both messengers and pastors in EGW's days :

Ellen and James White shared many things. One of them were Pastoral Duties:

"In fulfilling their rather general pastoral duties, James and Ellen White were at .... " The Early Years p. 403

Ellen White used the term "pastoral" and "pastor" in a fairly wide sense. She often used it, for instance, in the sense of "feeding the flock." Not only the minister did that, but pastor's wives and other women in the church. Some ministers weren't good pastors. Some ministers were good pastors, in which case they would be both pastor and minister. At the same time not all pastors are ordained ministers. See Manuscript Release 763, pp. 5-6; MR 761, page 10; GW (1948), page 337.

She wrote, "... workers should be appointed as needed, who will act as pastors to the flock..." 5 T 723

[Tom Wetmore]

If she gave it broad meaning, why do you give it such a narrow meaning?

[Gregory Matthews]

John:

The quotation that you cite to me was made by Green Cocha, as I posted. It was not made by me. I posted it. But, I did not make the statement.

I wonder if other citations that you post have the same degree of accuracy as what you said about me.

Gregory Matthews

[Gregory Matthews]

John317 said:

Quote:

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

I shake my head at this question.

No, we are not all agreed. This is a central point of disagreement.

I and others beleive that the issuance of the credentials of an ordained minister is the certification that EGW was ordained. What all informed people agree upon is that EGW was not ordained by laying on of hands.

The historical records show that the early denominational leaders beleived that EGW was ordained by God and that is why she was issued the credentials of an ordained SDA minsiter.

If you need to ask the question, it is no wonder that this discussion has gone in the direction that it has gone.

[Gregory Matthews]

John317 posted the following:

Quote:

Here's a statement found in the folder pertaining to Ellen White's views of Ordination, entitled, "Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White:"

"However, she was never ordained by human hands, nor did she ever use the functions usually associated with the ministerial office. She never performed a wedding, organized a church, or conducted a baptism."

In other comments John has made a big point of the fact that EGW never performed certain functions of a local pastor.

What John does not tell us is that in earlier days the SDA church ordained many men who never performed those same functions of a local pastor. That it true for A. L. White, the grandson of EGW. In the first half of the 1900s it was true for a large number of men.

It is only in recent years that the SDA denomination has tended to restrict ministerial ordination to people who perform such. Yet, I can cite a recent case (within the past ten years) when such was done. But, I will not embarrass by mentioning the name.

[Woody]

John317 said:

Quote:

Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White's was never ordained?

I shake my head at this question.

No, we are not all agreed. This is a central point of disagreement.

I and others beleive that the issuance of the credentials of an ordained minister is the certification that EGW was ordained. What all informed people agree upon is that EGW was not ordained by laying on of hands.

The historical records show that the early denominational leaders beleived that EGW was ordained by God and that is why she was issued the credentials of an ordained SDA minsiter.

If you need to ask the question, it is no wonder that this discussion has gone in the direction that it has gone.

Thanks Gregory. Good Post.

Our early pioneers were not ordained by our church. They just got about doing the work of God. For instance ... the case of James White. He was never ordained by our church. Yet, he held the credentials of an ordained minister of our church and well represented our church as a founder. Ellen White held the credentials of an ordained minister. Just because the church didn't ordain her by the laying on of hands ... does not mean that she was not ordained.

[Neil D]

It has occurred to me before this that a person can be a minister and never perform all the dutys of a minister and still be considered a legitament minister...

I wonder why we are splitting hairs here with women and men ministers....

Also there are some overlapping definitions that is occurring...

While we all are consider ministers, some of us are recognised by the church of God's calling...In the past, we had some women who had the gift of ministering, and were ordained.

Today, we are not ordaining women due to the tradition that there is no proof from the bible that women were ordained. And yet, we can show that Pheobe was a ministering deconess...we just don't know if there was a ordination ceremony performed on her.

We have an unknown person, who is likely to be a woman, who was a highly regarded Apostle. Apostle is also known as "one who is sent"..a messenger if you will. Not "a man who was sent", but rather "ONE who is sent".

So far, among the duties of a minister or an apostle, there is nothing precluding women to the office. Just the recognition from the Church of God's calling....something in which the Church is not willing to do...recognise God's working among us...