What Kind Of People Leave The Church and WHY?

[Overaged]

Does the following Bible text describe people who leave the Church?

1Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

What is meant by the phrase "not of us?" Is this all we have to do to be a member in "good standing," to be "one of them?" Can a person leave the Church, and NOT fit the descriptors in this text?

[Bravus]

If this is a genuine query, I can probably shed a little light, since I am also a member of an ex-SDA forum. But to some extent it's already asked in a prejudicial way that assumes the fault is something innate in the people.

So how about it, Overaged? Do you genuinely want to know something about the range of people who leave the church, where they end up and the wide variety of reasons they leave? And can you promise that as far as possible the discussion will be about the attempt to understand, rather than to judge and condemn?

(It's possible to say that you believe they have made the wrong decision, that their reasoning is wrong, and so on, but to phrase that in terms of your own beliefs rather than of their characteristics, if that makes sense.)

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure out the purpose and focus of the thread.

[karl]

If we're trying to think all the way around this, let's also ask the question, "What kind of people STAY IN the church, and why?"

Once we know the difference(s) between the two groups, we can ask whether anything should be done about it.

[Gail]

There might be a scenario when "not being of us" is a good thing...

But if one is not really with "us", wouldn't it be the honest thing to acknowledge it?

[karl]

Is the problem "us" who stay, or "they" who leave? It is a lot easier to say "they" are the problem than to say "us" is the problem. What if "they" stayed and "us" left. What would the church be like then?

[Gail]

Is the problem "us" who stay, or "they" who leave? It is a lot easier to say "they" are the problem than to say "us" is the problem. What if "they" stayed and "us" left. What would the church be like then?

I think it's safe to say that John who wrote that wasn't the problem in his instance.

But would it be as safe for us to say so out loud in ours?

With only half the information such a statement could be taken as an arrogant one. Or it could be totally true and in that case a comfort to the ones who were left.

[Woody]

While I have the upmost respect for overaged ... I do have to agree with Bravus on this one.

[Guest truthseeker007]

I left the church, for i did not feel part of a movement. If i cannot make myself usefull for Christ, then what s the point of sitting in the church. Furthermore my church did footwashing, but i did not feel much warmth. They kept the rituals, but they forgot the true meaning behind them; love. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to set an example; we don t have nasty feet, so i don t see the point anymore of washing each others feet. But i do agree that it is an important ritual to remember Christ.

However, i still believe the church fundamentals and decided to live for Christ. So maybe to some inside the church i am a heretic, but i am just doing what i think is the right thing to do, and that s not for selfish reasons.

Anyway, i ve sinned greatly. Now i feel lost and forgotten. But i deserve to feel like this, i did some terribles things. Please pray that Christ his blood may be powerfull enough to erase my sins, and God s holy spirit may help me overcome sin.

Kind Regards

[Gail]

Hi, TS- good to see you again!

You are not forgotten by us on here! Drop in anytime!

TS, if Christ's blood is not powerful enough for any kind of sinner, then we are all lost. His blood can cover and His power can help you walk in His way. :)

[phkrause]

While I have the upmost respect for overaged ... I do have to agree with Bravus on this one.

Not sure about your post Woody, and I agree that Bravus has a great post, but I think Overaged has possed a great question! I think he's just throwing it out for opinions.

From my perspective, what I've observed, is those that have left, of course not all there are other reasons also, have felt that coming to church would make them hippocrits (sp). My question to them is, isn't church for hippocrits. I find that this is only an excuse, at least in my opinion.

pk

[jasd]

>>Anyway, i ve sinned greatly. Now i feel lost and forgotten. But i deserve to feel like this, i did some terribles things. Please pray that Christ his blood may be powerfull enough to erase my sins, and God s holy spirit may help me overcome sin.<<

We are all burdened: I think that even St Paul - was, likewise - burdened...

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [i do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

To hang on to those things which might destroy us - will destroy us!

[Bravus]

OK, let me have a quick bash at it.

First, there is no general rule for everyone who has left the church: there are as many reasons as there are people. And, with all due respect, pk, their reasons make sense to them: they don't necessarily need to make sense to you.

So let me attempt some broad general categories:

1. I think there are broadly four 'destinations' where people who leave the SDA church end up in their faith journeys (though it's possible that what are final destinations for some are waypoints on the way somewhere else for others). These are:

(a) another church community very like SDAism but different in some respect, whether that be more conservative or traditional, or Sunday-keeping, or whatever

( a kind of solo spiritual experience where they still believe in God but don't believe it's important to attend any church

© agnosticism of various degrees of 'strength', from 'I'm not convinced that God is there' to 'it's impossible to know whether God is there' to 'God is there but he's not as advertised by the church'.

(d) atheism

2. There is an almost endless list of possible reasons and processes for leaving the church, and to some extent the process directs the destination, but not completely. Reasons I'm familiar with include:

(a) studied themselves out 1: studied the Bible a lot and discovered that they could no longer reconcile it with SDA teachings - these people tend to end up in other Christian denominations

( studied themselves out 2: read the Bible a lot, but lots of other stuff too - books from all sorts of perspectives, other religious traditions, atheist authors, science, whatever - these people end up in a wide range of places, depending on what they study

© thought themselves out: just found that they could no longer make all the beliefs fit together logically, or fit with their experience of life and the world

(d) abused out 1: many, many of my Ex-SDA friends were physically or sexually abused by church members, and the organisation protected the abusers and confounded the abuse on the abused. This is a familiar story all over the world in all religious traditions, and it certainly happens in Adventism. The abuse is one thing, but the institutional response is another.

(e) abused out 2: other ex church employers were 'abused' by the formal organisation in terms of pay, conditions, demands, family or in some other way - often as a result of the various schisms and controversies in the church (e.g. Ford, origins, etc) or just because the organisation sometimes behaves more like a business than like Jesus. This is also *very* often associated with the end of a marriage: one or other partner feels the church has exacerbated the situation and treated that person badly - particularly for pastors who divorce.

(f) drifted out - for some, they just attend less and less, and eventually stop. This occurs for a variety of reasons, but probably relates to a feeling that church is not meeting any need they perceive.

One that those who remain in the church often impute to those who leave, but that I have never actually observed 'in the wild': 'the rules are too tough and I'd rather do the drink, drugs and party thing'. Not saying it never happens, but I've never seen that *as the reason for leaving*: once having left some people no doubt do move into that lifestyle... but surprisingly few, particularly given the church's claim that it will happen to everyone...

Anyway, just some thoughts from an observer. As you can see, some pertain to the church, some to beliefs, some to schisms and some to the individuals. It's why I say placing all the odium on the 'leavers' as just unhelpful - if our goal is to understand, and even to perhaps stem the flow. We need to take a clear-eyed look at the problem to have any chance of solving it, or even mitigating it.

[Overaged]

If this is a genuine query, I can probably shed a little light, since I am also a member of an ex-SDA forum. But to some extent it's already asked in a prejudicial way that assumes the fault is something innate in the people.

So how about it, Overaged? Do you genuinely want to know something about the range of people who leave the church, where they end up and the wide variety of reasons they leave? And can you promise that as far as possible the discussion will be about the attempt to understand, rather than to judge and condemn?

(It's possible to say that you believe they have made the wrong decision, that their reasoning is wrong, and so on, but to phrase that in terms of your own beliefs rather than of their characteristics, if that makes sense.)

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure out the purpose and focus of the thread.

Bravus; and Woody

The purpose of this thread has already been stated in the OP. Your comments re my motive are totally unwarranted; and Bravus; I did not ask you or anyone to be a big expert on the subject. Your post "shedding a little light" comes across as you being the "expert, and "showing" us something. If you don't think my post is "genuine; then why would you even bother with your patronizing mumbo-jumbo?

[Bravus]

Nice. Guess I should have waited for your response before posting.

All I was doing was sharing my personal experience: which is what a discussion forum is all about. Any perception that I thought I was any kind of expert is all in your head.

Happy to continue the discussion with anyone who's interested: but this response suggests to me that the intention of the OP *was* to just have a 'bash church leavers' thread.

[Overaged]

>>Anyway, i ve sinned greatly. Now i feel lost and forgotten. But i deserve to feel like this, i did some terribles things. Please pray that Christ his blood may be powerfull enough to erase my sins, and God s holy spirit may help me overcome sin.<<

We are all burdened: I think that even St Paul - was, likewise - burdened...

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [i do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

To hang on to those things which might destroy us - will destroy us!

hey, thanks for your testimony. I really appreciate it. I think your experience happens a lot to people who feel that church members condemn them for certain types of 'wrong-doing." It can be very discouraging. A verse that has been very meaningful to me is as follows:

Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

[Overaged]

Nice. Guess I should have waited for your response before posting.

All I was doing was sharing my personal experience: which is what a discussion forum is all about. Any perception that I thought I was any kind of expert is all in your head.

Happy to continue the discussion with anyone who's interested: but this response suggests to me that the intention of the OP *was* to just have a 'bash church leavers' thread.

Well whats not in my head is you questioning my motives for no reason - kind of sours the rest of your "light"

[Bravus]

I didn't assume anything at all about your motives. I asked. I gave you the opportunity to explain your own motives.

And it's true, my reactions may also have been influenced by past experiences.

I was going to apologise for misjudging or impugning your motives, but I didn't, I just asked.

Nonetheless, I apologise if I caused offence.

[Gregory Matthews]

Overaged: Your response to Bravus and Woody leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Overaged]

Gregory; I can't help that at all. it is your choice to have that taste in your mouth. I found Bravus' response to be disgusting. If that's "wrong" (which it obviously is) then I guess I stand convicted, way before I ever had a chance to say anything. If you have nothing of value to offer re the OP, why bother? Your comment means absolutely nothing. Bravus' posts show that he did indeed judge me as not being sincere in my motives, and as being one who wanted to bash people who leave the Church. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you knew my personal situation; you and Bravus would have just buttoned your lip.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree with what Bravus posted in post #358945 ("let me have a quick bash at it.") although I don't think anything he mentioned in that post is unique to Adventism. I think that is pretty much true for all church and even for some other organizations like 12 Step groups, Masons and other similar groups.

Adventist churches range greatly from one to another in their warmth, friendliness and activity level. Individuals also range greatly. Some individuals can join and group and make a lot of friends right away regardless of the atmosphere. Others are more withdrawn and need someone to come up to them and initiate a friendship. So the reason some stick around and others leave is often a combination of a variety of things with everyone involved.

[Liz]

Does the following Bible text describe people who leave the Church?

1Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

What is meant by the phrase "not of us?" Is this all we have to do to be a member in "good standing," to be "one of them?" Can a person leave the Church, and NOT fit the descriptors in this text?

I think this is one of those questions that if you ask a hundred different people who have left the church, you will get a hundred different answers. I think that most people leave, because their needs aren't being met. One is supposed to meet with like-minded Christians, but what do you do when you find yourself isolated within your own congregation?

And while I believe one can "leave the church" but still be by Christ's side, I think that one can be a "member in good standing" in the church and still not know who Christ is.

[Dr. Shane]

When a member first leaves the church is the time to reach out to the person. However we need to respect their right to leave. If after contacting them, they express no interest in returning, I think we need to leave the issue between them and God.

Our church is buying a name label machine and software that will track church attendance. That will allow our church to send out an email, card and follow up with a visit when a member's attendance changes.

[Overaged]

Yes; I am sure that's true that there are a lot of different answers. I was hoping that people would exchange notes on this subject here, as I am quite interested in the subject.

In the OP; I had asked about 1 John 2:19. I was wondering if it could be possible that "they" was referring to people who left the Church. But now, after reading the context of this verse; it gets even more shocking:

1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Is that what the Bible is telling us here? That people who leave the Church are "antichrists?"

[Neil D]

Is that what the Bible is telling us here? That people who leave the Church are "antichrists?"

OOOOhh maaaan....What a biased point of view!

The fact that YOU didn't stop them, and that it was YOUR responsibility to stop them, echos the response of Adam..." God, YOU made the woman! It was her fault that I became the way that I did!" What absolute non-sense!

You are obsolving any blame for thier leaving on THIER choice. It couldn't possibly because that they took offense to points of view like this one? It couldn't possibly be the fact that your point of view was the least bit offensive because it was sooooo thought out.... Yeah, and the Pope will convert next week as soon as he truely reads Ex 20.8....Yeah, right!

[Bravus]

Or, for another take on the issue.

The 'church' in those texts is obviously not the SDA church but the Christian church as a whole.

In that sense, it's actually uncontroversial to say that at least some of those who leave the Christian church entirely are 'anti-Christ': presumably that's why they leave Christ's church. There may be others who are not, as well: logically 'all antichrists leave the church' does not imply 'all who leave the church are antichrists'.