What Kind Of People Leave The Church and WHY?

[Bravus]

Just a couple of verses later (and you know what they say about texts without context), we get:

Quote:

22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

So this discussion is definitely not about every person who leaves the church. It is about a specific group of people of the time, who had left the church, and who were specifically trying to teach the people of the church that Jesus was not the promised Messiah and Saviour.

Hope that's helpful.

[Overaged]

So this discussion is definitely not about every person who leaves the church.

True; I started this discussion, based simply on a cursory reading of vs 19 as i quoted above. Since the subject of people leaving the church is of interest to me; I thought that perhaps there are several ideas that could be a part of this topic.

But I guess if someone has a problem with that, they can just use that great new word Woody came up with in "that other thread..." LOL, I can't even say it so I will wait on him to show up here and repeat it for our convenience.

You know; it's almost as if those "liars" mentioned in the verses you referred to are actually members who have not left the Church. I wonder how much such ones contribute to people leaving because they always feel so condemned by same?

[insx]

Gregory's post doesn't mean "absolutely nothing". Read it again and see it as a plea for a Christian brother to act a bit more, well, Christian.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Is that what the Bible is telling us here? That people who leave the Church are "antichrists?"

No,it's telling us that those who are working hardest against Christianity are those who were once members, but were never truly converted.

[insx]

Trying to address the question now. 1 John 2:19 seems to be saying that they left because their hearts were never really in it. I suppose it also applies to someone who leaves the church for some petty reason. It also strikes me that one could be in good and regular standing and still not be 'one of us'.

And yes, I think someone could leave the church even though their heart and motives were good. One can only take so much. Some churches can be pretty awful places to be, especially if those abuse stories are true. That horrified me, btw. I've never had any personal experience of abuse in church, neither have I had anyone confide in me about it.

If I ever left the church it would probably be out of frustration over the lack of movement. I find it best to stay and try to create some.

[Haldog]

It is obvious to me that John is referring to the many "antichrist" that are in the church (not the SDA church, but the church body"

Then John goes on to explain that it is those who deny that Jesus is the Christ.

I take this to mean those who look for their salvation any place but in Jesus Christ. This means in law-keeping, diet, life-style, etc. Any thing whatsoever for our salvation except Jesus Christ is antichrist.

My 2 cents...

[OzarkWoman]

If we're trying to think all the way around this, let's also ask the question, "What kind of people STAY IN the church, and why?"

Once we know the difference(s) between the two groups, we can ask whether anything should be done about it.

I can say, for myself only here, that even though I am not a member of SDA (YET), I like the church because it is more conservative and fundamental in their views toward and with the Bible. The one that I attend is conservative, but not overly so, which means that there is a mixture of people that are members and that go there. There are Vegetarians, Vegans, people who eat by the Old Testament Law, people who eat what they wish, people who are very fundamental in their beliefs and those that are not so much. I like the mixture and I absolutely adore the pastor of this church because he has a good grasp of the Bible and how SDA relates with it and people.

[Mark Aurelius]

One that those who remain in the church often impute to those who leave, but that I have never actually observed 'in the wild': 'the rules are too tough and I'd rather do the drink, drugs and party thing'.

Is your list of reasons from self-reporting in a forum? Maybe the desire to break the rules is a subconscious thing and the thinking/studying oneself out is the socially acceptable face to show.

The thoughts or study may well of course have a level of validity. However, I know of one guy who was uncomfortable in the SDA church, partly I think because of failed relationships with women, maybe some earlier embarrassment, and he explained to me with a couple of texts how SDA doctrine about the 10 Commandments was wrong.

The funny thing is I had recently read those same texts in the greek and had noticed how the nuance of the greek words supported the SDA interpretation. I didn't want to say that because it was obvious to me that it was for personal reasons, but since the SDA culture tends to emphasize truth-seeking that would be hard to admit.

In another case, I was flatting with an SDA girl who was active in the church but she met a friend who got her it seemed overnight back into drinking, smoking, bringing guys back to the flat. At least for one weekend.

Again there was a guy in our church who was single, dated a girl unsuccessfully and complained about the young-family orientation at church. He doesn't come any more, but I don't know what he is doing. I miss him, and hope he hasn't drifted back into the drugs and gangs he was into before. But maybe there are some who don't match the demographic and feel uncomfortable.

[Mark Aurelius]

I thought of another one. A girl in a church I grew up with was told off by a concerned member for wearing trousers to church. Sheesh, yeah, I know. Probably not the style from I Dream of Genie though. Also, she was struggling with lesbianism. And the expectations of her mother to have a normal wedding.

In the end she just came out of all that claustrophobia, and shacked up with her lover.

[Mark Aurelius]

Ah.. another one.. that very concerned person who disapproved of trousers. She had been in and out of church. She had a difficult father who was not a member, and a quiet pious mother. While out she was into dating criminals and taking drugs. In the church she was a concerned sister, very keen on a certain orthodoxy. But also a Fordite

[Gregory Matthews]

Overaged: I simply stated how you came across to me. If you consider it to be of no value, O.K. That is your choice.

[Bravus]

Marcus, some forum experiences, but lots of face-to-face church experiences as well. I still reckon in most cases the drink or drugs or whatever is a symptom rather than a cause... though I'd be the first to say that there's no rule: it's all exceptions.

Seems like in each of your case studies it was largely others' influence and others' expectations, both positive and negative, that were important: that bolsters the case that the issues are more likely to be various relationships, rather than some innate quality in the individuals who leave.

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

I was baptized when I was 13. When I was 19, I left the church to see the "world" and joined the

US Navy. It had nothing to do with the church or its doctrines. It had nothing to do with people

offending me. It didn't take me long to find out the "world" had little to offer, so I started

sneaking back in to the church. It helped a lot that I met some loving and caring SDA Christians

along the way who gave me encouragement.

My wife's sister was married to a SDA minister. He was messing around with another woman and was

exposed by his own daughter. This man was loved and catered to by the church members, but his wife

and daughter were totally ignored. They no longer attend church.

One of my former partners was a second generation SDA raised on EGW. My impression was that he

probably studied more EGW writings than the Bible. When another physician came into the group who

held different views, and with Walter Rea and Ford coming along about the same time, he was just

blown away. He left the SDAC, got rid of all his EGW books, and is now a dedicated Sunday-keeping

Christian.

My own son was raised in an SDA home and went through our school system from first grade through

high school. He was pecked on and ostracized by his fellow students (SDAs) when he was advanced from

the first to the third grade. He was treated as a pariah in high school while in a SDA academy. He

confided to us years later to our horror that his treatment was so bad he thought there was something wrong with

him and even contemplated suicide. We had no idea. He claims he was totally turned off by the hypocrisy at the academy.

He said his fellow students AND some of the teachers ridiculed other religions. Anyway, we heard enough

negative bibes about SDAs that we decided to send him to a public university after high school. No doubt my wife and I had our own contribution to his disillusionment. He goes to a Baptist church today, and has nothing good to say about the SDAC.

As you can see, the experiences and reasons of these people near and dear to me for leaving the church

have little in common.

[Guest]

Trying to address the question now. 1 John 2:19 seems to be saying that they left because their hearts were never really in it. I suppose it also applies to someone who leaves the church for some petty reason. It also strikes me that one could be in good and regular standing and still not be 'one of us'.

And yes, I think someone could leave the church even though their heart and motives were good. One can only take so much. Some churches can be pretty awful places to be, especially if those abuse stories are true. That horrified me, btw. I've never had any personal experience of abuse in church, neither have I had anyone confide in me about it.

If I ever left the church it would probably be out of frustration over the lack of movement. I find it best to stay and try to create some.

Good for you. How's the weather in Essex?

[bluebelle]

This may be cynical but sometimes people stay because there's something in it for them. I know that for me, watching 2 different factions or points of view go at it during church meetings has lead me to just back off from church life. As others have said there's also the possibility that the church atmosphere is unwelcoming, warm or isolating. Sometimes members can't or won't express simple acceptance towards someone just getting involved. Case in point- a young man had begun to attend our church and was on fire for the Lord. Around the time he was considering baptism he was stopped by a member who harshly criticized him for having an earring and told him he could not enter. He never came back. I have been told several times in different ways that our church is filled with crackpots "but that shouldn't stop you" from coming to church.

[Dr. Shane]

I was baptized when I was 10 and left the church after the 8th grade. I was 14. I got into drinking and drugs. Leaving the church for me had nothing to do with the church. Everyone in the church had always been kind and generous toward me and my family. I just had my own ideas of what I wanted in life and it didn't include the church.

After much pain and drug rehab, I returned to the church when I was 21. I was rebaptized a couple of years later. I have had more "conflicts" in the church since I returned than I can ever remember when I was younger. However a lot has to do with my reaction and my tendency to make mountains out of mole hills. Overall, my church experience has been positive and I have learned the truth that I only get as much out of something as I put into it.

[cardw]

I guess I must be an anti-Christ because I don't believe that Jesus was a messiah or a savior.

I'm not anti-Jesus per se. I do appreciate the insights that Jesus brings to the table of the human condition.

I guess I see much of this discussion involved in just another way to separate people into the in and out groups. I think that is one of the particular weaknesses of Christian culture. It seems particularly obsessed with trying to determine who is in and who is out.

It seems like Christians throughout history haven't been willing to simply allow another group to have a different opinion without killing them either literally or socially.

Now before anyone says well so do other groups, I'll admit that to be true. But you have to admit that there is a lot of language in the Bible dedicated to who should be in and who should be out.

[Neil D]

I have been told several times in different ways that our church is filled with crackpots "but that shouldn't stop you" from coming to church.

Excuse me, but if a person is hitting his head against a wall, isnt a clear example of insanity? If our chruch is filled with crackpots and insane people, why would a normal person want to stay there???

Perhaps, instead of leaving due to disagreement with doctrines, bad relationships or just plain outright disgust, perhaps they are being more biblical and creating HOME churches..which is a new trend in Christianity...Suggest you consider looking at

Home2home.com for complete details of the Simple Church....

[teresaq]

This may be cynical but sometimes people stay because there's something in it for them. I know that for me, watching 2 different factions or points of view go at it during church meetings has lead me to just back off from church life. As others have said there's also the possibility that the church atmosphere is unwelcoming, warm or isolating. Sometimes members can't or won't express simple acceptance towards someone just getting involved. Case in point- a young man had begun to attend our church and was on fire for the Lord. Around the time he was considering baptism he was stopped by a member who harshly criticized him for having an earring and told him he could not enter. He never came back. I have been told several times in different ways that our church is filled with crackpots "but that shouldn't stop you" from coming to church.

then there are those who are into denial, start turning off and becoming unfeeling, detached, out of touch with reality, while believing at the same time, that they are changing into this non-human, that they are "overcoming their problems"....

we can accept the blame for the bad behavior of others, "we are over-reacting", or whatever excuse we make up, be it in the dysfunctional family or church....and yes we then get to be a "part of it", "fit in" but at what price to our mortal souls, not to mention our sanity in the here and now...?

changing to fit in with unholiness makes us unfit and unsafe to be around...

yet Jesus managed to stay in the church, but without living in denial, nor making Himself at fault, nor blaming the victims....

[teresaq]

Anyway, i ve sinned greatly. Now i feel lost and forgotten. But i deserve to feel like this, i did some terribles things.

no you dont!!

you have a choice, continue doing penance-punishing yourself-which makes you a catholic...

or accept Christs payment for you, as undeserving as you, and i am just as undeserving as anything you have done-which makes you protestant.

i hope you heard the care and concern under the "rough exterior".

God knows everything you have done and how lacking you are. but He doesnt hold that against you. He only pities and loves you!! little by little you will get to know Him and learn to rest in Him... :)

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks Teresa, i wish i could believe Jesus died for me. But i can never believe that, because i am weak and stupid. Furthermore i have got sin running through my veins. I feel bad and depressed all the time. All i ve got that makes my life bearable is watching adult movies, televison, music and that sort of stuff. I have asked God many times to pull me out of the mud. But it is obvious i am worth nothing, and honoustly that s ok with me. I ve did the best i could in my miserable sinfull state, it was not enough, but at least i never sold my soul, i didn t take the easy way out. I believe Jesus died for some people but not for me. But just because i am not saved, it does not mean i don t want other people to get to know to learn the truth. So often i tell people about the truth, when i see they are good people who just need some good direction in their life.

For me, i don t even care anymore whether i get saved. Eternal death s got to be easy because life is so hard and painfull. So for me eternal destruction is like being in paradise. I am so tired of struggling, not achieving my aims, fighting against my own flesh, etc. I decided to continue living so i can reach out to some people God does care about. If they can get to heaven because i told em the truth, then i ve did the best i could possibly do.

Thanks for your encouragments, but really Jesus did not die for me. That s like saying that water can burn. However sometimes i see people, and i see that they were like me before i got to be possessed with sin, and i know they still have a chance.

[SivartM]

truthseeker... the fact that you are alive right now is proof that God cares about you. Jesus died for you whether you believe it or not.

[Overaged]

Quote:

by truthseeker007 -Thanks for your encouragments, but really Jesus did not die for me. That s like saying that water can burn. However sometimes i see people, and i see that they were like me before i got to be possessed with sin, and i know they still have a chance.

Thanks for sharing some of your story truthseeker007. You still have a chance too my friend. Did you know that with God even water can burn? Read the following passage for more info:

1Ki 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

1Ki 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

1Ki 18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

1Ki 18:34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

1Ki 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

Truthseeker007 I think you have hit at the core of “the human condition" – this fight between hopelessness/despair and joy/purpose and meaning. It is a sad commentary that the Church often does not show and practice more hope that people like you and I would want to stay in, and take all our friends by the hand and bring them in too. Many reasons and anecdotal evidence has been presented here as to what kind of people leave the church; and as much as most of those do have some merit – that is they are true; I see the deepest underlying reason being as there is no hope for the one who has been abused, has become discouraged, or is going through something terrible that other church members cannot easily deal with.

One of the reaons I still have hope though truthseeker007 is that there are a few Godly people in most churches who really seem to be in touch, and who really seem to care. In the same way you are seeking out people to encourage; these people seek out those in the Church who need encouragement and help, and they literally don’t care what you have done – they still want to help and bless you.

I have done some nasty things. I am still very rough around the edges. I have experienced so much pain and suffering, and then to add all the insults received from churches; it’s almost too much some days. But one dear soul at church has always tried to bless me and keep me focused on Jesus. No matter what I tell this person I have done, they always look at me with a sincere smile, and start their reply with “God just loves everyone so much.” There is no way I can convince this person otherwise, no matter what I say or do! This fact, along with the following Bible verse, remind me of the following promise:

Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

“I will give thee people for thy life,” is a promise I have seen come to life in my life, both through someone at church; and at times, through others outside the church. This same person also taught me the following:

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So, you see truthseeker007, even if you or I can PROVE that we are a real “dog;” as long as we are alive, there is hope for us in Christ. The reason is that dead people don’t know anything, but with we who are alive, we can still know that God keeps His promises, inspite of a sometimes very dysfunctional church/church members; and despite the fact that life can be so hard.

There isn’t anyone, no matter who, that Jesus did not die for truthseeker007. John 6:37 says: “IF ANYONE comes to Me; I will in no wise cast him out.”

Perhaps, the kind of people who leave church; or who won't join one are ones to whom the church failed to give hope to. But there is hope to be had! (in Jesus).

[Overaged]

Why try to reinvent whe wheel Neil?

The same problems will just follow you to the "home church."

[Overaged]

Ah.. another one.. that very concerned person who disapproved of trousers. She had been in and out of church. She had a difficult father who was not a member, and a quiet pious mother. While out she was into dating criminals and taking drugs. In the church she was a concerned sister, very keen on a certain orthodoxy. But also a Fordite

This touches on what I said 2 posts ago, how that the kind of people who leave, simply don't have hope - hope in Christ. Such ones come from ALL walks of life. All social classes seem subject to this dilemna.