What Kind Of People Leave The Church and WHY?

[Overaged]

truthseeker... the fact that you are alive right now is proof that God cares about you. Jesus died for you whether you believe it or not.

[Overaged]

God knows everything you have done and how lacking you are. but He doesnt hold that against you. He only pities and loves you!! little by little you will get to know Him and learn to rest in Him...

A very Godly lady whom I had first had contact with on this forum, likely ten years ago now, (Stan, have you been around that long??), sent me something in the mail for my fiftieth birthday. You wouldn’t believe how “onery” I was back then – if you think I am now! However, she is one of those precious souls who lives with belief, that God just loves everyone so much:

With Wings As Eagles

(God’s Help For Our Lives)

You could have chosen to be like the hummingbird

Greedily tasting each flower

Or maybe like the woodpecker

As he hammers away for hours

Or, you might have been as the swallow

Graceful and swift in flight

Or even like the “wise old owl”

(yet he still asks who each night)

But God promised that you won’t get weary

In the tasks He has planned for you

As He taught the eagle to soar o’er the storm

He will daily your strength renew

I have chosen to be the Eagle and go back to Church.

When my friend sent me this poem; she also enclosed two scripture verses, as captions, under two pictures of the eagle:

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”

“They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength’ They shall mount up with wings as eagles…” Isa 40:31

At the bottom of this little home made card, she signed it, and said: “May The Holy Spirit draw ever closer to you and all your family, as I know you draw closer to Him each day.” This little card was even lovingly trimmed with those old “pinking shears” that left a decorative edge, and I couldn’t help but wonder why on earth someone would go to such trouble over me – I have no hope, no purpose, the church seems so abusive and unattainable; yet this little message in the card sent to me has not lost it’s power over the years. Infact, it has grown in power. Earlier this morning, I got a call from a church member in my area. I had asked for prayer for something really urgent about a week ago, and I have not yet been to this church; but he took the time to call and see how things were going. When I told him that the prayer was answered, we both just praised the Lord over the phone. He asked me to read some verses in Isaiah 43, and well; many years after I had left the church, the same message keeps coming at me with the same power:

Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

God will put people in our life who will give us hope. It may take time; and a great long process, but it will happen. Hope in Christ cannot be extinguished by anything we go through. The church needs to learn how to experience and to impart this message so that NO ONE will want to leave.

While we could sit around wishing someone in the church would do this for us; we can exercise the option to just go back and do this to others ourselves! With some things you just need to be FIRST!

[insx]

Good for you. How's the weather in Essex?

For mid May it's been really chilly. Today was a bit warmer and we're hoping for another warm day tomorrow for our daughter's birthday party in the park.

[Guest]

I hope your daughter has a wonderful birthday. It is way too hot here in North Carolina.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Sometimes, things are not as they first appear. People wonder – why did the Egyptians esteem the vile rot-eating vulture? That rot-eating vulture was esteemed because – of all life,

it soared the highest - drawing nearest to Gd

and “touched the face of God.” (--John Gillespie Magee, Jr)

[stoney59]

obviously there are many reasons people leave the church. but i wonder about the theological reasons that drive people from the sacred ranks of the steeple. i believe conformity is a reason. what do i mean? if you believe your views and doctrines are the end-all-be-all of theological inquiry, then anyone who believes differently is either a threat and must be silenced or simply dismissed. here conformity is misconstrued as holiness; free-thinking is viewed as dangerous.

on the other hand, if you believe God welcomes real differences in theological views (after all, do we really think our theology is that perfect? Hardly. Theology at best is an on-going exercise in understanding God and every theological position, i believe, is open to revision and challenge). in my opinion God welcomes the freedom to arrive at different conclusions, but I know this can be a problem with a church that needs to preserve its identity. SDAism, and every other church for that matter, strive to replicate themselves and their doctrines thus demanding conformity of belief to preserve their existence. it must look the same and believe the same or the specific church will cease to be. that's understandable but unfortunate.

there are many reasons people leave the Church, this is just another.

[mrsducky]

You have some worthwhile insights Bravus. About 2 1/2 years ago my church hired a new pastor. He was on the ropes in another conference because of his failing congregation and some thought that his ways were innovative and would bring life to our little church. By the time he was fired our congregation had dwindled from 200 to about 30. It was under his leadership that I found myself unable to continue attending church. He often said from the pulpit that he didn't care about the members and he was telling the truth. He wanted people to get up in front of the congregation and "confess all their sins". Often I went home from church terrorized rather than feeling like I had been in God's presence. I am just now feeling like God cares about me as his daughter and that I should be in church. We have a warm loving pastor & his wife now, but somehow things have changed. There is a culture of gossip and judgement that wasn't there before. I think the main reason people walk away from church isn't about study, belief systems and such but a lack of caring for each other. We as Adventists aren't very good at that.

[John317]

Quote:

mrsducky:.... He often said from the pulpit that he didn't care about the members and he was telling the truth.

Tragic for a pastor to think or say this.

Did he visit the members in their homes? That is so important to do-- to visit them in order to get to know them and find out their spiritual needs and their problems. It's only when a pastor does this that he knows what the church needs in the way of prayer and sermons, etc.

But it sounds like he lacked love and real interest in his congregation, so I'm not surprised he failed.

Jesus loves his sheep, and his true followers and the true shepherds in the church will also have the same love and concern for everyone in the church.

Quote:

mrsducky: He wanted people to get up in front of the congregation and "confess all their sins". ....

Sounds like he had a serious problem. People in church shouldn't feel pressured to confess their sins to other human beings. We're to confess our sins only to God. We should confess our faults to each other and ask for forgiveness from those we've hurt or sinned against, but it has to come because of the Holy Spirit and not because people are told they must do it.

I think the main thing people in a church should be encouraged to do is talk about what Jesus means to them and how they've seen Him working in their lives or in the lives of others. On the other hand, if people feel doubts or hurts and need prayer for anything at all, they should feel welcome to express those things.

Quote:

mrsducky: I think the main reason people walk away from church isn't about study, belief systems and such but a lack of caring for each other. We as Adventists aren't very good at that.

I agree with your essential point here-- that we all need to do better in expressing our love for each other-- but if each person is primarily interested in being "cared for," the church won't grow. We all have to be primarily concerned about others, not about ourselves. If we're only thinking about us, then we are full of SELF. We need to be full of Jesus and full of the Spirit, and when that happens, we won't be leaving the church because we don't feel we're being cared for. Our concern has to be about the lost and about the salvation of others, not about how we're feeling or whether we're getting the attention we need.

The love you're talking about is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and when we have the Holy Spirit filling us, we will have a genuine love for other believers, and especially for fellow Seventh-day Adventists.

[abelisle]

Interesting question but needs clarification.

My initial reaction is that people who left Adventism didn't leave "the Church." I define Church as the body of believers, separated from denominational constraints. I see these people as seekers for the truth that for them will set them free.

It's not easy leaving Adventism if you were raised in it. There are all sorts of issues with family, social relations, traditions and habits. The mindset of "the remnant church" creates a strong sense of provincialism that implies that anything else is wrong and probably evil.

They are putting themselves in God's hands. He is their judge and their salvation.

Alex (as I said before, Adventism isn't perfect but for me it's the closest thing to Biblical truth)

[Lutz13]

But i can never believe that, because i am weak and stupid. Furthermore i have got sin running through my veins.

[Kountzer]

There are countless reasons why people leave the church. Non adventists and and non sabbath keepers dominate everything, in turns of numbers. Everything is oriented toward Sunday: jobs, entertainment, everything. Then there is the notion that adventists are somehow more unfriendly. I find this hard to believe. People are just as unfriendly outside as they are inside.

My personal attendance at church lately has been spotty at best. I was in church the past two sabbaths. Hopefully I can build on this.

[Overaged]

There are countless reasons why people leave the church. Non adventists and and non sabbath keepers dominate everything, in turns of numbers. Everything is oriented toward Sunday: jobs, entertainment, everything. Then there is the notion that adventists are somehow more unfriendly. I find this hard to believe. People are just as unfriendly outside as they are inside.

My personal attendance at church lately has been spotty at best. I was in church the past two sabbaths. Hopefully I can build on this.

I agree with you here when you say that you don't think Adventists are 'more unfriendly' than other Churches. As one who left our church for a while; I know that for a fact.

I would say too though that 'spotty attendance' is different than actually leaving. It could be something happening that will lead to leaving, but it could also mean other things are happening, which hopefully, other members can help you through.

My personal preference has always been to go once or twice a month. I have always thought it important to have a Sabbath or two to quietly study on my own. While some are adamant that once you are baptised, you MUST go every week, perhaps this is one of the things contributing needlessly to the stress level that makes one leave? Even with happily married people, they need a bit of a break from one another at times. It's the same with church members. We need to learn to come together as a church better; but we also need to learn better how to "come ye apart for a while." (Mark 6:31).

[Woody]

Is six out of seven not enough 'coming apart'?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: karl

If we're trying to think all the way around this, let's also ask the question, "What kind of people STAY IN the church, and why?"

Once we know the difference(s) between the two groups, we can ask whether anything should be done about it.

I can say, for myself only here, that even though I am not a member of SDA (YET), I like the church because it is more conservative and fundamental in their views toward and with the Bible. The one that I attend is conservative, but not overly so, which means that there is a mixture of people that are members and that go there. There are Vegetarians, Vegans, people who eat by the Old Testament Law, people who eat what they wish, people who are very fundamental in their beliefs and those that are not so much. I like the mixture and I absolutely adore the pastor of this church because he has a good grasp of the Bible and how SDA relates with it and people.

Thanks for this comment. So true! The best kind of church to go to!

[Overaged]

Is six out of seven not enough 'coming apart'?

Maybe for some, but that wasn't my main point. I was trying to say that there is nothing in the fourth commandment; either in Deut or Exodus, that says go to church every Sabbath. I think it was God's design that we balance better our Sabbath-keeping because in many cases, we have a miserable track record that has driven many people away.

[Woody]

But if you had attended every week ... the church might not have such a miserable track record.

[Overaged]

If this is a genuine query, I can probably shed a little light, since I am also a member of an ex-SDA forum. But to some extent it's already asked in a prejudicial way that assumes the fault is something innate in the people.

So how about it, Overaged? Do you genuinely want to know something about the range of people who leave the church, where they end up and the wide variety of reasons they leave? And can you promise that as far as possible the discussion will be about the attempt to understand, rather than to judge and condemn?

(It's possible to say that you believe they have made the wrong decision, that their reasoning is wrong, and so on, but to phrase that in terms of your own beliefs rather than of their characteristics, if that makes sense.)

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure out the purpose and focus of the thread.

Bravus; please allow me to apologize for any offensive remarks or approaches I have had towards you. In the ideal church, where one would never want to leave; people might still offend one another, but they don't let it go on and on, so lets make this the ideal forum, and try not to do that, OK?

You have a right to your opinions, and expressions thereof. I will look for a better way to express my opinions of certain ideas that you brought up. Hopefully, you will also see that maybe you misjudged me a bit in the beginning of this thread; but that is not a 'must have' for us to be at peace with one another.

[Overaged]

But if you had attended every week ... the church might not have such a miserable track record.

Alright my friend...I sense that you are up to something here....all of a sudden the room is getting smaller...

Yesterday, a new dog we got decided to have a showdown with an old cat that we have. You know how the new doesn't always get with the old, eh? Well, anyways, the dog got the cat in a corner, and then the cat felt desperate, so she gave his nose a quick, but vicious swipe. LOL, lets just say that the dog left the cat in peace.

Woody; you are not trying to back me into a corner are you? What is the point you want to make?

[Woody]

That your presence is needed each week at church. It may not b e necessary for you personally. But others need you. :)

[Overaged]

That your presence is needed each week at church. It may not b e necessary for you personally. But others need you.

Well; now I am backed into that corner...hmmmm. (lol, just kidding. I have to go but will be back)

[mrsducky]

When he first came he said he was going to visit each home but that never happened. He communicated through a blog on the internet or a website he set up for the church. He wouldn't even visit members in the hospital who were critically ill. He is now training to become a paramedic--his former profession. I wish him well. Right now is a time of healing for me (and my husband) but it really knocked us for a loop! Thanks for your comments.

Quote:

mrsducky:.... He often said from the pulpit that he didn't care about the members and he was telling the truth.

Tragic for a pastor to think or say this.

Did he visit the members in their homes? That is so important to do-- to visit them in order to get to know them and find out their spiritual needs and their problems. It's only when a pastor does this that he knows what the church needs in the way of prayer and sermons, etc.

But it sounds like he lacked love and real interest in his congregation, so I'm not surprised he failed.

Jesus loves his sheep, and his true followers and the true shepherds in the church will also have the same love and concern for everyone in the church.

Quote:

mrsducky: He wanted people to get up in front of the congregation and "confess all their sins". ....

Sounds like he had a serious problem. People in church shouldn't feel pressured to confess their sins to other human beings. We're to confess our sins only to God. We should confess our faults to each other and ask for forgiveness from those we've hurt or sinned against, but it has to come because of the Holy Spirit and not because people are told they must do it.

I think the main thing people in a church should be encouraged to do is talk about what Jesus means to them and how they've seen Him working in their lives or in the lives of others. On the other hand, if people feel doubts or hurts and need prayer for anything at all, they should feel welcome to express those things.

Quote:

mrsducky: I think the main reason people walk away from church isn't about study, belief systems and such but a lack of caring for each other. We as Adventists aren't very good at that.

I agree with your essential point here-- that we all need to do better in expressing our love for each other-- but if each person is primarily interested in being "cared for," the church won't grow. We all have to be primarily concerned about others, not about ourselves. If we're only thinking about us, then we are full of SELF. We need to be full of Jesus and full of the Spirit, and when that happens, we won't be leaving the church because we don't feel we're being cared for. Our concern has to be about the lost and about the salvation of others, not about how we're feeling or whether we're getting the attention we need.

The love you're talking about is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and when we have the Holy Spirit filling us, we will have a genuine love for other believers, and especially for fellow Seventh-day Adventists.

[teresaq]

Thanks Teresa, i wish i could believe Jesus died for me. But i can never believe that, because i am weak and stupid. Furthermore i have got sin running through my veins. I feel bad and depressed all the time. All i ve got that makes my life bearable is watching adult movies, televison, music and that sort of stuff. I have asked God many times to pull me out of the mud. But it is obvious i am worth nothing, and honoustly that s ok with me. I ve did the best i could in my miserable sinfull state, it was not enough, but at least i never sold my soul, i didn t take the easy way out. I believe Jesus died for some people but not for me. But just because i am not saved, it does not mean i don t want other people to get to know to learn the truth. So often i tell people about the truth, when i see they are good people who just need some good direction in their life.

For me, i don t even care anymore whether i get saved. Eternal death s got to be easy because life is so hard and painfull. So for me eternal destruction is like being in paradise. I am so tired of struggling, not achieving my aims, fighting against my own flesh, etc. I decided to continue living so i can reach out to some people God does care about. If they can get to heaven because i told em the truth, then i ve did the best i could possibly do.

Thanks for your encouragments, but really Jesus did not die for me. That s like saying that water can burn. However sometimes i see people, and i see that they were like me before i got to be possessed with sin, and i know they still have a chance.

we all have sin running through our veins, truthseeker. even the most "pious" among us are probably the worst.

in fact, you may be more fortunate than many in the church...many believe that as long as they are not actually doing what they want to do that they are ok...but thats another subject...

i do understand how you feel about preferring eternal death, job, elijah, and others that have not been recorded can certainly identify also. the devil had them so done they wished they had never been born. but notice who it is that is doing the discouraging...satan.

God encourages, satan discourages....satan was at joshuas right hand,

zechariah 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

notice what the Lord said to satan? that applies to you also, all sin-stained, just as joshua was...just as we all are...

satan tells us it is no use, God says,

hebrews 7:25... he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, ...

cast your helpless soul on Jesus....and give Him time to work...He doesnt wave a magic wand over us and instantly we are changed, He reasons with us and leads us as we are able....

i know... i had so much that needed change, and still do, but Christ gets to the root of the problem and if that takes time, so be it. He doesnt whack off what is visible, the weed, He wants to pull out the complete root, not leaving any pieces that will take hold and sprout up again...

[wayfinder]

Quote:

Thanks for your encouragments, but really Jesus did not die for me. That s like saying that water can burn.

1 Kings 18:38 NAS

Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

truthseeker007, God can burn water and He can save you. Jesus died for His kingdom, in His kingdom there is room for all who love and practice the truth, if this is you, then enter His kingdom. Which is worse, to be a sinner and know it or be a sinner and think you are a saint?

[Bravus]

Thanks for your graciousness, OverAged: always excellent to restore relationships. And yes, by asking the question and asking it the way I did, to some extent I was judging your intentions on the past actions of others, which was very unfair. Good thread, sorry I contributed to starting it off less cordially than should be happened.

{virtual handshake}

[jasd]

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...and, a reason not to leave the church: Potluck!—sometimes I’ll travel great distances to attend a church for its grub. I’ll sit for an hour not understanding a word from the pulpit, but then it's on to the groaning board and if one has chosen wisely – fantastic home-cooking!—well, there’s also soda pop and chips, as well...

Imagine, cheery folk talking at you a mile a minute without your understanding a word they’re saying – the while you nod, grin, and chew. But such folk! Worth the travel time.

Hey! try visiting Ashrams for delicious Indian/veggie food.

Mebbe, the .Org can put out a guide in pamphlet form to advise where the better/best Potlucks are to be had (especially one for Middle to Southern Oregon); y’know, sorta like a Michelin Guide - three star, four star, and five star ratings - on'y "Advent's Connoisseur's Guide to Culinary Pickings"(mebbe?).

Another Red book (tic).