Black Holocaust

[Dr. Shane]

My brother and I are the only white guys in my wedding party

[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbthreads/attachments/157634-wedding_party.jpg[/]

My friends at Andrews University always said I should have been born black. I think that is because I always went to the black church service and Bible study. Had I stayed there I suspect I would have married a black woman.

[Dr. Shane]

No Sister Amelia, that is not what we are talking about. Maybe that is what you are talking about. We are talking about second-class citizens . The word citizens means in relation to one's government. It means a member of a state or nation who owes allignece to it by birth or naturalization and is entitled to full civil rights. The government cannot pass a law forbiding hate. The government cannot pass a law to outlaw bad words and dirty looks. However the government can and has passed laws giving all citizens equal rights and protection under the law.

[David_McQueen]

Shane

Do you think that some/most of the blame then lies with Planned Parenthood? Or are there are factors?

[bevin]

Looking at the data (what a thought)

15M black females in the USA

5M of easily-impregnable age

12 cycles/yr => 60M possible pregnancies / yr

Apparently they are aborting 0.3M pregnancies / yr

=> 0.5% failure rate on whatever contraceptive they are using per month.

This is very high. It should be about 1% / year, not 6% per year except for sterilization, where it should be about zero.

This implies either (a) inadequate advice, or ( inadequate usage, AND ALSO © inadequate levels of permanent sterilization.

(a) is almost certainly true - especially when religious nut-cases attack teaching contraception in schools

( is almost certainly true - the pill is much more reliable than the condom, and when both are combined with the morning-after pill there should not be a problem at all

© is interesting - anybody have real statistics for the number of vasectomies done on black v white males?

/Bevin

[Bravus]

There are issues of power here too: in general, poorer/less educated women feel less power to negotiate the terms of their lives - specificially, whether they have sex in the first place, and whether, e.g. condoms are used. It's a huge issue with AIDS in Africa: women really can't demand safe sex because they're powerless in the situation. This means that it's the men who need to be targeted for information and education, and it also means that for black and other poor communities in the US there needs to be excellent education and free/cheap availability of contraception.

Look, as Christians we all believe people shouldn't be having sex outside marriage. In a perfect world, no-one would. But in this world, people will. How do we minimise the harm, including abortion harm? By delivering *good* sex education (that includes relationship education), not none, and by making sure good contraception is easily and cheaply available.

Poverty *is* an issue: if the man won't use a condom, and the woman can't afford the pill...

[fifiqueen]

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lets talk about slavery and the way that black people were killed

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Shane said: Slavery was terrible and had I lived during that time I would have been as much of an abolitionist as I am pro-life today. Yet it is niave to place all the blame on the white slave owners. The black slaves sold into slavey were sold by blacks in Africa where slavery still exists today. While the vast majority of slaves were black, it was not limited to only blacks. There were white slaves too.

[:"blue"] Shane I was not saying decrying white people in my statement at all, I am well aware of the involvement of blacks in slavery. What I am saying is that the event was a holocaust in it's own right, which is not often seen as so. It was a blatant disregard for human life. This is my point[/]

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Lets also talk about a society which still considers them as second class citizens

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Shane said: That may be true in the UK. It is not true in the US.

[:"blue"]Shane whether you admit to it or not there are still major race issues in the US. The US media in general itself promotes a particular of image of black people which is not negative. If you note your crime programmes the focus is always mainly black as though they are the only people who commit crime. The judical system has a bias as it is more likely to incarcerate a black man over a white man. No amount of legalistion can change the unlying racism that exists in both of our countries [/]

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It never ceases to amaze me how you constantly bring out negative figures and so called facts about the black race.

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Shane said: This thread is not negetive about blacks. For some reason you read it that way. This thread is negetive about abortion providers which seem to be targetting blacks.

[:"blue"]I suppose it's like the thread you posted some time about Kerry's daughter. It has not been qualified enough. You raise the issue of abortion with regards to black and called the thread Black Holocaust. I am sure you can see how it is difficult to see that this thread is just about abortion.[/]

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I challenge you to find positive media and post it.

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Shane said: I have posted stories written by Walter Williams, who I admire greatly and is a black professor and columnist. I have also taken my hat off to Bill Cosby in Townhall.

[:"blue"]If I remember correctly the post about Bill Cosby was not about positive comments he made about the black community but negative one?! Correct me if I am wrong. I haven't seen the Walter Williams so please by all means send me the links, I am be willing to read them [/]

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As for your commit that those who abort in the back alleys get all they they deserve appaulls me.

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Shane said: I did not say that. Brother Neil did. I said they get what we all deserve. That includes me and even the pope.

[:"blue"]I stand corrected! Although what Neil said was that you think this way. I read your post in error although I did not appreciate the comment. [/]

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We have argued over the abortion issue before, you bring it up almost quarterly.

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Shane said: It comes up often in the news, Sister. And we discuss the news in this forum. You have already admitted the news tends to focus on the black population a lot. Well, that is why you see threads here. We discuss what is in the news.

[:"blue"]There are lots of things in the news that don't get discussed here as we tend to focus on the same issues over and over again. You still bring up Abortion almost quartley [/]

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When talking about poverty, another mouth to feed can often compound and already disasterous situation.

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Shane said: Again, I can't address the issues in the UK. In the US no pregnant woman has to keep her baby. In fact, unwed mothers that give their children up for adoption are considered heros for 1. not aborting and 2. giving the child a two parent home. So there isn't even any social preasure placed on an unwed pregnant woman to keep the child.

[:"blue"]Shane carrying a child for 9 months to give it over to someone else is hard. It would be for me. Also if I don't want anyone to know the state that I have gotten myself into why would I want to show to the world that I was pregnant? There are many influential factors in aborting a baby, it is not always as cut and dry as it may first seem.

Just my thoughts

[:"blue"]

Thank you for you imput on this important issue.

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[fifiqueen]

Bravus,

You are so right here, in church there is NO sex education or very little. Sex is taboo and talk about it is tantamount to sin, yet we are the first the lay down the law when someone becomes pregnant.

We do not educate effectivley in our churches or in society. We have parents who have very little sexual education parenting children to whom they give very little sexual education and expect the state to provide or not (depending on their view point.)

Abortion often only focuses on the women, men have a part to o. Part of that is to protect themselves as well as those they are sleeping with.

Oh what a world, I can't even talk about this anymore right now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

[:"blue"]As an aside, I thought I would post something a bit more light, but informative. Concider the following article on the history of women's contraception [/]

In the past, a woman used birth control primarily to avoid pregnancy, especially if she already had many children. Before the advent of modern medicine, pregnancy was a dangerous business and many women died during or after childbirth. Much of the birth control methods that were developed were done so by trial and error, and the secrets that were discovered were quietly passed on from woman to woman.

Dances, Amulets, Rituals, and Myths

The earliest documented forms of birth control were dances, rituals, amulets, and myths. By the 2nd-century CE, Greek gynecologist Soranus knew that women were fertile during ovulation and promoted the rhythm method. (Unfortunately, he was incorrect in his assumption that ovulation occurred during menstruation, rather than prior to it.) He also recommended several, less scientific, ways to prevent conception: holding the breath and drawing the body back during sex so the sperm could not penetrate the mouth of the uterus; dislodging the sperm by jumping backwards seven times after intercourse; and sitting down on bent knees in order to provoke sneezing! Similarly, prostitutes in 1st-century BCE are said to have ground their pelvises in a manner that increased their partner's pleasure, with the assumption that the movement simultaneously diverted the sperm away from the womb.

Ancient Roman women wore a leather pouch containing a cat's liver on their left foot during sex to prevent conception. Another preventative was spitting in the mouth of a frog three times. European women were advised to turn the wheel of a grain mill backwards four times at midnight. Others thought that if they inserted a finger into the vagina and "swished it around" after intercourse, it would dislodge or confuse the sperm. Around the same time period, women in other parts of the world wore birth control necklaces or carried amulets to prevent pregnancy.

And in cultures where the moon was believed to be responsible for fertilizing crops, women slept out of the moonlight, so as not to be impregnated by moonbeams. In a similar vein, Papuan Islanders worried that homosexual males might become pregnant. To ensure that this did not occur, they held ceremonies during which they fed them limes to avoid conception.

A more reliable method used in ancient times was continuous breast-feeding, which can prevent ovulation, often until a child was three years old. And a guaranteed method of birth control? Abstinence. In the Middle Ages, some women in Catholic Europe opted for a life in the church. The decision was encouraged, in part, because the vocation meant that money would be given and/or left to the church, initially in the form of a dowry and later, if there was any, as an inheritance.

Spermicides, IUDs, Pessaries, and Douches

In the ancient medical manuscript the Ebers Papyrus (1550 BCE), women were advised to grind dates, acacia tree bark, and honey together into a paste and apply it with seed wool to the vulva. Modern science has shown that, since acacia ferments into lactic acid, a well-known spermicide, this method may have been effective. Other compounds that were smeared around the vagina included olive oil, pomegranate pulp, ginger, and tobacco juice.

Historians believe the Arabs invented intrauterine devices: they placed pebbles in the uteruses of their camels, so they would remain "unhindered" for long trips through the desert. In 1920, German gynecologist Grafenberg developed the first proper IUD for humans, using silkworm gut and silver wire coiled into a ring.

Pessaries (vaginal suppositories or diaphragms) have been recorded as early as 2nd-century BCE. Substances used include elephant or crocodile dung, leaves, and seaweed. Another so-called pessary, which was developed by a man, was a wooden block, similar in size and shape to a doorstop. This method was condemned in the 1930s as an instrument of torture. Other methods have included placing an apricot pit in the uterus, or a product consisting of cocoa butter, boric acid, and tannic acid.

Throughout history, women have also used objects such as sea sponges or soft wool as a sperm barrier, often in combination with lemon juice or vinegar as a spermicide. Half a lemon might be inserted into the vagina. Oriental women used oiled paper to "cap" the cervix, while European women used beeswax.

Soluble pessaries came into the market in the 1800s – these were quinine or cocoa butter tablets that were inserted into the vagina before intercourse. The first brand, Wife's Friend, was created by W.J. Rendell.

Douches have been used throughout history. Since at least the 1600s, French prostitutes used syringes to douche with an acidic liquid, which was thought to be more effective than water.

Oral Contraceptives

Oral Contraceptives have been available for more than 4,000 years. Women in ancient China drank mercury to prevent pregnancy. Later, women in India imbibed carrot seeds, and an aboriginal group in Eastern Canada drank a tea brewed with beaver testicles.

In Ancient Greece and Rome, the juice of the silphium plant was a popular and effective form of oral contraceptive, which women took once a month. Unfortunately, the siphium plant only grew in one place in Cyrene was extinct by the 1st century CE. In the 2nd century CE, Soranus advised women to drink the water that blacksmiths used to cool hot metals. Urine and animal parts and poisons such as mercury, arsenic, and strychnine were also used as oral contraceptives.

Abortion

Despite continuous debate over the ethics of abortion, it has been practiced throughout the centuries.

Throughout history, midwives doubled as informal family planning counselors, who would help with childbirth as well as with unwanted births. Emmenagogues (which bring on a period) and abortifacients were known as "women's medicines," which were used like the modern morning after pill. In the early 1900s these products were advertised as "removing obstructions" and "preventing irregularities" in the menstrual cycle.

Much of the information that these "wise women" knew has been lost over time – the information was taboo by most religious standards, and history and medical books were written by men, who were not as interested in "women's problems." But because of this lost information about herbal contraceptives, modern accidents have happened. For instance, pregnant women drinking pennyroyal tea may unwittingly miscarry. In one of Aristophanes' Ancient Greek comedies, Hermes advises the hero to "add a dose of pennyroyal" to keep his mistress out of trouble. Other herbs that have been taken to prevent or abort pregnancy include willow leaves, colocynth, and yarrow.

Despite the great technological and medical advancements of the 21st century, looking back at the history of birth control, we still have to ask: How far have we come, really?

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Do you think that some/most of the blame then lies with Planned Parenthood? Or are there are factors?

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Most of the blame? I doubt it. However the radical right (which I am not part of) would be more willing to conclude that.

From what I have read, Planned Parenthood is an abortion provider however I could be mistaken about that. However even if they are not I suspect they get much funding from such providers and are "in bed together". Planned Parenthood has two big reasons to encourage women to have abortions. 1. It fuels the multi-million dollar industry. Think about how much money the US sent to help tsunami victems ($350 million) and compare it to the amount spent on abortions each year (aprx. $650 million). 2. The more abortions performed each year the more the pro-abortion agenda is advanced. The fewer abortions performed, the easier it would be for pro-life groups to convince the public to restrict it. So Planned Parenthood encourages abortion first for the money and second to further their political agenda.

Do I believe Planned Parenthood is targetting the black population? Yes, I do. Perhaps not because of their founder's racism. However in the black community they see a high number of pregnancies among unwed women. Targetting them is just good business. I think it is as simple as that.

[Dr. Shane]

thank you Sister Fifi for your well-thoughtout reply.

I agree that slavery was as bad or worse than the holocaust. Many slaves were not even allowed to be taught about God. Imagine living in slavery and not even having eternal life to hope for or faith to lean on.

Your statement about second-class citizens was framed around the word citizen. In the US we do have second-class citizens. We call them felons. They have been convicted of a federal crime and are not allowed to vote or own fire arms. Blacks were at one time second-class citizens in the US but those days are gone.

I am sorry you saw the Cosby post as being negetive. You would probally view Walter Williams in the same light. I see the black community has some big problems and when I see black leaders speaking out and setting positive examples I view that as positive news.

Do you know what I admire the most about the black community? Their religious life. Of course not all are religious, but of those that are, they make a wonderful contribution to Christianity. If there was a black church in my area I would be a member there. I have a Christian satelite service and am blessed with the preaching of many black preachers.

[fifiqueen]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I am sorry you saw the Cosby post as being negetive. You would probally view Walter Williams in the same light. I see the black community has some big problems and when I see black leaders speaking out and setting positive examples I view that as positive news.

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Shane I too think that we need to be honest about the failings of our community but I also feel that there are enough people dogging us, we need postive, positive comments that come out as well as the comments that are honest about certain circumstances.

When I say positive, lets talk about what's good and offer positive solutions to what isn't so good.

Believe me I have my issues with my community, but if we never say there is nothing good we take away the hope of something better.

Blessings on this Sabbath Shane

Fifiqueen X

[bevin]

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1. It fuels the multi-million dollar industry. Think about how much money the US sent to help tsunami victems ($350 million) and compare it to the amount spent on abortions each year (aprx. $650 million). 2. The more abortions performed each year the more the pro-abortion agenda is advanced.

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Think about Bush's propaganda and war-machine.

1) It fuels a multi-billion dollar industry

2) It transferred $350 BILLION from USA tax-payers pockets to USA companies to "reconstruct Iraq"

3) And it is trying to start more wars to keep the trend going

/Bevin

[John317]

Fifiqueen,

I have worked for the past 18+ years with mostly black gang members, trying to keep them out of trouble and to go straight. I see young blacks who are so angry that they lack all self-control. And they don't even know why they are angry. The other night I asked one about midnight to stay in his room, and he spent the next fifteen minutes screeming at the top of his lungs, "F--- you, niggah, F---, all you niggahs," over and over again, until he was completely exhausted. Why did he do that? What is the reason for the rage and anger of all these blacks? (The counties are paying up to $8,000 per month for their schooling and for medical and dental care.)

A few weeks ago, a black boy told me that he doesn't care a blankety-blank about what Martin Luther King did, nor about what Rosa Parks did. Many others have said the same thing. They call each other niggah and dog, and they call whites crackers. Sometimes practically every other word is niggah or dog. They listen to rap that contains the most filthy lyrics calling women ho and b----, and and calling whites even worse names, mostly performed by black "artists."

About once a week I go to Los Angeles and spend a day and night walking the streets of skid row and photographing the people I find there. (I make portraits of them and record their stories on video or audio tape.) At least 90% are black. You seldom see people of another race. There are thousands living on those streets that run with urine and smell of marijuana.

The surprising thing is that most of the ones I have talked with like it there and have no desire or ambition to leave it. Almost all of them are either drug addicts, alcoholics, or mentally ill. You could throw away millions of dollars on trying to help them, but they would never do anything different. Anything you give them is spent on satisfying their addictions.

They often hear preachers telling them about Jesus Christ and how He saves. But they have ears to hear and eyes to see, yet they neither hear indeed nor see indeed that they might turn and be saved.

What is to be done? Jim

[lazarus]

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John317 said:

I see young blacks who are so angry that they lack all self-control. And they don't even know why they are angry.

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I do a bit of Chaplaincy work in a local hospital and sometimes talk to the victims of shootings and stabbings. Many of thses victims are black men. They are angry, very angry and confused. This is masked by being laid back, arrogant and resentful of authority. Their fathers are no where to be found and consequestly they have low self esteem. They have a hunger to be accepted but general not accepted by society (which is white controlled) Every day black men have to justify their place in society in a way that white men do not. Even sucessful black men have thei position and achivements questioned constantly.

Any White person wishig to understand this whole issue should try and see the film "the colour of fear", It will blow you away.

http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm

A question that white folks may want to ask themselves if they want to begin to understand what black people feel is "what does it mean to be white?"

[jasd]

QT Frame:

Wasn’t Ol’ Honest Abe, Republican? y’know, “Emancipation Proclamation”:

“Few Americans know it, but in fact Richard Nixon, even more than John Kennedy or Lyndon Johnson, shaped the civil-rights landscape we inhabit today. Nixon broke the will of the South, making school desegregation, long on the books but largely unimplemented, a reality for millions of children black and white. He presided over the nationalization of the Voting Rights Act, extending it beyond the South to cover all Americans—including Latinos. He oversaw the birth of bilingual education and averted the death of historically black colleges. Most important, for better or worse, he and his aides created affirmative action as we know it, turning a vague idea about a leg up at the starting gate into a vast national web of "goals and timetables" at colleges, corporations, and government contracting agencies.”

Was Nixon a left-wing lunatic liberal? y’know, one of those…? nah, he was just a guy who got himself sandbagged, and who couldn’t explain 18 and 1/2 minutes of tape 342.

/ Didn’t the Klan have its roots in the Democratic South? and the white Supremacist Movement?

/ Ahh, the Dixiecrats -- wasn’t it the Southern Bloc that sustained instituted segregation until the Republican Party broke it up?

/ Wasn’t the Civil Rights Act of ’64 filibustered by Democrats (and one Republican)?

/ Didn’t more Republicans (percentage-wise) support that act than did Democrats?