"What did Jesus do?" - "New Yorker" article (5/24/2010)

[John317]

Sure, I agree. I like the New Yorker myself. It's had a reputation for first-rate fiction (like J.D. Salinger) and many of its essays are outstanding. But like you say, it's not the place to go for biblical scholarship, and I wouldn't expect to be. It's for fun and entertainment.

[John317]

Quote:

cardw: One simply has to point out the large group of people calling themselves Mormon to demonstrate the insidious nature of mythology and the large groups of people willing to believe it. Even though there is no genetic evidence of Middle Eastern DNA in the American Indian population Mormons continue to insist that they are descendants of a lost 13th tribe of Israel. They consider the book of Mormon to be historical and factual and yet you would never accept their claims of truth around the Book of Mormon.

I know Mormonism and there's no real comparison between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. I don't know how anyone who has studied both books could even say that. Even Mormons will tell you they don't know for sure where most of those those things occurred. Even the so-called Reformed Egyptian language, which the plates were suppoed to have been written on, is unknown to linguists.

Quote:

Christianity is simply given a free pass on the issue of evidence and all kinds of ridiculous claims are sustained by odd tangential arguments that would never be acceptable in any other kind of pursuit of truth.

Really? If you think you can back that up with valid evidence, give it a try.

I don't like to believe in anything false, so please show me what is false about the NT. But don't give me theories-- I want facts and documentation. If you have it, then, please present it.

[John317]

Quote:

What is your strongest proof that this explains the Gospels or the NT? Can you make a direct connection between the NT and the theory you're proposing?

So is this your strongest proof?

That we don't see those kinds of miracles being done today?

You don't see the world being created today either, do you? Does that mean it never happened? Lots of things have happened that you don't see happening today, yet you believe them.

Besides, there are "miracles" that happen in modern times, but they don't satisfy people who require them to be done scientifically so as to be verified.

[cardw]

Really? If you think you can back that up with valid evidence, give it a try.

I don't like to believe in anything false, so please show me what is false about the NT. But don't give me theories-- I want facts and documentation. If you have it, then, please present it.

I gave you a whole blog post that you totally ignored. You are distorting the evidence I gave you by denying that I gave you any evidence.

And yet you have no way of proving that these miracles happened in the first place. Where is your documentation? How is your view anything greater than a theory? You are being hypocritical because you don't have anything near the evidence that you require of me.

Like I said before extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and you have no such evidence.

[John317]

I really would like to see you write a book in which you do your best to prove to the world that the Bible is a fairy-tale and that Christ never existed.

You might start by proving that the book of Acts is all fiction.

Maybe you could prove the following to be false:

Sir William Ramsey, author of St. Paul the Traveller and Roman Citizen (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House reprint; 1949 from 1894 lectures), was a 19th century Scotsman who set out to disprove the book of Acts. He thought the Bible was a “Book of Fables.” His skepticism led him to actually go to the places where Dr. Luke had written about Paul’s missionary journeys. Ramsey’s studies led him not only to believe in the historicity of Acts, but actually led to Ramsey’s conversion.

C.S. Lewis, the noted English author, was an agnostic. His conversion to Christianity was set up when an unbelieving Oxford professor said that the New Testament was indeed historically accurate.

Source: http://www.asburytulsa.org/sermons/note-082309.pdf

Can you prove these men wrong? If you can, you should do it. If they are lies, I want to know about it.

Check this out also:

Quote:

Archaeologists studying ancient civilizations by uncovering ruins and examining artifacts, are with increasing success confirming the accuracy of the Biblical texts. Sir William Ramsey's vindication of Luke's writings is a classic example. The findings of archaeology have in fact reversed the opinions of a number of former skeptics. Among these is the scholar Dr. William F. Albright, who writes:

"The excessive skepticism shown toward the Bible [by certain schools of thought] has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of numerous details."

Recent archaeological discoveries include both the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1f) and "The Pavement" (John 19:13). Their existence was doubted just a few decades ago. Confirmation of the accuracy of the setting of Jacob's well has also been found (John 4). Such findings have caused many scholars to reverse earlier skeptical opinions on the historicity of the Fourth Gospel. Its author has demonstrated an obvious intimate knowledge of the Jerusalem of Jesus' time, just as we would expect from the Apostle John. Such detail would not have been accessible to a writer of a later generation, since Jerusalem was demolished under Titus' Roman army in 70 A.D.

Also, the recent recovery of a Roman census similar to the one in Luke 2:1f, and the historical confirmation of his “synchronism” in Luke 3:1f, underscores the care Luke took in writing his Gospel (Luke 1:1-4).

[Read more about archaeological discoveries that confirm the Bible's accuracy.]

Critics of Luke's Gospel often retreat into non-verifiable and subjective opinions, but they have not overthrown Luke's historical confirmations. By extension, the other two “Synoptic” Gospels of Matthew and Mark, painting essentially similar portraits of Jesus' ministry, are also trustworthy accounts of his life.

Additionally, outside the Bible, Jesus is also mentioned by his near-contemporaries. Extra-Biblical and secular writers (many hostile) point to Jesus' existence, including the Roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus and Pliny, and the Jewish writings of Josephus and the Talmud. Gary Habermas has cited a total of 39 ancient extra-Biblical sources, including 17 non-Christian, that witness from outside the New Testament to over 100 details of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t007.html

Seriously, if you really can prove these things false, what are you waiting for?

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

Really? If you think you can back that up with valid evidence, give it a try.

I don't like to believe in anything false, so please show me what is false about the NT. But don't give me theories-- I want facts and documentation. If you have it, then, please present it.

Quote:

cardw: I gave you a whole blog post that you totally ignored. You are distorting the evidence I gave you by denying that I gave you any evidence.

No, I won't ignore it, Rich. Give me time to read it.

I also haven't forgotten about your post on "the word-play" in John 3: 3, 7.

[John317]

Quote:

cardw: You are being hypocritical because you don't have anything near the evidence that you require of me.

I've noticed you have a pattern of calling people on the forum "hypocritical" if they don't do what you think they should do when you want them to do it. I'm not writing this as moderator, but as just a member, and I'd like to appeal to you to stop using that kind of language on the forum.

If you would like to see certain kinds of evidence, then please ask for it, and talk about it.

What kind of evidence for the miracles of Jesus would you accept as proof that they happened?

[cardw]

Quote:

Christianity is simply given a free pass on the issue of evidence and all kinds of ridiculous claims are sustained by odd tangential arguments that would never be acceptable in any other kind of pursuit of truth.

Really? If you think you can back that up with valid evidence, give it a try.

I don't like to believe in anything false, so please show me what is false about the NT. But don't give me theories-- I want facts and documentation. If you have it, then, please present it.

Quit saying I haven't given you documentation. I gave you a whole blog post with quotes. I gave you a textual analysis with links to the Greek lexicon. And you still ask for documentation?

All you have given me are triumphal announcements and name dropping. That's my evidence of your odd tangential arguments and ridiculous claims. Where are your facts and documentation?

Your evidence that the Bible is completely true is based on the idea that it talks about real places. That is not evidence of the miracles at all.

You point to the fact that we don't know why we exist or how the earth got here as evidence of miracles. That's an odd tangential argument. If we would accept it as valid we could use that to "prove" the claims of miracles by any number of ancient god men.

Your standard of truth is different for you than for me. That's hypocritical. That's the very definition. Complaining that I am saying your hypocritical is another tangential argument. It's not name calling if it's true.

[phkrause]

Not being sarcasic cardw, but when you mentioned that you needed proof of miracles as performed by Jesus, it brought to mind what Herod said to Jesus when he finally got to meet him. He wanted Jesus to walk across his swimming pool, he wanted to see the miracle of walking on water. Which he obviously had heard.

I believe that there was a miracle that many saw just a while ago, when that plane landed on the Hudson River in NYC. Not one person died. And just this week where the bus driver stop just short of running over a baby that was sitting in the middle of the road. And there a plenty more, but I'm not going to put them all down. I think that if we need a miracle to believe in Jesus its never gonna happen.

pk

[cardw]

Not being sarcasic cardw, but when you mentioned that you needed proof of miracles as performed by Jesus, it brought to mind what Herod said to Jesus when he finally got to meet him. He wanted Jesus to walk across his swimming pool, he wanted to see the miracle of walking on water. Which he obviously had heard.

I believe that there was a miracle that many saw just a while ago, when that plane landed on the Hudson River in NYC. Not one person died. And just this week where the bus driver stop just short of running over a baby that was sitting in the middle of the road. And there a plenty more, but I'm not going to put them all down. I think that if we need a miracle to believe in Jesus its never gonna happen.

pk

The plane landing in the Hudson is not a miracle. It is entirely within the realm of good piloting. All of these are possible with normal human senses and reactions.

It is far more likely that miracle stories were made up to legitimize Jesus for the ancient mind since Christians would be competing with other god myths present at the time.

[cardw]

If you would like to see certain kinds of evidence, then please ask for it, and talk about it.

What kind of evidence for the miracles of Jesus would you accept as proof that they happened?

If Christians today could do these miracles it would be a proof. And having hospitals and a health message are not proof of healing miracles.

The best test for a miracle that could not be faked would be the restoration of an amputated limb.

[phkrause]

The best test for a miracle that could not be faked would be the restoration of an amputated limb.

That's what I thought, you sound just like Herod looking for a miracle. I think that if you asked any Pilot you'd find that all would say that that landing on the Hudson was a miracle. And I agree that christians should be able to do a miracle like putting someone's arm back on, but I don't think that's gonna happen because I don't think anyone has that kind of faith, at least at this time in earth's history. Now that's not saying that I'm correct and that there are no people with faith. Even Jesus says that all we need is the faith as big as a mustard seed and we know how big that is. From what I understand its the smallest of all seeds!

How about people that have been diagnosed with cancer, etc and when they have returned to be rechecked they couldn't find it! I believe those are miracles.

pk

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The best test for a miracle that could not be faked would be the restoration of an amputated limb.

That's what I thought, you sound just like Herod looking for a miracle. I think that if you asked any Pilot you'd find that all would say that that landing on the Hudson was a miracle. And I agree that christians should be able to do a miracle like putting someone's arm back on, but I don't think that's gonna happen because I don't think anyone has that kind of faith, at least at this time in earth's history. Now that's not saying that I'm correct and that there are no people with faith. Even Jesus says that all we need is the faith as big as a mustard seed and we know how big that is. From what I understand its the smallest of all seeds!

How about people that have been diagnosed with cancer, etc and when they have returned to be rechecked they couldn't find it! I believe those are miracles.

pk

You make it sound like asking for evidence is a moral failure. You again demonstrate that Christianity is not held to the same standards of truth that you hold other events to.

Cancer has a cause and it is entirely possible to cure cancer. Landing on the Hudson is not a miracle. It is the result of cause and effect and good pilot skills. It is difficult but not impossible. There is absolutely no evidence that either involves the Christian god. And neither had anything to say about the claims of the New Testament in regards to the miracles of Jesus.

It is still far more likely that these writers needed to shore up the credibility of Jesus in competition with other god/man myths of the day. We can observe this process in recent times with all the various claims of more recent religious and spiritual movements. There is no reason to find that the Bible would not be subject to similar processes.

[LifeHiscost]

Are you afraid to at least give some consideration to the idea that maybe, just maybe you/we/me don't have it all right?

One doesn't have to know it all or have it all right, to rest in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit opens up our mind.

The question might be, to open our mind up to what? Should we or is it safe to open our mind to the wisdom of men who have been here for about 6,000 years and who wish to substitute or eliminate the Creator, Who put the Universe together beginning as far back as multiplied billions of years as a starter to eternity, as attested by astronomers when describing how far away some of that universe is at this point of time, of which we are just now gaining sight to.

"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. " Romans 1:20 NLT

All have a right to reject the Word and are free to receive what remains. However what good reason is there? Seventy to 100 years of thinking for myself, without interference? If that were true, why does the unbeliever die without hope at the end of their/his/her days. Could it be because hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit, Who has been rejected.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" John 1:1-5,14 NKJV

Regards!

[wayfinder]

John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you

We are not to rest until we know all the truth. We wonder, what is Jesus waiting for, why hasn't He returned already; maybe He is waiting for us to learn all the truth. He is waiting for us, we are waiting for Him, it is a real waiting game.

[LifeHiscost]

The miracle stories. You are completely willing to accept that Jesus did all these miracles when we see no evidence that anyone can do any of these things today.

My suggestion would be to investigate people now carrying the gospel throughout the world, if it is necessary for you to see miracles being performed, including the most outstanding miracle of all by the estimation of some, the miracle of the resurrection of the dead. However, for one needing to see miracles to establish their faith, they are left open to the seducing spirits of demons, as Jesus never worked miracles to bolster faith in the mind of unbelievers, but for the sake of those who believed the miracle would make them whole,

and believed Jesus was capable of performing the miracle needed.

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." Matt 12:38-42 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” "John 20:29 NKJV

For the believer;

"...though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory... "1 Peter 1:8 NASB

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

If Christians today could do these miracles it would be a proof. And having hospitals and a health message are not proof of healing miracles.

The best test for a miracle that could not be faked would be the restoration of an amputated limb.

I happen to believe that is a valid point. In fact all the believers are not only going to get new arms but the whole body,

along with a mind without sin. And since it's sin that causes death, we won't have to worry about ever losing another organ.

Of course that is the future scenario, which if we don't believe it while it's still future, we won't have much of a future.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

Of course, if one spends all their time making effort to prove the non-existence of God, it won't eliminate Him, but it doesn't leave much time for building faith in He Who is Life.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. " John 14:6 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

We are not to rest until we know all the truth. We wonder, what is Jesus waiting for, why hasn't He returned already; maybe He is waiting for us to learn all the truth. He is waiting for us, we are waiting for Him, it is a real waiting game.

I'm not waiting.

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, Who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—"1 Cor 1:30 NKJV

"For He says:“ In an acceptable time I have heard you,And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."2 Corinthians 6:2 NKJV

Regards!!

[cardw]

However, for one needing to see miracles to establish their faith, they are left open to the seducing spirits of demons, as Jesus never worked miracles to bolster faith in the mind of unbelievers, but for the sake of those who believed the miracle would make them whole, and believed Jesus was capable of performing the miracle needed.

So if we need evidence then we are open to seducing spirits, but if we are gullible and never check our facts we are golden. LOL

[cardw]

Of course, if one spends all their time making effort to prove the non-existence of God, it won't eliminate Him, but it doesn't leave much time for building faith in He Who is Life.

I don't know how many times I have to clarify this. I am not proving the non-existence of god. I'm pointing out the complete lack of proof for the god of the Bible.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Of course, if one spends all their time making effort to prove the non-existence of God, it won't eliminate Him, but it doesn't leave much time for building faith in He Who is Life.

I don't know how many times I have to clarify this. I am not proving the non-existence of god. I'm pointing out the complete lack of proof for the god of the Bible.

You will have indisputible proof soon enough, Rich.

Meanwhile, do you not like prophetic fulfillment?

Below is a link to a discussion of Bible prophecy written from a very skeptical viewpoint which you might find intersting.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/er/prophecy_clements.pdf

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

However, for one needing to see miracles to establish their faith, they are left open to the seducing spirits of demons, as Jesus never worked miracles to bolster faith in the mind of unbelievers, but for the sake of those who believed the miracle would make them whole, and believed Jesus was capable of performing the miracle needed.

So if we need evidence then we are open to seducing spirits, but if we are gullible and never check our facts we are golden. LOL

You'll notice the post alluded to did not say one did not need or would not be provided with evidence. It merely referred to no sign (miracle) would be given except the sign of Jonah, for the "wicked and adulterous" generation asking for a sign that they might believe. And I believe that argument was properly addressed by the verses;

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..."Romans 16:16-22 NKJV

You'll notice the bold in the verse above refers to what exists in all men, righteous and unrighteous, as positive evidence of a loving God, our bodies that function when not abused, in perfect harmony though separate molecular entities in multiplied millions.

Though the Bible is seen as not revealing a God of love, Jesus points to it as revealing Himself, leaving only the darkness of the human mind with the incapacity to apprehend.

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. "John 5:39 NKJV

Perhaps it is the need of God to meet the prince of darkness with death, which in the long term will eradicate evil from existence, that makes it difficult for some to see His true character. BOTOH if one believes God to be just and the justifier of those who believe, they will see in Him Who is Jesus, all the answers needed to elicit implicit trust, without equivocation.

"I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. All of them ate the same spiritual food, and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.

Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness."

1 Cor 10:1-5 NLT

However there is no darkness as deep as that which surrounds those who will not see. Seeking Jesus reveals all the light necessary for the seeker who knows he does not know.

"Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves."

John 14:8-11 NASB

"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."Jer 29:13 NKJV

Regards!!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Of course, if one spends all their time making effort to prove the non-existence of God, it won't eliminate Him, but it doesn't leave much time for building faith in He Who is Life.

Originally Posted By: cardw

I don't know how many times I have to clarify this. I am not proving the non-existence of god. I'm pointing out the complete lack of proof for the god of the Bible.

You will have indisputible proof soon enough, Rich.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So if we need evidence then we are open to seducing spirits, but if we are gullible and never check our facts we are golden. LOL

You'll notice the post alluded to did not say one did not need or would not be provided with evidence. It merely referred to no sign (miracle) would be given except the sign of Jonah, for the "wicked and adulterous" generation asking for a sign that they might believe. And I believe that argument was properly addressed by the verses;

[LifeHiscost]

Isn't prophecy a sign? So you're saying that we don't need any signs? And wouldn't a sign be considered evidence?

"...Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. "1 Corinthians 14:23 NLT

The context of this statement was made when speaking in unknown tongues as a sign was an issue. However since it seems your purpose to punch holes in all of the messages from the Word is here put on display, it seems detrimental to the possibility of any individual, save God Himself, to break through your resistance to His pleading for your soul. At least He hasn't given me the patience to bear with your reticence to see the Word as revealing ought to you except the necessity to express foolhardy ridicule. May God have mercy on your soul.

"And Jesus prayed, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. "Luke 23:34 AMP

Regards!