Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 I am against pressuring victims of rape and incest, or mothers/parents who might be carrying an unborn who don't have any chance for any kind of meaningful life into bringing them up into the world. Are you sure you can accurately determine which unborn will have a “meaningful life”? Are you that smart? This is where it is better to err on the side of caution. As far as I understand, the best experts have miss diagnosed the potential outcome of some pregnancies.Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Does this mean that one crime deserves another? Originally Posted By: Gerry Why do you keep putting a yoke on girls/women where none should be? A basic premise as far as justice is concerned is the notion that the punishment must be commensurate with the gravity of the crime. This is why society does not impose the death penalty on the perpetrator; nevertheless, it imposes the death penalty on the innocent unborn baby. This is a miscarriage of justice to the highest degree in my book. Can you follow my logic? Where did I go wrong? Why can't you admit that killing the innocent is wrong. Terribly wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: CoAspen Agree with your postings, consistent reasoning! TU Ok, you may not agree with my postings but I think I have some consistent reasoning too. Well, between you and Gerry Cabalo lies my position. You both are doing a great job in this discussion. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 BTW, I haven't seen you answer my question if you call a fertilized egg a chicken, or call every acorn an oak.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, RSV. Exodus 21:22, 23 is a difficult passage to translate which is why different English versions translate it differently. After studying it exhaustively, I have concluded that it cannot honestly be used in the abortion debate either for or against. That said, I see both sides trying to use it to support their positions. If we come to the passage honestly - not looking for the Bible to support our preconceived ideas - but looking for what the Bible actually says about the issue, I do not think we can draw a conclusion from this passage. The meaning is determined by the Hebrew word yatsa' in verse 22. Some versions translate this miscarriage and other translate it premature birth. The word literally means "to come out". The passage doesn't tell us if the baby comes out dead or alive. I tend to believe that it means the baby is born premature. I believe that because of the context the word harm is used. The word harm is obviously referring to death. Verse 23 makes that clear. So it is saying if a woman tries to break up a fight between two men and her baby comes out, and yet no death follows, the one that hurt her shall be fined. But if death follows he shall be killed. If the passage was talking about the death of the woman, the fact that she was pregnant or had a miscarriage would be irrelevant. If two men are fighting and a woman tries to break them apart and one of the men kills her, they would be put to death regardless if the woman was pregnant or not. The focus of the passage seems to focus on how to deal with the loss of the child. That is how it seems to read to me. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 The canon of scripture are the OT & NT from which ALL doctrines of faith and morals are to be based on. I can't bet my life on something not inspired. How do you know that the Didache was not inspired? Does the portion of said document I quoted fail the test of inspiration? How narrow is your view of inspiration? Did you ever feel inspired to write something? Have you read Joel 2:28? Do you believe said promise? The Didache is a historical document and it illustrates the fact that the Apostles considered abortion equivalent to murder. This tradition was maintained by the Christian church throughout two millennia and was inherited by the Adventist pioneers. Do you really doubt this, or do you question it for the sake of validating your position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2010 I wonder how the rabbis understood the text? PK, are you following this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry The canon of scripture are the OT & NT from which ALL doctrines of faith and morals are to be based on. I can't bet my life on something not inspired. How do you know that the Didache was not inspired? We don't!!! All I know is that it is not included in the canon of scripture. Now, the Catholic church which you claim to have preserved what the Apostles handed down, also have several books included in their Bible that they believe to be inspired but which Protestants reject, should we accept them as inspired and use them for doctrine? Quote: Does the portion of said document I quoted fail the test of inspiration? How narrow is your view of inspiration? Well, the men guided by the Holy Spirit to compile the canon must not have thought it to be inspired. Once you go outside Scripture, how are you going to decide what is/not inspired? Quote: Did you ever feel inspired to write something? Have you read Joel 2:28? Do you believe said promise? What if I told you that what I have been writing to refute your arguments is a fulfillment of the promise? Quote: The Didache is a historical document and it illustrates the fact that the Apostles considered abortion equivalent to murder. This tradition was maintained by the Christian church throughout two millennia and was inherited by the Adventist pioneers. Do you really doubt this, or do you question it for the sake of validating your position? See my comments above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Do you see a BOY in every spermatozoon No, but I see a human being in every fertilized ovum. If you were presented a fertilized ovum of a dog, monkey, & human, would you tell the difference? Quote: Originally Posted By: Gerry And where is YOUR sense of justice and fairness? Exactly. This is the question I have been asking since the beginning. What kind of justice will allow the execution of the innocent while letting the criminal rapist live? You still did not answer the question. Where is you sense of justice for the victim? You keep claiming that a pregnancy resulting from a violent invasion of privacy is innocent. Did the girl/woman ask for it? Invited to be raped? The physical and psychic trauma from rape is bad enough, now you want the woman to carry the reminder every day for a whole NINE months? And risk her life too? And carrying the stigma of pregnancy for a young and single? Loss of income, possibly a job, social life for the adult? Where is your sense of justice and fairness? Quote: Originally Posted By: Gerry Where do YOU place the rights and freedom of the victim as to what to do with something that was forced on her? Carrying the pregnancy to term and giving the baby up for adoption is the best option for everybody, I believe, Best option according to who? Why not let the victim and her family decide what is best for her? Is that too much to ask? Quote: including the pregnant female. An abortion will never un-rape the girl or woman. A pregnancy lasts nine months while the results of abortion last a lifetime and there is no way to reverse the consequences of such an irreversible action. Yeah, it's easy for you to say. Nine months of carrying the stigma, a daily reminder of the physical and psychic trauma? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2010 Quote: What is your best estimate about the percentage of abortions which are done at the 4, 8, 64, or 256-cell stage? Does it approach the one percent? That is why it should be restricted to the early weeks of pregnancy. Quote: Our social security fund is almost depleted, and we are living on borrowed funds from the Chinese. A significant percentage of those fifty million aborted babies could be by now working to help support the growing number of retirees who can no longer produce. Was the decision to legalize the killing of our future workers a smart one? Oh, you want to save babies to keep you comfortable in your retirement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Guilt kills...If guilt is a gift, and it kills, then what you are saying directly goes to the character of God...that is, He is out to kill and that is bad...If you are trying to say that God is like this, then you have just converted me to Athesim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Does this mean that one crime deserves another? Originally Posted By: Gerry The more serious crime is to add insult to the injury by requiring/compelling the victim of rape or incest to carry a pregnancy they do not want and then making them feel guilty if they chose to terminate it. An even greater insult is to force or entice the pregnant female to break God's Holy Law which forbids the killing of an innocent human being. Studies have shown that women who have had an abortion are more likely to suffer from depression and more likely to become addicted to drugs. Is this what you want for the victims of rape? Abortion is not redemptive. Adoption is! Abortion is the opposite of the example set by Jesus Christ who came to redeem us from guilt and sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Did you read the two conservative commentaries' comment on the passage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry You're against instruments? What if we just used a pill? Wrong! I am against the violation of God’s Holy Law which was given for our own protection and the protection of the innocents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk I seems that you have forgotten that when the pioneers were alive aborion was illegal. Why would they discuss those special cases if abortion was illegal? There was no point in even trying. Had they thought that there were valid exceptions, at least one of them would have said something. Originally Posted By: Gerry And why would they even discuss abortion if it was illegal and they agreed with it anyway? [/quote'] Read what they have written. They discussed this because the illegal abortions were being practiced by some members of all classes of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 One minute you are lauding the Catholic stand on abortion because you believe they got it from the Apostles. Now you say they are wrong on this point. How do you know they did not get this from the Apostles also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Innocent? What do you call invading someone's privacy WITHOUT permission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2010 Since we are now just repeating ourselves in just slightly different words, and since up to now it has been mostly men who have been discussing something that concerns mostly the well-being of women and men only peripherally, let us invite the women to weigh in with their opinions and reasons for their position. So far I have not seen anything from your arguments to change my thinking. In the meantime, I'll start a new thread as to when we can call the product of pregnancy a human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Re: the concept of Guilt kills Yes, the sense of guilt makes life miserable and it can lead to depression and eventual death. This was the experience of David, the King of Israel: Quote: My guilt has overwhelmed me like a burden too heavy to bear. [Psalm 38:4] He decided to confess his sin to the Lord, and look at the result: Quote: Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"--and you forgave the guilt of my sin. [Psalm 32:5] If you attempt to blame God for guilt you are making a big mistake. This is precisely what Adam did when he said: Quote: The man replied, "It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it." [Gen. 3:12] Was God to blame for Adam’s sin? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Since we cannot agree on which position is correct although we both think we are correct, it must be a gray area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Not necessarily, although you're probably right about most instances. It definitely does damage to them, but many of them do go on to live full, well-adjusted lives as adults. Her life is ruined just as much as having a baby would ruin it. In either case, it can be restored. I also once worked with 2 girls, both 16 at the time, who were both raped at the age of 12. Both gave birth and kept their sons. One of them was quite talkative, so I know her story. Her sister's husband beat her up and tied her to the bed. He went to prison and her sister divorced him. She kept her son, and she adored him, even though he looked exactly like his father. She talked about him a lot. The other girl never talked about her experience, but she made it pretty obvious that she hated men. But she also was devoted to her son. At the time I worked with them, they were both in high school, and working part time at a nursing home for mentally and physically handicapped persons. Their mothers were helping them raise their boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Her life is ruined just as much as having a baby would ruin it. In either case, it can be restored. Not sure whose quoted the above, either Nic or GLC....but I take exception to the phrase "it can be restored" in this situation.... In the story, a couple of teens girls became pregnant when raped. Perhaps I am playing with semantics....but the storys given did not display a restoration of teen life....they did accelerate the growth process, forcing the teens to become mothers, and the result was that one teen hated men, the other we are not told....but she became talkative [?]... I believe that what happened was not a restorative process, but healing nevertheless occurred. How much healing, is questionable. These girls came to a place that forced them to become teen mothers...a catagory that is intuitively dangerous for the infants....due to the teens lack of maturity, and their conception of percieved dangers in life. But a "restoration"....I don't think so.. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Please re-read my post and see if you can better word your question. I did! Here is my amended question: One of our Adventist hospitals is killing innocent unborn babies by the hundreds with the full knowledge and acquiescence of the Adventist Church. It was described by one GC representative as an “abortion mill.” A few years ago there was a demonstration in front of said institution with people carrying signs which read: “Remember the Sixth Commandment.” What kind of testimony are we giving to the rest of the world? You don’t like the church to be in charge? Then perhaps we should adopt a Congregationalist type of organization where each church does its own thing. When Neal Wilson was the GC president he stated that as far as organization is concerned, the Adventist Church is very much like Rome, minus the Pope. Are you doing something to reform the kind of church structure we have inherited from those who went before us? What good would it be to have a set of fundamental beliefs if we were to alter our organizational structure? If each Adventist hospital is allowed to set its own abortion policies with certain hospitals offering even ELECTIVE abortions to their patients, what good is it for the church to continue to preach and teach that God’s Ten Commandments are still valid for us? What good is it for us to continue to claim that we are the God’s Remnant Church which keeps God Commandments if we have mimicked Rome by making one of God’s Commandments null and void by allowing some of our hospitals to murder innocent and healthy babies by the hundreds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 And what do these quotes have to do with abortion? They illustrate the fact that if Ellen White made such dreadful warnings to the Adventist Church at a time when the Adventist Church and society in general was pro-life, what would she say today when some of our hospitals are openly violating God’s Sixth Commanment by killing healthy, innocent unborn babies with the full knowledge of church leaders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Your reasoning defies common sense and logic! Originally Posted By: Shane It is not my reasoning. What I am stating is quantifiable' date=' verifiable and measurable behavior from a variety of countries and states. I once held a position very similar to yours. However I changed my position in the light of an increasing body of evidence that shows banning abortion simply doesn't work. Restricting it does. What makes sense and is logical is to do that which has worked and abandoned that which does not work. [/quote'] If what you are saying is true, then how come you have failed so far in providing some references to the sources you are relying on so that readers can verify the reliability of those statistics. I have been asking for this from day one. Are you planning to supply them? My syspicion is that they have been provided by those who profit from the abortion business. If my suspicion is true, then this would be akin to relying on statistics provided by the tobacco industry regarding the incidence and effect of smoking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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