Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Her life is ruined just as much as having a baby would ruin it. In either case, it can be restored. Not sure whose quoted the above, either Nic or GLC....but I take exception to the phrase "it can be restored" in this situation.... In the story, a couple of teens girls became pregnant when raped. Perhaps I am playing with semantics....but the storys given did not display a restoration of teen life....they did accelerate the growth process, forcing the teens to become mothers, and the result was that one teen hated men, the other we are not told....but she became talkative [?]... I believe that what happened was not a restorative process, but healing nevertheless occurred. How much healing, is questionable. These girls came to a place that forced them to become teen mothers...a catagory that is intuitively dangerous for the infants....due to the teens lack of maturity, and their conception of percieved dangers in life. But a "restoration"....I don't think so.. Are you sure the girls were fored to carry their pregnancy to term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 What happens to my body, is between me, my doctor and God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Quote: It looks like we have a tie! This means that we need to determine which interpetation more likely agrees with the rest of Scripture. I believe that: "premature buirth" makes more sense than "miscarriage." Would Jewish understanding of their own Scriptures mean anything? Would you rely on Jewish tradition as authoritative? Every translation is an interpretation, and interpretations are influenced by tradition. Certain Jewish traditions are truthful and reliable, while others are not. Let's not forget what Jesus said about Jewish tradition. For some reason many recent versions of the Bible have resorted to the use of "premature birth" when translating said passage. This, in spite of the fact that today's culture leans in favor of abortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Quote: The other gray areas you mention: How to keep the Sabbath and the Biblical Tithe have nothing to do with abortion. You might want to go back to your question. You asked for gray areas without specifying that they be all on abortion. So gave you a few examples. True, but the topic is abortion. There was no need for me to remind you of this fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 It is true that what you do with your body is between you and God. It is also true that the church will have to answer to God if it fails to warn sinners when they depart from doing God’s will. So are you saying that the church knows God's will for us as individuals, better than the individual who is praying to God for guidance, then ultimately acts on that decision? Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Can we rely on the passage we find in Exodus given the fact that women men and unborn babies were valued in terms of how much they could be sold in the open slave market? 22. And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Thanks, PK. The Jewish understanding then, at least from these two publications, is that the passage means miscarriage. Please, read my response to PK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk If what you are saying is true, then how come you have failed so far in providing some references to the sources you are relying on so that readers can verify the reliability of those statistics. I haven't failed. I have post some here. Such sources are so widely abundant, anyone can easily find them. They are quantifiable, measurable and verifiable. That means they are undeniable. And unreliable, since those quoting said statistics do not post the source of said information. They seem to mimic the same tactic used by Dr. Bernard Nathanson whose organization kept feeding fraudulent survey statistics to the media until the American public was ready to stomach the legalization of abortion in the U.S. back in 1973. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Sure' date=' if you rely on undocumented, apparently inflated statistics of those pushing for the legalization of abortion in those countries. Originally Posted By: shane I pulled my head out of the sand and quit denying reality. There isn't a giant conspiracy going on. Banning abortion simply doesn't work. I woke up and smelled that coffee some time ago. Restricting abortion is what works. I favor what works and resist what doesn't work. [/quote'] Read my previous posting! I also smelled the coffee and it smells like the statistics are the result of the product of Dr, Nathanson's clones who are using the same tactics he used to push the legalization of abortion in the U.S back in 1973. The sad and shameful story is being repeated in country after country. What worked in the U.S. is begining to work in those countries as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Liz [so are you saying that the church knows God's will for us as individuals' date=' better than the individual who is praying to God for guidance, then ultimately acts on that decision? [/quote'] What I am saying is that the church's duty is to preach God's will instead of justifying murder. This is what the church has done regarding the abortion issue. This is not the first time the Adventist Church has failed to stick to its moral duty. It failed in Nazi Germany when Hitler was engaged in the Jewish genocide. I did state that a few years ago our German and Austrian SDA leaders issued a public apology asking for forgiveness for our Adventist cooperation with Hitler. I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I would bet that, unless the church repents of its compromise regarding the abortion issue, some future SDA leaders will have to apologize again for the church's lack of moral courage to stand for what is right. We are not talking about a simple error in judgment, but rather something so serious which has deprived fifty million babies of their right to life. Some of our own hospitals are engaged in the killing of healthy babies. They have been providing ELECTIVE abortions to their patients. Doesn't this bother you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Some of our own hospitals are engaged in the killing of healthy babies. They have been providing ELECTIVE abortions to their patients. Doesn't this bother you? Nope, because according to you, EVERY abortion is elective. Sorry, but the realities of life, especially in this sinfilled world just aren't so cut and dry like that. I'm glad you have taken a stand, you certainly aren't "lukewarm" and that is a good thing. However, your message lacks grace. We are all doomed sinners, and not just because of this abortion issue, but it is by the grace of God that we can be saved. Shane, PKrause, Gerry Cabalo, and I am sure I am forgetting someone, you all have made excellent points on a most difficult topic. Since, I agree with "this side" more than "that side", and ya'll are far more articulate than I am, I think I will go back to the sidelines and continue to read along. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 3, 2010 Members Share Posted June 3, 2010 Shane, PKrause, Gerry Cabalo, and I am sure I am forgetting someone, you all have made excellent points on a most difficult topic. Since, I agree with "this side" more than "that side", and ya'll are far more articulate than I am, I think I will go back to the sidelines and continue to read along. From where I'm standing or reading it seems Nic just wants to argue the point and not allow others there opinion. Its like I'm right and why can't you see that. None of us are all right and all wrong. Like its been mention on numerous occasions, we will all have to stand up for the choice's we've made in life. Be it for deciding to have an affair, abortion, for what ever it is we've done. And as far as killing is concerned, if we don't feed ourselves correctly are we not killing ourselves also? Anyway just a few more thoughts. And Liz you've done a very good job in explaining your feelings on this matter. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2010 See the two Jewish translations that have been cited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2010 Quote: My view is that we cannot draw any reliable conclusion from this passage regarding the topic under discussion. Everything is based on the slavery institution and the monetary worth of human beings. We no longer value human life in that manner; why should we rely on this passage as evidence either way? If no reliable conclusion could be drawn from the text, why would God bother to put in such a useless piece of information? If the master could not be put to death if his slave dies at his hands, how could anyone be put to death for a miscarriage or even a premature delivery that results in death of the fetus? Can you cite ONE such precedent in Scripture or in Jewish literature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2010 You keep claiming that a pregnancy resulting from a violent invasion of privacy is innocent. That is not what I have been claiming. What I have been saying is that the unborn baby cannot be guilty of the invasion. The baby was not even in existence when the rape took place. The baby was the result of the rape, not its causing agent. Neither you nor I were in existence when A & E sinned, we were doomed, children of wrath the moment we were born! Originally Posted By: Gerry Did the girl/woman ask for it? Invited to be raped? Of course not! Why then do you want to compel a girl/woman who refuses to carry such pregnancy to term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2010 The physical and psychic trauma from rape is bad enough, now you want the woman to carry the reminder every day for a whole NINE months? A “whole nine months” is a short time when compared with the total deprivation of life itself suffered by the victim of abortion. That's easy for you to say. Why not let the victim decide? Quote: Originally Posted By: Gerry And risk her life too? Experts have stated there is less risk an carrying the pregnancy to terms than the risk connected with abortion. Read the book titled “Lime” by Mark Crutcher. It documents hundreds of cases that show evidence of this. Yeah, there are such claims that the maternal mortality rate is 3x those that carry it to term. If this includes ILLEGAL abortions, I might believe it. But I just looked at a couple of references, and that doesn't seem to hold up. From the OB-GYN 8/77 vol 32 Issue 8 pp 525-526, the article "Legal Abortion Mortality 1972-1974", the mortality rate cited was 3.9/100,000. From the CDC 2004, the mortality rate for women carrying their pregnancy to term was 8.9/100,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsducky Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Shane Please re-read my post and see if you can better word your question. I did! Here is my amended question: One of our Adventist hospitals is killing innocent unborn babies by the hundreds with the full knowledge and acquiescence of the Adventist Church. It was described by one GC representative as an “abortion mill.” A few years ago there was a demonstration in front of said institution with people carrying signs which read: “Remember the Sixth Commandment.” What kind of testimony are we giving to the rest of the world? You don’t like the church to be in charge? Then perhaps we should adopt a Congregationalist type of organization where each church does its own thing. When Neal Wilson was the GC president he stated that as far as organization is concerned, the Adventist Church is very much like Rome, minus the Pope. Are you doing something to reform the kind of church structure we have inherited from those who went before us? What good would it be to have a set of fundamental beliefs if we were to alter our organizational structure? If each Adventist hospital is allowed to set its own abortion policies with certain hospitals offering even ELECTIVE abortions to their patients, what good is it for the church to continue to preach and teach that God’s Ten Commandments are still valid for us? What good is it for us to continue to claim that we are the God’s Remnant Church which keeps God Commandments if we have mimicked Rome by making one of God’s Commandments null and void by allowing some of our hospitals to murder innocent and healthy babies by the hundreds? What a sad set of events. Which hospitals are involved in this practice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 3, 2010 Members Share Posted June 3, 2010 Oh please. Must we continue with finger-pointing? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I also smelled the coffee and it smells like the statistics are the result of the product of Dr, Nathanson's clones who are using the same tactics he used to push the legalization of abortion in the U.S back in 1973. The sad and shameful story is being repeated in country after country. What worked in the U.S. is begining to work in those countries as well. I think that is a bit of wishful thinking on your part. There is simply no evidence that all the studies done throughout the world at various different times, in various different cultures and on various different continents are all involved in a vast conspiracy to promote legalized abortion. Pro-life forces are extremely strong, well-financed and influential. A world-wide pro-abortion conspiracy could not go unexposed. The fact is that banning abortion doesn't work. Restricting abortion does. We can decided to embrace what works or what doesn't. If we actually care about saving the lives of the unborn, we will choose what works. If we just want to advance a political agenda regardless of the facts, then we can embrace what doesn't work and let the blood of the unborn flow deeper. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Nope, because according to you, EVERY abortion is elective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 From where I'm standing or reading it seems Nic just wants to argue the point and not allow others their opinions. I do not agree with your statement. I have a question for you: Did I start this thread in order to listen to myself talking about abortion, or did I start it to learn what others thought about this issue? My purpose was twofold: Sharing with others what I had learned as a result of my investigation and reading the reaction of other Adventists to what I had discovered after spending thousands of hours perusing through everything our Adventist publications had written about the topic between 1970 and 2006. I believe that my objective has been reached. Did you notice that the majority of my postings were in response to comments where my name was mentioned? Would it be a sign of courtesy if I decided to ignore the comments other were making about what I had stated. Many of those comments included questions directed at me. Should I have refused to answer those questions and arguments? If you really want me to be silent, there is an easy solution: Ignore me! Stop asking me questions! Stop qyoting me! Direct your comments towards the statements made by others. I encourage you to try this effective method. I believe that if you do, you may see that my comments diminish in a very significant way. That is my suggestion. It’s worth trying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 If no reliable conclusion could be drawn from the text, why would God bother to put in such a useless piece of information? Did you read pkrause’s comments. He thinks I should keep my mouth shut. How can I do this when other people continue to make references to what I had stated. I told him that if he wants me to talk less, he needs to tell others about the need to try ignoring me and what I have said. My answer to your question is as follows: I do not believe that God is the author of the Bible. The Lord wrote the Ten Commandments and nothing else. Jesus wrote something on the sand, but the wind blew away what he wrote. I agree with Ellen White’s opinion on this: God is not represented in the Bible as an author. He inspired people to write certain things, but the words and the mode of expressions belongs to them, not to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Why then do you want to compel a girl/woman who refuses to carry such pregnancy to term? First a word for pkrause: Did you notice that this question was directed at me and what I had stated? Do you think that I should ignore Gerry’s question? You think that I have talked enough already, but others keep directing their remarks at me. What can I do? Tell them to ignore me and what I have said, and you will see my comments diminished! Now my answer to you, Gerry: I have no power to compel any girl to do anything. All I can do is to express my opinion about how serious is the practice of ignoring one of God’s Commandments. They were designed to be a warning sign for us. Every time I approach the freeway, I see signs which read: “Wrong Way!” Would it be wise to remove those signs so that people might enjoy their freedom of choice? Isn’t this what our Adventist Church has done with the publication of the “Guidelines on Abortion” and by granting our hospitals carte blanche for the killing of healthy innocent babies? Why do we need said guidelines? Isn’t the sixth Commandment enough guidelines for us? The Southern Baptist organization has no such guidelines. They simply do not kill babies. The same is true about the Catholic Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 4, 2010 Members Share Posted June 4, 2010 Most men visiting a prostitute wear protection... and just how would you know that, Nic? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: pkrause From where I'm standing or reading it seems Nic just wants to argue the point and not allow others their opinions. If you really want me to be silent, ....! im not sure how you went from pkrauses statement to your conclusion...could you enlighten us as to your thought process to do that? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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