What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

From where I'm standing or reading it seems Nic just wants to argue the point and not allow others their opinions.

Did you read pkrause’s comments. He thinks I should keep my mouth shut. ...

here also im not seeing the connection between your conclusion and what pkrause did in actuality say...

[Nic Samojluk]

That's easy for you to say. Why not let the victim decide?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic

I did! Here is my amended question:

One of our Adventist hospitals is killing innocent unborn babies by the hundreds with the full knowledge and acquiescence of the Adventist Church. It was described by one GC representative as an “abortion mill.” A few years ago there was a demonstration in front of said institution with people carrying signs which read: “Remember the Sixth Commandment.” What kind of testimony are we giving to the rest of the world?

You don’t like the church to be in charge? Then perhaps we should adopt a Congregationalist type of organization where each church does its own thing. When Neal Wilson was the GC president he stated that as far as organization is concerned, the Adventist Church is very much like Rome, minus the Pope. Are you doing something to reform the kind of church structure we have inherited from those who went before us?

What good would it be to have a set of fundamental beliefs if we were to alter our organizational structure? If each Adventist hospital is allowed to set its own abortion policies with certain hospitals offering even ELECTIVE abortions to their patients, what good is it for the church to continue to preach and teach that God’s Ten Commandments are still valid for us?

What good is it for us to continue to claim that we are the God’s Remnant Church which keeps God Commandments if we have mimicked Rome by making one of God’s Commandments null and void by allowing some of our hospitals to murder innocent and healthy babies by the hundreds?

What a sad set of events. Which hospitals are involved in this practice?

Good question! My understanding is that the main institution is the Washington Adventist Hospital. Our official "Ministry" magazine reported a few years ago that five of our hospitals were offering elective abortion services to their patients. They did not provide the names of those hospitals. This means that some of our Adventist hospitals are engaged in the business of killing healthy babies.

[Nic Samojluk]

Oh please. Must we continue with finger-pointing?

I am simply answering questions. Do not forget the title of this thread: "What I Learned About Abortion and the Adventist Church." As long as some of the readers keep asking questions I am duty bound to respond. I can stop anytime. The secret to shut me up is to stop directing the questions and remarks at me.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

If no reliable conclusion could be drawn from the text, why would God bother to put in such a useless piece of information?

My answer to your question is as follows: I do not believe that God is the author of the Bible. The Lord wrote the Ten Commandments and nothing else. Jesus wrote something on the sand, but the wind blew away what he wrote.

Are you saying that except for the 10c, the Bible is merely man's production? That what Moses wrote were his own ideas? That when he talked to God (on one occasion 40 days & nights) they just talked shop? You don't believe that the messages of the Bible were "God-breathed?" That the writers were not "carried along by the Holy Spirit?"

Quote:

I agree with Ellen White’s opinion on this: God is not represented in the Bible as an author. He inspired people to write certain things, but the words and the mode of expressions belongs to them, not to God.

The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. GC introduction.

But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14. {GC v.4}

[Gerr]

From the OB-GYN 8/77 vol 32 Issue 8 pp 525-526, the article "Legal Abortion Mortality 1972-1974", the mortality rate cited was 3.9/100,000. From the CDC 2004, the mortality rate for women carrying their pregnancy to term was 8.9/100,000.

Is this information online? If it is, can you provide the Internet link to it? I noticed that the statistics is for 1972-1974, which coincides with the time when inflated figures favoring the legalization of abortion were provided by Dr. Bernard Nathanson to the media. His strategy paid off the coveted results and abortion was legalized.

I got these online. Just google "maternal mortality rates for abortion" and "mortality rates for pregnancy carried to term."

[Gerr]

Now my answer to you, Gerry: I have no power to compel any girl to do anything. All I can do is to express my opinion about how serious is the practice of ignoring one of God’s Commandments. They were designed to be a warning sign for us.

Every time I approach the freeway, I see signs which read: “Wrong Way!” Would it be wise to remove those signs so that people might enjoy their freedom of choice?

Are you sure the "Wrong Way" sign is on the right and not on the left? From where I'm driving, on the cases we have been discussing, the sign is on my left, and that my way is "full speed ahead," or at best, "proceed with caution."

Quote:

Isn’t this what our Adventist Church has done with the publication of the “Guidelines on Abortion” and by granting our hospitals carte blanche for the killing of healthy innocent babies?

Just for the record: I am against our hospitals granting doctors carte blanche termination of pregnancies except for the ones I have already mentioned.

Quote:

Why do we need said guidelines? Isn’t the sixth Commandment enough guidelines for us? The Southern Baptist organization has no such guidelines. They simply do not kill babies. The same is true about the Catholic Church.

Because not all agree with the Baptist, Catholic, or your position/interpretation!!!

[Nic Samojluk]

There is simply no evidence that all the studies done throughout the world at various different times, in various different cultures and on various different continents are all involved in a vast conspiracy to promote legalized abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic

Most men visiting a prostitute wear protection...

and just how would you know that, Nic?

In countries where prostitution has been legalized, the wearing of protection is mandatory. The reports I have read so far tend to confirm this. I have no personal experience to document this and I have no desire to experiment, if this is what you want to see.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

If you really want me to be silent' date=' ....!

Originally Posted By: teresa

I'm not sure how you went from pkrauses statement to your conclusion...could you enlighten us as to your thought process to do that? [/quote']

If I misinterpreted what PK said, let him correct me. There was no way of interpreting what he stated in a literal manner, since I have no power to cotrol what others are posting or how many comments those who disagree with me are contributing to this discussion.

This is an open forum, and each one is free to post as many comments as he/she wants. I have no power to limit this nor do I desire to be in possession of such power. This is why I figured that what he meant was that I was posting more comments than I should.

[Nic Samojluk]

Are you saying that except for the 10c, the Bible is merely man's production? That what Moses wrote were his own ideas?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Are you saying that except for the 10c, the Bible is merely man's production? That what Moses wrote were his own ideas?

Did I suggest that? I attempted to paraphrase what Ellen White has written explaining how inspiration works. Here are her actual words. Read them and make up your mind whether she did believe in verbal inspiration:

Nic, here are your exact words:

Originally Posted By: Nic

My answer to your question is as follows: I do not believe that God is the author of the Bible. The Lord wrote the Ten Commandments and nothing else. Jesus wrote something on the sand, but the wind blew away what he wrote

But EGW says: "The Bible points to God as its AUTHOR."

Your quote says:

Quote:

"The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers.

It may seem like just semantics, but what she says as God being the AUTHOR contradicts what you said. As a WRITER, no, God is not represented because the Bible was written by men in the language of men.

[phkrause]

If I misinterpreted what PK said, let him correct me.

If what I said made you feel that this is what I meant I apologize. All I meant was that it seems you prefer to argue instead of stating opinions. That's all I was saying. Now I could be wrong, but that is only my opinion!

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I am still waiting for you to provide me with a link to serious documented evidence for the statistics favoring your view.

[Nic Samojluk]

I got these online. Just google "maternal mortality rates for abortion" and "mortality rates for pregnancy carried to term."

[Nic Samojluk]

Are you sure the "Wrong Way" sign is on the right and not on the left?

[Nic Samojluk]

But EGW says: "The Bible points to God as its AUTHOR."

[karl]

In a nation almost obsessive about child safety and neonatal care, it is astounding to me that the most dangerous place for a baby to be, statistically speaking, is in his/her mother's womb.

God help us.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

If I misinterpreted what PK said, let him correct me.

If what I said made you feel that this is what I meant I apologize. All I meant was that it seems you prefer to argue instead of stating opinions. That's all I was saying. Now I could be wrong, but that is only my opinion!

pk

There is no need for you to apologize. I have given enough evidence of talking more than others. Nevertheless, there is a logical reason for this: Most of the criticism was aimed at my position and I felt a need to respond. I do not see a real difference between arging in favour on one's views and stating ones opinion.

When I state my opinion, I do it with the awareness that I could be wrong; nevertheless, I don't see myself defending my views for the sake of argument. If I didn't really believe what I am defending I would not have invested a fortune into the investigation of this issue.

I have done this out of conviction instead of a desire to simply argue with others who view this issue from their own perspective.

[Nic Samojluk]

That is like waiting for evidence the sky is blue. One need just to open their eyes and look to see the obvious.

[Nic Samojluk]

What no conspiracies..that's a relief!!!!

Sorry to give you the bad news, but your relief may not be long lasting. I could be wrong about the conspiracy idea, but the pattern is there for all to see. What took place before the legalization of abortion in the U.S. seems to be repeated in other countries today.

[Nic Samojluk]

In a nation almost obsessive about child safety and neonatal care, it is astounding to me that the most dangerous place for a baby to be, statistically speaking, is in his/her mother's womb.

God help us.

Your timely comments are like a glass of cool water in the desert. Thanks for your posting!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Are you sure the "Wrong Way" sign is on the right and not on the left?

Are you suggesting that the Sixth Commandment might have been misplaced by God?

NO! Not at all!. IMHO, it is you who has misplaced/misapplied the commandment. To charge someone who is merely trying to defend herself with murder is ridiculous!

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Just for the record: I am against our hospitals granting doctors carte blanche termination of pregnancies except for the ones I have already mentioned.

Excellent! Since we agree on this, shouldn’t we perhaps join hands wit all those who are likeminded and exert our influence on the church with our voice, our billfolds, and our feet in order that we hopefully stop the killing of at least the healthy unborn babies in our Adventist hospitals?

Sorry, but I don't want to be identified with your extreme position.

[Gerr]

If I were you, I would be very wary making a statement like: "I don't believe that God is the author of the Bible."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

I got these online. Just google "maternal mortality rates for abortion" and "mortality rates for pregnancy carried to term."

I spent a considerable amount of time attempting to locate the statistics you provided without success. If you can provide me with the actual link to said statistics, I’ll be happy to examine it and give you my opinion. I need to see the information within its proper context and examine the source of said statistical information. Without the proper context, the text becomes a pretext.

Use google for your search engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

From the OB-GYN 8/77 vol 32 Issue 8 pp 525-526, the article "Legal Abortion Mortality 1972-1974", the mortality rate cited was 3.9/100,000. From the CDC 2004, the mortality rate for women carrying their pregnancy to term was 8.9/100,000.

On the surface it looks like we are not comparing apples with apples. The 3,9/100,000 datum seems to correspond to the years 1972-1974, while the 8.9/100,000 to 2004. My question is: Why would the mortality rate increase following the legalization of abortion. It should have decreased if your theory is correct, shouldn’t it?

Please read it carefully. The 3.9/100,000 is maternal mortality for legal abortion. The 8.9 is for maternal mortality for women who carried their pregnancy to term or till delivery, not for abortion. IOW, those who delivered their babies had a higher mortality than those that aborted.