Nic Samojluk Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Dr. Gerry is not arguing the same thing that I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 The question is on "restoration"....not forcing to carry to term the pregnancy. Can you provide the source for the story in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 The question is on "restoration"....not forcing to carry to term the pregnancy. Can you provide the source for the story in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 You have tried to present guilt as sin, not just sinful. And guilt kills...ALL GUILT KILLS. no exceptions....If the HS uses guilt to convert us, then the Character of God is such that there is a shadow of badness in God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Why would I spend an hour trying to locate the document you cited and then ask for your help in locating said document if I am not interested in the facts you did provide? Ten minutes with Google will provide enough information to convince anyone actually looking for truth. Some can't find truth for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. They really don't want to find it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Yes, there is a small difference between your argument and his; nevertheless, the data I provided negates both of your assertions. There is a huge difference between the point I am making and that Dr, Gerry is making. They are not even related. The data you provided relates to the position Dr. Gerry is taking and has absolutely no bearing on the point I have made. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 According to a recent CDC report based on voluntary reporting by 47 states, the District of Columbia, and New York City, the number of legal induced abortions in the U.S. dropped from 848,163 in 2003 to 839,226 in 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Well; I read the title of this topic, then I read through it - I don't think you have learned too much Nic Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Can you see the flaw in your argument? Would you blame an architect for designing a building with a fire alarm? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 9, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 9, 2010 Look, Nic. I am not trying to ignore the evidence that you have cited. But when I did a google search, and then did a medical literature search with Journal Watch, those were the stats that came up. So which stats do we place our confidence in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 According to this report from the CDC, the number, rate, and ratio of legal induced abortions in the U.S. continued to decline in 2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 Finally, clinicians should recognize that the abortion-related maternal mortality ratio remains less than one tenth of the pregnancy-related maternal mortality ratio of 13.2 per 100,000 live births (MMWR Surveill Summ 2003; 52[sS-2]:3). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 Here's the beginning of the classical Hippocratic oath: The Hippocratic Oath: Classical Version I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: Since no one believes in swearing by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panaceia, this was replaced by the modern version when I went to med school. Yes! Was the deletion of the prohibition against abortion done for the same reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 That's YOUR belief, YOUR own interpretation of the 6th commandment. You have already agreed that the conceptus resulting from rape IS NOT A WELCOME GUEST. If it is not a welcome guest, then it is an intruder, a party crasher, a home home invader!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: Shane Ten minutes with Google will provide enough information to convince anyone actually looking for truth. Some can't find truth for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. They really don't want to find it. Yes' date=' I did find the truth about maternal mortality rates in the U.S. and I posted the results in a previous posting. Did you read it? What I was talking about was something different. I was referring to the task of trying to locate the statistics you had quoted without the proper reference. Such a task can take a very long time. Let me illustrate this. I just typed the phrase "maternal mortality rates" and got Quote: 26,900 results.http://www.bing.com/search?q=maternal+mo...sk=&sc=2-24 [/quote'] How long would it take you to wade through all this data in order to locate the statistics you cited? This is why I asked you to provide me with the reference. Was my request unreasonable? Providing the reference to material you are relying on is standard practice today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: Shane There is a huge difference between the point I am making and that Dr, Gerry is making. They are not even related. The data you provided relates to the position Dr. Gerry is taking and has absolutely no bearing on the point I have made. [/quote'] I suggest the following: Can we start over? You post your favorite statistics with the proper reference favoring your view regarding the maternal mortality so that I can read the context and I will respond with my favorite statistics with the proper reference supporting my views so that you can read the context. This way readers will be able to compare the two and make an intelligent choice between the two. Is this a fair deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Well; I read the title of this topic, then I read through it - I don't think you have learned too much Nic True! I haven't learned enough, but I did discover more than enough evidence in support of my theory that the Adventist has deviated from its original pro-life position regarding abortion. I also learned that some of our Adventist hospitals are killing innocent and healthy unborn babies. This is sufficient knowledge to justify the urgent need to get our church out of the abortion business. Today I learned that there is a new film which will be airing soon dealing with the Adventist tradition regarding the sanctity of human life and the Adventist aversion towards the killing of human beings. It is the legendary story of Desmond T. Doss; a man who refused to carry a gun in self defense while feaverishly working to save the lives of wounded American soldiers. He became a heroe and was condecorated by President Truman. He suffered abuse, ridicule, threats of severe disciplinary action and jail; and he had to dodge the bullets of enemy fire, but he did not budge in his decision to honor the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue. Contrast this with the attitude of Adventists today who are engaged in the killing--not of enemies in self defense--but the killing of their own unborn children. It is suprising that you haven't read my dissertation, but you have concluded that I have not learned enough. You must be a clairvoyant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: Overaged Well; I read the title of this topic, then I read through it - I don't think you have learned too much Nic True! I haven't learned enough, but I did discover more than enough evidence in support of my theory that the Adventist has deviated from its original pro-life position regarding abortion. You used the correct word here....THEORY. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I was referring to the task of trying to locate the statistics you had quoted without the proper reference. You must be confusing me with someone else. Everything I have posted has been in context with proper reference. In order not to believe what I have posted one would have to be a radical, paranoid extremist that believes in a worldwide conspiracy spanning over three decades. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I suggest the following: Can we start over? You post your favorite statistics... regarding the maternal mortality... How about actually reading my posts. I am not and never have been talking maternal mortality rates. That is a discussion you are having with someone else. I have been talking about how abortion rates in states and nations where abortion is restricted are much less than abortion rates in nations where abortion is banned. In order not to believe that, one has to believe there is a worldwide conspiracy which includes members of the media, various levels of various governments, doctors, hospitals and churches. It is just mind boggling. That would be a bigger conspiracy than the vast right-wing one that got that stain on Monica's dress. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 10, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2010 Quote: Nic Samojluk: Today I learned that there is a new film which will be airing soon dealing with the Adventist tradition regarding the sanctity of human life and the Adventist aversion towards the killing of human beings. It is the legendary story of Desmond T. Doss; a man who refused to carry a gun in self defense while feaverishly working to save the lives of wounded American soldiers. He became a heroe and was condecorated by President Truman. He suffered abuse, ridicule, threats of severe disciplinary action and jail; and he had to dodge the bullets of enemy fire, but he did not budge in his decision to honor the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue. Desmond T. Doss supported the US war against Japan. He wasn't opposed to it. He referred to himself as a "conscientious cooperator" and said he wished the word "objector" was left out. He didn't want to be part of the killing but he knew it had to happen if America and the world were to be free. Notice, too, that Desmond T. Doss didn't go around telling other people they were committing a crime by killing Japanese soldiers or Nazis. He didn't believe they were. He left that judgment in God's hands where it belongs. I refused to carry a weapon during the Vietnam war, but I didn't tell other soldiers they were wrong to carry or use their weapons. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 [Desmond T. Doss supported the US war against Japan. He wasn't opposed to it. He referred to himself as a "conscientious cooperator" and said he wished the word "objector" was left out. He didn't want to be part of the killing but he knew it had to happen if America and the world were to be free. Notice, too, that Desmond T. Doss didn't go around telling other people they were committing a crime by killing Japanese soldiers or Nazis. He didn't believe they were. He left that judgment in God's hands where it belongs. I refused to carry a weapon during the Vietnam war, but I didn't tell other soldiers they were wrong to carry or use their weapons. The difference is, John , that Doss was acting in harmony with established SDA tradition (that carrying weapons was left to the conscience of the individual) whereas abortion was not considered in the same category. NO ONE ( until the late 1960's when Adventism began to reinvent their thinking on the subject)left the morality of killing one's unborn up to the conscience of the individual unless it endangered the mother's life. Again, protection of the unborn was so important that EGW criticized those parents who neglected prenatal care, both of the child and the mother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 If God were the architect, I would blame God for creating an environment that allowed the building for possibly catching fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Your premise is that the gospel goes counter to healing relationships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Look, Nic. I am not trying to ignore the evidence that you have cited. But when I did a google search, and then did a medical literature search with Journal Watch, those were the stats that came up. So which stats do we place our confidence in? Those which make more logical sense. Our job is to weigh the evidence. Have you done so? Can we place your best evidence next to the best evidence I have discovered? I suggest that we try. And let's make sure that we provide the Internet link so that the context can be examined and verified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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