Guest Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Not only do I go to an SDA church..I teach at one ..so I am very sensitive to details in the sermons... Since many pastors do not share why they have a certain TOPIC during a certain sabbath...I have to analyze this and determine so I can get the proper significance to the message. I was a litle disappointed when even my Baptist preacher friend seemed timid about the use too. There is an antinomian stigma prevalent all around...the legalist label has had a large impact...the word grace has been corrupted and the clergy are wimping out... pathetic... what leadership??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWhetmore Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Shane asked about the ugliness of opossums. Actually, when they're all cleaned up and fluffy, they're kinda cute, like a long nosed cat with too many teeth, human hands for feet, and clever, prehensile, bald tails! When we took our kids to a nature center in Nashville, they had one there that was a pet. Since he wasn't subsisting as one of nature's garbage people, his fur wasn't all greasy and dirty. Later, my son found a little baby 'possum, and adopted it as a pet. It soon became attached to him. It's little feet were remarkable. We only had it a few weeks, when we had to take a trip. It somehow sneaked out of the motel bathroom tub where we had put it for the night, and crawled up into bed with him. It died, there beside him. To this day, he's sure he somehow smothered it. It was fun while it lasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 ORAL, ONAN, OKAY, OVEY, OHNO!, OHMY..... Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: Good post Nico.. Now throw out some thoughts as to why there is this uncomfortable feeling in the pulpit for using the "O" word.. Whenever you feel so inclined Might have to wait on this one, JB, because I can't think of any. All 3 of the churches I go to on Sabbath (yes, I church hop! If I time it right I can catch all 3!) speak of obeying. Not in every sermon, but they don't have a problem talking about being doers of the Word. Our own pastor was emphasizing that very point when he preached from Nehemiah 8 last sabbath. I think it's a matter of HOW it is done, that is, how obedience is presented. It can be presented as a burden or as a joy. Maybe if the pastor thinks it's burdensome to himself or his congregants he will avoid the word? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 See, I really don't see a surge of antinomianism going on. I see that legalism has hurt more people than necessary, and there is still some attempt going forth to address that which dominates the church trend, but I see this overall as a good thing, and again, as NOT setting aside obedience to do so, just setting aside the false notion that falling short deprives us of Grace. Grace is there for us WHEN we fall short, WHEN we don't cut the mustard, and all THROUGH the learning and growing. Grace is there because we don't obey perfectly -- didn't in the past, don't now -- and it is this goodness of God that LEADS us to repentance, leads us to desire to please Him, to turn around and WANT to learn to obey Him, learn to agree with Him. All He asks is that we agree with Him about what is truth and what is sin, and He promises to take us all the way and do the rest, including giving us new hearts that delight to serve Him, and the knowledge of how, and ability to, obey Him. That's how I understand things anyway. I'm still learning and growing myself. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 The gospel is GOOD NEWS. It isn't good news that we fail to obey, that we "suck", we fall so short, we are so selfish and rotten and evil. Good news is that God loves us and has a plan to turn that around, and we can choose to come to Him JUST AS WE ARE to receive the fullness of His goodness and love toward us in Christ, and be renewed, regenerated, remade, resurrected into NEW LIFE, set FREE from bondage to sin, Satan, and self, BEGINNING with freedom from the PENALTIES of that bondage, and leading into freedom from the EXPERIENCE of that bondage, and finally in the end, ultimate freedom when He returns, from the very PRESENCE of that bondage altogether. The good news is that we may be delivered from sin ... not how much we are mired in it. But yes, some knowledge of that miring is needed so that the good news will be seen as good and needful! The grace of God is that good news, His grace toward us proclaimed IS that gospel. It is never cheap. I have never understood that notion, personally, because I am not wired to automatically consider the display and affirmation of love as open season license to take advantage of another. I am wired to value love and return it where it is shown. God made me thus, not I myself. But I have always been like that. (This is not to glorify myself or say I've never taken advantage of another, but where I have done so it has been from the perception that other did not value nor love me to begin with and thus it was "fair dinkum" in my eyes. Not excusing this, just explaining the difference.) So I don't see how proclaiming love and grace can ever be "cheap". Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: Amelia, and Sid... very logical and interesting guesses.. The one that is the answer is more pathetic. I love guessing games, but I still have NO clue what you are talking about....another clue, please? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: Quote: Must be obey Yep..now ponder and analyze why [:"blue"]For fear of being called a legalist. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Again, I've never heard people called legalists ONLY for use of the term "obey" or "obedience". I think it depends on how they convey the concept. There are those who convey it as joyful and beautiful, a privilege. Then there are those who weigh it down with wagging fingers, sour faces, and their compulsion to make others feel worthless for not measuring up. Heck, we see this difference even as human beings raising children, and we see the results THERE -- why should responses to how this concept is communicated in regard to GOD be any different from us "adult children"? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2005 I'm sure there's some truth to what you are saying. However, you know how the pendulum swings. For the decades from the 50's through the early 80's, there was in the SDA church emphasis on obedience & perfection. Then the pendulum swung the other way and since the mid-80's, the emphasis has been on grace, to the exclusion of any mention about obedience. No matter how many times you mention that the obedience that the believer renders is never for merit but rather a loving response of gratitude from a heart redeemed from a cesspool, there is an almost reflexive suspicion of legalism whenever obedience is mentioned. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Perhaps you're right Gerry. I am not old enough to remember church history from the 1950s-1980s. I came into the SDA church in 1981 as a convert at the age of 16. My impression at the time was the biggest problem was neither legalism nor antinomianism, but plain lukewarmness -- 4th/5th/whatever gen SDAs who were raised that way and had no real personal investment in Christ themselves. There were pockets of legalism -- the historicals, the yo-yo'ers, etc. -- but they didn't dominate the church. Still, cheap grace was anathema. That was 1981-83 for me. I left in 1983. Tried coming back between 1992-94 and my impression was too many factions. All the hullaballoo about "celebration churches" and everything was a mess of chaos. I didn't need all that confusion while trying to find God. Eventually I left again. Third time: the charm? We shall see. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Third time: the charm? We shall see. [:"blue"]Just cling to Jesus, abide in Him, and all that "hullaballo" won't affect you one bit. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Shane hasn't experienced the no opology/ timid mode for "obey " by a pastor.. I see over 100 views on this..anyone hear one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Quote: No matter how many times you mention that the obedience that the believer renders is never for merit but rather a loving response of gratitude from a heart redeemed from a cesspool, there is an almost reflexive suspicion of legalism whenever obedience is mentioned. Which is reason enough to abandon use of the word. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Search: for the phrase "obedience" within Entire Bible Found: 6 works -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results 1 - 6 Group by match Romans : 5 matches 2 Corinthians : 3 matches 1 Corinthians : 1 matches 1 Peter : 1 matches Hebrews : 1 matches Philemon : 1 matches ----------------------------- Jeremiah, chapter 3 and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. Jeremiah, chapter 3 ay, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God. Jeremiah, chapter 7 I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall Jeremiah, chapter 7 is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor re Jeremiah, chapter 9 em, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; Jeremiah, chapter 11 e the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, Jeremiah, chapter 11 furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which Jeremiah, chapter 11 testing, saying, Obey my voice. Yet they obeyed not, Jeremiah, chapter 11 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every Jeremiah, chapter 12 if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nati Jeremiah, chapter 17 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made thei Jeremiah, chapter 18 y sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, Jeremiah, chapter 22 youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice. The wind sh Jeremiah, chapter 26 ur doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD wil Jeremiah, chapter 32 sed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; th Jeremiah, chapter 34 more, then they obeyed, and let them go. But aft Jeremiah, chapter 35 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our f Jeremiah, chapter 35 ents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our fa Jeremiah, chapter 35 rink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I ha Jeremiah, chapter 35 Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and Jeremiah, chapter 38 deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I Jeremiah, chapter 40 RD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon Jeremiah, chapter 42 evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send Jeremiah, chapter 42 with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God. Jeremiah, chapter 42 is land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God, Jeremiah, chapter 42 ut ye have not obeyed the voice of the LORD your God, nor any thing Jeremiah, chapter 43 ll the people, obeyed not the voice of the LORD, to dwell in the lan Jeremiah, chapter 43 gypt: for they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: thus came they even Jeremiah, chapter 44 , and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, --------------------------- 1 Samuel, chapter 8 ple refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we 1 Samuel, chapter 12 serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandme 1 Samuel, chapter 12 if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the c 1 Samuel, chapter 15 didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the 1 Samuel, chapter 15 l, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way 1 Samuel, chapter 15 acrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is b 1 Samuel, chapter 15 LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than 1 Samuel, chapter 15 he people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefor 1 Samuel, chapter 28 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst 1 Samuel, chapter 28 ne handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand ---------------------- Deuteronomy, chapter 11 blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I Deuteronomy, chapter 11 , if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but tur Deuteronomy, chapter 13 ommandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave Deuteronomy, chapter 21 , which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his m Deuteronomy, chapter 21 ous, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. Deuteronomy, chapter 27 shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his comm Deuteronomy, chapter 28 hou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy, chapter 30 God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee t Deuteronomy, chapter 30 shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandm Deuteronomy, chapter 30 that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto hi ---------------------------- Romans, chapter 2 ious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignati Romans, chapter 2 y the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Romans, chapter 6 that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neit Romans, chapter 6 es servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of Romans, chapter 6 e are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience un Romans, chapter 6 n, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was Romans, chapter 10 hey have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 24, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 24, 2005 Quote: Quote: No matter how many times you mention that the obedience that the believer renders is never for merit but rather a loving response of gratitude from a heart redeemed from a cesspool, there is an almost reflexive suspicion of legalism whenever obedience is mentioned. Which is reason enough to abandon use of the word. [:"blue"]Any suggestion for a substitute? And you'd have to revise practically ALL the translations out there because obedience/obey/keep are all in them. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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