Stan Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 What is the best way to deal with those gifted people who feel called to be the "accuser of the brethern", and are always attacking the Pastor, teacher etc. They let everyone know that they are not living up to their expectations, on pretty much everything they (others) do? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Stan, Do you want an expert's opinion? I am on my way to lead the sabbath school class...will return and see the replies and be happy to contribute and rant further.. God bless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I have a related question. What do you do when things happen that are beyond satire? Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 26, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 26, 2005 Does your question relate to how to deal with them personally or collectively? Personally is easy: 1. Ignore them. 2. Find new friends. As to how to keep them from spoiling the soup for everyone else, that's a very good question. LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Brother Stan, I was in a church that had to deal with this issue. We had two brothers that felt the need to expose our pastor for being a herotic. Well, the pastor was quite liberal and played right into their hands. They would take notes during the sermon and than send the pastor a letter detailing all the doctrinal errors of his sermons. They attended all the prayer meetings and Bible studies and challendged the pastor often. Finally the pastor called a secret board meeting where they banned these members and sent them a letter. The following Sabbath no mention was made of the meeting. When one returned a few weeks later a board member called the police and then went to court and got a restriction order against him. That opened the whole can of worms. A meeting was called of the whole congregation where the pastor anounced he would explain the situation but no one would be able to ask any questions. He proceded to list all the sins of these two guys and summed up by saying that if the congragation knew the type of sinners these guys were they wouldn't want them for members. The church had a membership of 100 and nearly 30 quit going to church or started attending a different church. The pastor did not lose his job but was told he had to look for a position in another conference. So that is how it shouldn't be handled. I think two members in good standing should visit with the person and expalin that the type of behavior will not be tolerated. If the behavior continues a church business meeting should be called for all church members - not just the board. If the pastor is the one under attack he should not be the one that calls or runs the meeting. At the business meeting the situation can be presented to the membership to disfellowship the individual. The individual should be invited to defend himself if he is civil. But he should not be allowed to stay for discussion or to witness any vote taken (his presence will intimidate some). If the individual's membership is with another congregation than the church can simply choose to ban the individual from their church and send a letter to the congregation with his membership recomending disfellowship. If the member continues to come, the court can issue a restriction order. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Quote: What is the best way to deal with those gifted people who feel called to be the "accuser of the brethern", and are always attacking the Pastor, teacher etc. They let everyone know that they are not living up to their expectations, on pretty much everything they (others) do? A key word is "expectations" Now there are different ways to "attack" the pastor.. physically , verbally in front of others, during the sermon, behind his back..same with teachers. I ask them ..what do they want...to get a clearer concept of their expectations. Happines or disappointment = reality divided by expectations. The bible can be used with these people to isolate the real issue. Some of it is related to emotional issues and the person is doing what they do for release... some call this the pot calling the kettle black syndrome (Rom 2:1) There are levels of addressing the issue depending on how serious it is. Jesus, the prophets and apostles were accusers of the "bretheren" in a certain way..if what you mean ..is on the books bretheren. There are deflect, and divert approaches..and getting them involved...with careful supervision... The easy, lazy , unChristian way is to not love one's "enemies" and kick their body ....out of the "body" Some might look at this thread and say...well jimbob..thou art the man..it takes one to know one.. I attack pastors all of the time..even on other forums.. Yet...I will report when someone does a competent job...like the sermon I heard today... Today, I visited a neighboring church and the head elder spoke instead of the 2 pastors and Hallelujah...I felt like I came home to attending a church where they had a pastor teacher.. The guy is the main sabbath school teacher. I shook his hand and encouraged him. From my experience , I wouldn't be surprised if this pastor , teacher attacker's point have merit. I would probably tell him.. "Hey, let's find the ministerial director of the church and get in his face." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 I was at the Creekside Community Church today. The person who gave the welcome and the introduction talked about the translation of the word Satan, as it means the accuser of the brethern. Thought that was timely. How is that separated from those who want to have the bar lifted higher in Church? Or those who want the bar lifted higher in other peoples lives? Or those who want it higher in their own lives? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Did the speaker mention why he/she took the time to say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 You know what???..this can be a viscious circle...a speaker can be an accuser of the bretheren by accusing the bretheren of being accusers of the bretheren. How about when a pastor mentions that we are Laodicea...isn't that being an accuser of the bretheren? Unless a speaker gives some background or context....any time they make a judgement call or any criticism..it can be called accusing the bretheren or hate speech or insolent or untactful or evil speaking.. get my drift.. Even here when I am in pastors face...I give details...I don't just vent out of the blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: I was at the Creekside Community Church today. Stan, Just curious...did the speaker give a NFDMTTS? or even a topical sermon?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have met a few people in church like the ones described on this forum. Having gotten to know a few of them a little, I have found them to be nice and polite, hard to relate to on a personal level, and extremely perfectionistic. And the ones that take notes to use against others, I refer to as score keepers. The ones that I know give the impression that they know everything and are always right. Some are master manipulators, who, in their nicest voice, will throw scripture at you in order to get their own way. On occasion, I have walked away from these people feeling manipulated and abused. As a result, I tend not to engage those people in conversation anymore. One time I felt so bad after an incident that I saw my pastor about it. He wanted to confront the person but I did not want him to fight my battles for me. The only way that I felt safe dealing with this person was to write a letter outlining the discussion that we had had and how I had felt during our conversation. I wrote and prayed and wrote some more, and when I felt no more anger and that I could forgive, I wrote another one in love. I then took it to the pastor to check if it was an assertive rather than judgemental letter then mailed it to the brother. This dear brother did not realise how he came across to people and promptly sent me an apology. I was, however, quite prepared to receive a letter from this brother out lining the error of my ways or no letter at all. It did not really matter, as I wrote the letter for me. I needed closure on this matter and while I held feelings of anger and resentment towards this person I would not be able to forgive (I wrote this in my letter too). I am not suggesting that everyone start writing letters to each other, it is something that worked for me. As a result, I don’t feel as powerless as I used to. The most important things that I discovered out of all of this is to: Pray heaps; do it in love, rather than to get back at them; deal with my anger or whatever feelings I have before I write the final draft; Do it for yourself, not the other person, and the only person I can change is myself. Maybe a few sermons preached on the effects of perfectionism, score keeping, manipulation, and scripture abuse might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: Maybe a few sermons preached on the effects of perfectionism, score keeping, manipulation, and scripture abuse might help. Nice post bp.. Now..what passage/s of scripture would you think the pastor could refer to in the sermons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: Now..what passage/s of scripture would you think the pastor could refer to in the sermons? Well the "log in your eye" is one of many. However, these type of sermons seem to have been done to death in one way or another. I was more thinking of how these types of behaviour affect people on a more personal level. Perhaps it could be included in a Sabbath School lesson where people can discuss and relate how these type of people and their behaviours affect them personally. What they did about it, what they would like to be able to do about it, their fears, frustrations etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Did the speaker mention why he/she took the time to say that? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> It was part of the opening welcome, he shared an experience he had this week, with being accused. Good thoughts Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I was at the Creekside Community Church today. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Stan, Just curious...did the speaker give a NFDMTTS? or even a topical sermon?? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I have to say, if he did, it was because he was responding to a higher power than you or I. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: What is the best way to deal with those gifted people who feel called to be the "accuser of the brethern", and are always attacking the Pastor, teacher etc. I would recommend the book "The wounded Minister" By Guy Greenfield PHD Some chapter titles 1. Clergy killers on the loose 2. Pathological antagonists in the church 3. When evil invades the church 4. THe ministers greatest enemy. Passive Lay Leaders 5. The Dangers of autonomous Church Polity 6. Wreaking a ministers life and Career 7. Collateral Damage to Ministers 8. Collateral Damage to the Church. And much more. This is a great book to read on this subject and I would highly recommend it. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801063698/002-6696818-1400849?v=glance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 27, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: Stan, Just curious...did the speaker give a NFDMTTS? or even a topical sermon?? Quote: I have to say, if he did, it was because he was responding to a higher power than you or I. Go Stan! Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted February 27, 2005 Administrators Share Posted February 27, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Stan, Just curious...did the speaker give a NFDMTTS? or even a topical sermon?? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I have to say, if he did, it was because he was responding to a higher power than you or I. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Go Stan! <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Amen! Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted February 27, 2005 Administrators Share Posted February 27, 2005 Send the person or person's a "Thinking Of You" card. Inside you simply write John 8:7 While this personality type is often so legalistic that they probably won't get it today, you've planted a seed and perhaps at sometime in the future it will soak in...they might actually get it Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Quote: Quote: Quote: I was at the Creekside Community Church today. Stan, Just curious...did the speaker give a NFDMTTS? or even a topical sermon?? I have to say, if he did, it was because he was responding to a higher power than you or I. Aw Stan...come on.... your reply sounds as if you have been hanging around churchian SDA's too long. Detail: 1. You avoided a specific direct answer. 2. You concluded that the pastor was taking cues, for his sermon, from someone outside himself. 3. The higer power is ambiguous...it is either depersonalizing God or could mean the pastor's supervisors... or even mean the idea came from the ones who regulate quality control of Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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