If I could change one thing about our church.

[olger]

If I could change one thing, it would be to change the fact that so many people born in this church dislike it. If we could change that, we would eliminate most of the disagreements that we have.

Do you realize that the arguments that we have in this church are not just between two competing ideologies. They're usually between people who love the Adventist Movement and people who don't. You might even go further and say it's not just people who don't love the church. It's people who have an active dislike for it. You can see it in this forum, you can see it in Spectrum magazine. There's no love for anybody or anything. On our side we have a professed and deep love for the Advent Movement as founded and our families and us want everybody to feel the same way. We want everybody to look at the Advent Movement as the greatest body on earth that is preparing for Jesus to come.

The church is being criticised by a minority of people who have an active, ongoing, and increasing dislike for it. And they have a pure dislike for the people who do like it and who love it, not just a disagreement. They have an active unease for those of you who do love the Advent Movement. Why do they do this? I have struggled with this question over the last 15 years. As individuals we always try to figure out the motivations for those who disagree with us. Sometimes you figure the motivation is not important because you gotta deal with the reality. But there are those who hate the church. They have an active, vitriolic anger against it. They are rarely happy.

So I'm just thinking, if I could just wave a magic wand, change one thing, it would be that everybody born into the Advent Movement would love it. Do you realize how much that would change things? Overnight.

g

[Guest]

DITTO!!!

I was born in it, and I love the Advent movement. But then, I'm a prodigal.

[olger]

Welcome back mein Bruder.

Ps. I love your honesty.

[abelisle]

It seems that what you're saying is that if you criticize the church you don't love it?

I was born an Adventist. I love the church and criticize it because I want to see it become more meaningful for our postmodern society here in the NAD. I criticize it because I love the fact that we have all the truth that we have but we don't know how to or don't effectively present it to the secular society we live in.

I criticize the church because I love my fellow brothers and sisters and want them to show the world that we love them also, not just love them because we want them to become Adventists.

I criticize my church when they strive to elevate the writings of EGW to the level of the Bible.

I criticize my church because I love the fact that Jesus died for me and I don't deserve it and we hear more about prophecy than we hear about his atonement on the cross.

I love the health reform message and criticize my pastors for not only not preaching about it but not following it.

I love the fact that the Adventist theological mindset encourages thinking and I criticize my members who want everyone to think the same way.

Finally I love the Advent movement with its tremendous potential to change lives and criticize any attempts to move it backward and create a church of exclusivisity.

Yes olger, I agree with you that we should love the Advent movement and in so doing tolerate the voices of criticism who seek to enhance the church's mission to save souls.

Alex (criticism can be a good thing)

[Guest]

I love the church and criticize it because I want to see it become more meaningful for our postmodern society here in the NAD.

I'm sorry, that's about as far as I got. Anytime somebody starts talking about the need to appeal to post modern society, my eyes glaze over. If the truth isn't appealing to someone, then all the worldly window dressing in the world won't help.

I did see something about there being more about prophecy, than about the love of Jesus, which isn't even true. The church as a whole stopped talking about prophecy a long time ago. For years now I've heard nothing but little soft stepping sermons designed not to step on anybody's toes. Sermons that hit on everything generally, and nothing specifically.

Most of the people I talk to are looking for more meat, and less milk. And the only way they can get it is by searching for it themselves, because it sure isn't coming from the pulpit anymore, in most cases. But that's no big surprise. We were told it would get like this.

[John317]

... I love the health reform message and criticize my pastors for not only not preaching about it but not following it.

What is the health reform message and how is it related to the gospel and the Three Angels Messages?

Quote:

I love the fact that the Adventist theological mindset encourages thinking and I criticize my members who want everyone to think the same way.

What do you believe all Seventh-day Adventists should agree on? What would you like the world to know about the Adventist message?

[Dr. Shane]

I was born in it, and I love the Advent movement. But then, I'm a prodigal.

Same here.

If I could change one thing it would be... to put more emphasis on the health of the family unit. Maybe we could cut the number of pastors down by 1/3 and replace them with family counselors.

[lazarus]

They're usually between people who love the Adventist Movement and people who don't. You might even go further and say it's not just people who don't love the church. It's people who have an active dislike for it. You can see it in this forum, you can see it in Spectrum magazine. There's no love for anybody or anything. On our side we have a professed and deep love for the Advent Movement as founded and our families and us want everybody to feel the same way.

I would love to change this "them and us" mentality in the church. We have a Pharisee/Sadducee thing going on. Each side believes that they were the true believers but in fact when Jesus came neither side knew him and united to kill him. We so busy fighting about "issues" that the lost that Jesus came to save stay lost.

I have people in my church who are liberal and those who are conservative. One thing that I have had no cause to question is their love for the church. They are passionate about being SDA's that's why they serve and give so generously.

[aldona]

If folks truly dislike the church, they will leave.

If they are staying, even though they are complaining about its faults, surely that must be a sign that there is still some love there.

A true friend is not always one that praises your every move and refrains from criticizing. Sometimes a true friend is one who is prepared to say what you did wrong and why it could have been done better another way.

OOps...I forgot...when conservatives criticize something they do not agree with about the church, they are "sighing and crying about the abominations" and it is further proof that they are righteous.

When us liberals do it, we are just malcontents who hate the church, and we would be better off leaving.

AJ

[LifeHiscost]

Alex (criticism can be a good thing)

Time spent in criticism is necessarily time not spent in using our efforts to encourage and/or help someone in need.

"My friends, if someone is caught in any kind of wrongdoing, those of you who are spiritual should set him right; but you must do it in a gentle way. And keep an eye on yourselves, so that you will not be tempted, too. Help carry one another's burdens, and in this way you will obey the law of Christ. If you think you are something when you really are nothing, you are only deceiving yourself. You should each judge your own conduct. If it is good, then you can be proud of what you yourself have done, without having to compare it with what someone else has done." Galatians 6:1-4 GNT

Joy!!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

I love the church and criticize it because I want to see it become more meaningful for our postmodern society here in the NAD.

I'm sorry, that's about as far as I got. Anytime somebody starts talking about the need to appeal to post modern society, my eyes glaze over. If the truth isn't appealing to someone, then all the worldly window dressing in the world won't help.

I did see something about there being more about prophecy, than about the love of Jesus, which isn't even true. The church as a whole stopped talking about prophecy a long time ago. For years now I've heard nothing but little soft stepping sermons designed not to step on anybody's toes. Sermons that hit on everything generally, and nothing specifically.

Most of the people I talk to are looking for more meat, and less milk. And the only way they can get it is by searching for it themselves, because it sure isn't coming from the pulpit anymore, in most cases. But that's no big surprise. We were told it would get like this.

I don't want to waste space on this post so I included everything you said, Richard. Keep the faith, brother. Were you the one who suggested Walter Veith (sp) as a person to which one could benefit by listening to?

[LifeHiscost]

What is the health reform message and how is it related to the gospel and the Three Angels Messages?

"So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."1 Corinthians 10:31 NLT

"Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers."

3 John 1:2 NKJV

Joy!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger,

When you disagree with your wife, do you dislike her and stop loving her?

The crux of the problem as I see it is that you are attempting that which is not within you ability or right to do - judge another's motives. A truth that needs to be understood is that when people do that, the "motive" they see in another is most often much closer to what is in their own heart.

Read carefully what Alex, Laz and Aldona said. They nailed it.

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm sorry, that's about as far as I got. Anytime somebody starts talking about the need to appeal to post modern society, my eyes glaze over. If the truth isn't appealing to someone, then all the worldly window dressing in the world won't help.

If I understand what you are saying is that you jump to a conclusion at the first hint of something you do not like or disagree with and write off that person's perspective. But more significantly it sounds like you write off those hard to reach or relate to as not being worth bothering with, or worse, not worth the effort to try to save.

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I did see something about there being more about prophecy, than about the love of Jesus, which isn't even true. The church as a whole stopped talking about prophecy a long time ago. For years now I've heard nothing but little soft stepping sermons designed not to step on anybody's toes. Sermons that hit on everything generally, and nothing specifically.

Most of the people I talk to are looking for more meat, and less milk. And the only way they can get it is by searching for it themselves, because it sure isn't coming from the pulpit anymore, in most cases. But that's no big surprise. We were told it would get like this.

This sounds an awful lot like criticism of the church. SO have you joined the ranks of the church haters that Ger has determined should just leave to make this a better place?

[Gerr]

By request I am preaching on the parable of the wheat and the tares this coming Sabbath.

[phkrause]

If folks truly dislike the church, they will leave.

If they are staying, even though they are complaining about its faults, surely that must be a sign that there is still some love there.

A true friend is not always one that praises your every move and refrains from criticizing. Sometimes a true friend is one who is prepared to say what you did wrong and why it could have been done better another way.

OOps...I forgot...when conservatives criticize something they do not agree with about the church, they are "sighing and crying about the abominations" and it is further proof that they are righteous.

When us liberals do it, we are just malcontents who hate the church, and we would be better off leaving.

AJ

[GoLions]

Seems like we need to get our act together. All this talk is getting us no where. From what I understand we are missing the one thing that WILL bring us together. That one thing is not the Holy Spirit, although I wish it was. It's not Jesus, once again I wish that it was. The one thing that does bring us together is persecution. Sad but true. I pray that I am found faithful when it comes.

[Gerr]

Ger,

When you disagree with your wife, do you dislike her and stop loving her?

But if more energy is spent disagreeing with her and criticizing her than building her up, what does that say about your love? I am not saying that that is what every critic is doing. We would be in grave danger if all we have in the church are "yes" men & women. But I know some people whose only contribution to the church seems to be just to disagree and criticize her.

[John317]

...when conservatives criticize something they do not agree with about the church, they are "sighing and crying about the abominations" and it is further proof that they are righteous.

When us liberals do it, we are just malcontents who hate the church, and we would be better off leaving.

I think it's damaging to the church to talk about everyone as if they are in a catagory for one side or the other to either ignore or dislike, etc.

When we sigh and cry about the abominations, we need to make sure it is because of sin in the church and not because the church condemns sin. It seems to me that some people sigh and cry because sin is condemned and not accepted.

[olger]

Tis true.

[olger]

Ger,

When you disagree with your wife, do you dislike her and stop loving her?

The crux of the problem as I see it is that you are attempting that which is not within you ability or right to do - judge another's motives. A truth that needs to be understood is that when people do that, the "motive" they see in another is most often much closer to what is in their own heart.

Read carefully what Alex, Laz and Aldona said. They nailed it.

"O ye generation of Gripers".

`oG

[Bravus]

A thought. Change starts with oneself. Those seeking change in the church would be best served by seeking ways in which they themselves can change to make the church better, rather than searching out ways for others to change. It's just pragmatic. And it applies equally to all 'sides'.

[olger]

God is in the business of changing lives. I agree!

oG

[Neil D]

God is in the business of changing lives. I agree!

oG

Whose life, Olger? Whose life?....

If you say "Everyone's!" , then that would be the wrong answer....The correct answer is "Mine.".....

Any answer other than that, is a serious breach of relationship.....

[olger]

You use more words than a gurl.