'not really a Christian'

[fccool]

Fair enough...

If you are unwilling to share your bias, then I cannot see how I can communicate with you.

Thus demonstrating that you don't really care about my thoughts... you are only care about addressing my "bias". It's ok though, at least you don't resort to trenchant labels to dismiss what I'm trying to say (well sort of)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The reason he and I aren't responding is because you use spurious reasoning and you don't appear to comprehend the answers we give.

You just announce that something is logical and true and provide absolutely no evidence for your claims. I'm not the only one saying this.

Bravus to his credit gave up on trying to explain this to you a while ago. I have to admit that I don't know how to communicate with you.

Bravus has been responding.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Basically this is what I see religion trying to do. It seems the human race finds it profitable to gather together and assert a particular description of god. What is so bizarre is that humans feel the need to kill over this illusion of knowledge. Are we so afraid that we can't withstand even the simplest awareness of our limitations?

I hope we evolve past this need to have no mystery or whatever drives us to kill over stuff we make up in our own minds.

Where we get in trouble is by essentially following authoritarians, be it secular or religious ones. That's where we choose to abnegate our personal preferences for the sake of the dubious "greater societal good".

You've made a point before that you don't find much secular examples of authoritarianism, and forgive me for being caught up in other subject, and sort of ignoring this idea, which perhaps historically can be justified on account of "Holy" Roman Empire, the Divine Blood idea, and etc.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

As I have gotten together with groups of like minded atheists and agnostics there is a vibrancy, a great sense of humor, and tremendous creativity. For the first time in my life I felt like I was at home.

That's exactly how I felt when I became a witch. Incidentally, the chairman of the Psychology Dept at the state university here was the Wiccan high priestess for the State.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended. That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither has all those signs been fulfilled.

[LifeHiscost]

But note, only those genuinely trying to find truth would receive the prophecies, others would do anything to deny them validity.

Excellent observation, adding corroboration to what the Scripture reveals.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

Blessings!

[fccool]

Quote:

Apply the same principle to the spreading of the gospel to these last days and there is no doubt we are in the last doubling of the gospel spread, in which every person in all the world will have had the opportunity to accept or, God forbid, to reject the offer of God's love and forgiveness.

I don't think you quite understand the reality of population statistics when you are saying this. Over the past century and a half, the Adventist's experienced enormous growth, yet it still constitutes about 0.6% of all Christians on earth, which constitute 33% of earth's population, most of which is in Europe and Americas. The rest of the world is predominantly non-Christian.

Every time I hear that 3ABN is a fulfillment of 3 angels prophecy, makes me really wonder how well we understand TV outreach numbers. 3ABN reaches potentially (not in reality) 5 million viewers. That's really about .2% of world's population. So, every time I hear that 3ABN is a fulfillment of 3 angels prophecy, it really bothers me, considering that it potentially reaches .2% of the world.

Another obvious problem, if you consider the idea of Gospel being protestant Gospel... is that nearly 70% of Christians worldwide are not protestant. These are either Orthodox or Catholic. So, I'm not quite sure where these fit in our theology of spreading the Gospel, when most of the Christian proselytizing is done by the "Whore of Babylon".

With that being said, I don't really believe that the prophecy was literal in that regard, neither I believe that Angels of revelations would refer to a group of people. It never does anywhere in the Bible, yet we self-ascribe this job to ourselves while doing a very poor job of spreading the Gospel.

[LifeHiscost]

With that being said, I don't really believe that the prophecy was literal in that regard, neither I believe that Angels of revelations would refer to a group of people. It never does anywhere in the Bible, yet we self-ascribe this job to ourselves while doing a very poor job of spreading the Gospel.

There is no doubt the spreading of the gospel by all of the North Americans leaves much to be desired. While it appears you believe Adventists are expecting someone from the Adventist church to knock on every single door worldwide, with the message of the gospel, I happen to believe the body of Christ is more than just the Adventist denomination and I also believe there are multitudes that have access of one sort or another to the gospel that we will never be aware of until we enter into our heavenly home. Not to mention the fact that Adventist religious satellite TV is now covering close to 80% of the worlds surface, of which many of those streams of gospel light are numerous Adventist outlets, not the least of which 3ABN is one among many.

It is not the Adventists who will finish the work, though there may be many Adventists who refute that statement, but I have it on good authority, Who will finish the work. Adventists just have the supreme privilege, along with any one willing to accept the call according to the Word, to join in the effort as part of the body of Christ.

"And Isaiah calls out (solemnly cries aloud) over Israel: Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant (a small part of them) will be saved from perdition, condemnation, judgment]!

For the Lord will execute His sentence upon the earth [He will conclude and close His account with men completely and without delay], rigorously cutting it short in His justice.

It is as Isaiah predicted, If the Lord of hosts had not left us a seed [from which to propagate descendants], we [israel] would have fared like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah." Romans 9:27-29 AMP parenthesis brackets theirs' LHC

However I do believe we also have to be aware of the fact there are many false prophets who align themselves with false doctrines that are pleasing to the ears and deny the necessity of self sacrifice.

"Gather together to Me My saints [those who have found grace in My sight], those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice." Psalms 50:5 AMP brackets their's LHC

Blessings!

[phkrause]

Not sure where you got those numbers from fccool, and I'm not here to argue them. But from what I've read is, that all the TV and radio stations, and all of the outreach programs of all the different denominations has reached over 90% of the world. The only places that have not been reached with gospel are those places that are so remote that,from what I understand, people can't even walk in there without having to cut through thick brush, etc. As also from what I've heard is that the Christian population outside of NA is growing more rapidly than NA. Now if we are saying that the gospel being sent out all over the earth has to change everyone to being a christian, I'm not sure I believe that. It only has to be sent to all the earth so that everyone can at least hear it and decide for themselves, that's what I have always understood. So in that respect it doesn't matter that only .2% have excepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, that only tells me that 99.8% have rejected Jesus, and that is sad, is it not?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But note, only those genuinely trying to find truth would receive the prophecies, others would do anything to deny them validity.

Excellent observation, adding corroboration to what the Scripture reveals.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

Blessings!

I have seen this so many times, a point that Cardw veered away from.

His argument was basically that the prophecies of the past were failed and then cited examples.

Now what he did not realise, is by implication he has agreed that those prophecies were written before the time.

They would have to be, to fail.

Now what is interesting, is if he actually points out what he thinks are failed prophecies in Isaiah for instance, he now has to condone the prophecies that were met in Isaiah.

As the ones he uses to condemn the bible (in his links), are also side by side with those that are fulfilled, he has by implication given them historic credence.

In other words, he cannot use the argument that those prophecies were wrong, whilst these that were correct were written after the event...

A double argument that contradicts itself...

"If it fails, it is failed prophecy".

"If it succeeds, it was written after the fact".

If a "failed" prophecy and a "proven" prophecy are in the same book, to discredit the failed one as a failure means you have to accept the proven one as a success...

I realise of course that to deny the gospel is illogical anyway, but this type of contradiction is very common.

Lies are never logical...

[Twilight]

Quote:

Apply the same principle to the spreading of the gospel to these last days and there is no doubt we are in the last doubling of the gospel spread, in which every person in all the world will have had the opportunity to accept or, God forbid, to reject the offer of God's love and forgiveness.

I don't think you quite understand the reality of population statistics when you are saying this. Over the past century and a half, the Adventist's experienced enormous growth, yet it still constitutes about 0.6% of all Christians on earth, which constitute 33% of earth's population, most of which is in Europe and Americas. The rest of the world is predominantly non-Christian.

Every time I hear that 3ABN is a fulfillment of 3 angels prophecy, makes me really wonder how well we understand TV outreach numbers. 3ABN reaches potentially (not in reality) 5 million viewers. That's really about .2% of world's population. So, every time I hear that 3ABN is a fulfillment of 3 angels prophecy, it really bothers me, considering that it potentially reaches .2% of the world.

Another obvious problem, if you consider the idea of Gospel being protestant Gospel... is that nearly 70% of Christians worldwide are not protestant. These are either Orthodox or Catholic. So, I'm not quite sure where these fit in our theology of spreading the Gospel, when most of the Christian proselytizing is done by the "Whore of Babylon".

With that being said, I don't really believe that the prophecy was literal in that regard, neither I believe that Angels of revelations would refer to a group of people. It never does anywhere in the Bible, yet we self-ascribe this job to ourselves while doing a very poor job of spreading the Gospel.

But you don't actually beleive in prophecy...

You claim it is all contrived...

Is that not correct?

[Bravus]

Is the rate of growth of the number of people who have heard the gospel (in some reasonable form, since it probably needs to be more than just a sentence) growing faster than the number of actual people? Population has gone from 1 billion to 7 billion in just the last century. No particular axe to grind, but in particular I suspect the 'explosion' in SDA membership in the developing world is not keeping pace with the population explosion, meaning the actual proportion is going DOWN.

[phkrause]

Is the rate of growth of the number of people who have heard the gospel (in some reasonable form, since it probably needs to be more than just a sentence) growing faster than the number of actual people? Population has gone from 1 billion to 7 billion in just the last century. No particular axe to grind, but in particular I suspect the 'explosion' in SDA membership in the developing world is not keeping pace with the population explosion, meaning the actual proportion is going DOWN.

I agree with your post that that is very likely, but I believe that that doesn't change the fact that they, whoever they might be, are still hearing the message in one form or another, be in TV, radio, magazines, layworkers, etc.

[Bravus]

These data suggest the reverse though: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/Stats/InterestingFacts2007.PDF

[phkrause]

These data suggest the reverse though: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/Stats/InterestingFacts2007.PDF

Again I don't think that that negates the fact that the gospel is still going to all the world. And also, at least to me, doesn't mean that all will become SDA. Unless people are saying that if the gospel doesn't make SDAs out of them than the gospel isn't really doing its job? I don't buy that at all.

[fccool]

But you don't actually beleive in prophecy...

You claim it is all contrived...

Is that not correct?

Give me a single statement of the sort by me? I believe that I accept it based on faith and not based on "facts", like you claim it is.

Hence pointing out another problem with your mentality that automatically questions the faith of those who ask questions, and point out certain logical fallacies of the "I believe in facts" argument.

[fccool]

Quote:

Not sure where you got those numbers from fccool, and I'm not here to argue them. But from what I've read is, that all the TV and radio stations, and all of the outreach programs of all the different denominations has reached over 90% of the world.

PK, 70% of all of the "other denominations" in the world is Catholic. To say that it reached 90% of the world by mere saying that there are some sort of missionaries in 90% of the world is rather stretching the reality.

To assert that you'd have to

1) Give up the idea that 3 Angels message is spread solely by Adventists, and include Catholic church as a part of those who spread the message, as well as Mormons, JWs, and other sects who spread the Gospel.

2) Actually believe that the missionaries in these countries establish effective religious outreach in a way that would cover 90% of all of the country they reaching out to.

3) By 3ABN's own projection, their channel's reach is to POTENTIAL 5 million people. That's if every 5 million people who tune into that satellite dish would pause and watch 3ABN for enough time to hear the Gospel in a form which is understood. I work in TV advertising industry, and my job depends on statistical reach. I can tell you that this assumption is rather reaching, and the actual stats are much lower. With radio it does not get much better because of the problematic "preaching to the choir" phenomenon. The Christian stations around the world target Christian audiences, and it's unfortunate.

If we were really serious about spreading the gospel and reaching large amount of people through TV and radio, then why not spend some money and purchase the air time on those TV stations that actually being reached and watched by the people worldwide?

Until that kind of attitude becomes a reality, I doubt we are going to have any kind of impact, because our message is rather self-serving... with interest emphatically targeted towards filling the pews rather than getting the message out.

So, projecting that 90% of the people worldwide heard the Gospel... how about walking over to a random stranger on the street and see if they understand what Christianity teaches?

I told my parents that I'm Adventist, and they've never heard of them. There're plenty Catholics, Baptists, and Pentecostals, yet by our qualification of it... do they preach "The Gospel", or rather the idea of it?

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

These data suggest the reverse though: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/Stats/InterestingFacts2007.PDF

Again I don't think that that negates the fact that the gospel is still going to all the world. And also, at least to me, doesn't mean that all will become SDA. Unless people are saying that if the gospel doesn't make SDAs out of them than the gospel isn't really doing its job? I don't buy that at all.

Would you be ok with presentation of the Gospel in the following order?

- Christ died for you, people wrote the Bible, which was corrupted, but Joseph Smith was given additional word.

- Christ died for your sins, and passed on the power to forgive them to a group of men wearing black. So, as long as you come over and confess your sins to those people and recite 20 rosaries... you will be saved.

- Christ died for your sins, and gives you the gift of tongues as evidence of His spirit. Unless you demonstrate this gift, there's no evidence of Christ in you.

Can the above be classified as Gospel doing its work?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But you don't actually beleive in prophecy...

You claim it is all contrived...

Is that not correct?

Give me a single statement of the sort by me? I believe that I accept it based on faith and not based on "facts", like you claim it is.

Hence pointing out another problem with your mentality that automatically questions the faith of those who ask questions, and point out certain logical fallacies of the "I believe in facts" argument.

Did you not make the claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies because He contrived to.

If you did not make that point, I will withdras my comment and apologise.

Mark :-)

[fccool]

D

Quote:

id you not make the claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies because He contrived to.

If you did not make that point, I will withdras my comment and apologise.

Mark :-)

I've made the case for such possibility. Making a case for possibility does not negate the argument. I simply presented the alternative view of history that perhaps missed your mind when you claim that there's no other possibility exists that could be feasible, and that prophetic writings of the Bible prove with certainty the validity of Christian claims.

We choose to believe in these claims for different reasons. You choose to believe because you think that you've examined the evidence and it had proven itself correct. I don't make such assumption. I believe the claims because I see that reality in people who directly changed my life fore the best without beating these believes into my psyche as "the only possible way".

So, no need to apologize really . I'm not offended by anything that you say, neither I have any delusions of changing your mind on the subject. I'm simply trying to get what you claim to offer... an irrefutable evidence of God's existence and validity of Christian faith.

If you can't present such irrefutable evidence, then perhaps you should be more humble about your faith, and making certain claims to people who have the valid reasons to question your logic.

The fact of the matter is how you approach the faith and evidence. You present no solid evidence rather than a promise and the record of people who strongly believe in certain ontology... and you present it as irrefutable truth.

Why don't you believe Cathy O'Brien's claims about Bush sr. ? Cathy writes in "Trance Formation Of America" of how George Bush was sitting in front of her in his office in Washington DC when, he opened a book at a page depicting lizard-like aliens from a far off, deep space place. Bush then claimed to be an 'alien' himself and appeared, before her eyes, to transform 'like a chameleon' into a reptile.

I mean, she was the real person, and Bush is the real person, and Washington DC is the real place. Why not believe her extraordinary claims like thousands, and perhaps millions of David Icke followers that do?

I can tell you why... you don't believe her claims for the same reason someone like Richard does not believe in Biblical account... lack of evidence for the extraordinary claims, other than what we would consider to be a heresay legally. Just to refresh your memory on what it its:

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

So, no need for your apologies. Just approach what you know and how you know it in humility rather than impudence.

[Bravus]

Sorry, pk, I was saying those stats contradict *my* guess: according to them, at least, SDAism is growing faster than world population. And you're correct, of course, that it's much more than just SDAs.

[Bravus]

I hesitate to add this, since I'm already being cast in the role of heretic, but of course it's not just thr gospel that everyone knows now, it's everything. Everyone on earth knows the name of Michael Jackson...

[fccool]

I hesitate to add this, since I'm already being cast in the role of heretic, but of course it's not just thr gospel that everyone knows now, it's everything. Everyone on earth knows the name of Michael Jackson...

Explain ... ?

[cardw]

I have seen this so many times, a point that Cardw veered away from.

His argument was basically that the prophecies of the past were failed and then cited examples.

Now what he did not realise, is by implication he has agreed that those prophecies were written before the time.

[aldona]

Quote:

Would you be ok with presentation of the Gospel in the following order?

- Christ died for you, people wrote the Bible, which was corrupted, but Joseph Smith was given additional word.

- Christ died for your sins, and passed on the power to forgive them to a group of men wearing black. So, as long as you come over and confess your sins to those people and recite 20 rosaries... you will be saved.

- Christ died for your sins, and gives you the gift of tongues as evidence of His spirit. Unless you demonstrate this gift, there's no evidence of Christ in you.

Can the above be classified as Gospel doing its work?

Just as much as:

"Christ died for your sins, and now you also have to accept a 19th century prophetess and place her words on an equal level of inspiration as the Bible."

AJ