'not really a Christian'

[GoLions]

[quote name='cardw

Well' date=' none of these have happened. I have no investment in my belief system standing up. Like I said, I'm interested in what is true based on evidence. If any of these happened I would have to consider the implications. Just like in the wizard of oz, all the smoke, mirrors, and scary beings don't preclude the possibility of deception. I see a lot of Christians telling me to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. [/quote']

I am also interested in what is true based on evidence.

cardw wrote:

That's because Christianity doesn't stand up in the free discussion of ideas based on evidence. And historically it has been the Bible believing Christians who have been the most violent. end of quote.

It really does stand up in 'free' discussion, but you just throw out my starting point. "My" position really does not change, whereas "yours" changes with every new idea that comes down the tube (based on so called eveidence).

I really have to take exception to the statement of "Bible believing christians being the most violent in history". Like the title of this topic states, those are not really Christians, but called themselves such.

cardw wrote:

This is not a fair comparison because I can observe the effects of my brakes not working and I can work out that if these aren't serviced I might come to harm. Now I can find no evidence what so ever for the claims of terrible consequences by Adventists for not keeping the Sabbath or having Jesus as my Savior. All of these terrible consequences take place either in an unlikely future or in an imaginary place that I can't observe. The so called dangers are fears created by stories with no connection to reality.

In fact I have observed the opposite. My life is considerably better without Jesus as my Savior and all the baggage that comes with that world view. That doesn't mean that having Jesus in your life doesn't work for some people, but that alone doesn't mean that god exists or the Bible is true or that Christianity is the only way. All of these don't stand up to evidence. end of cardw quote.

Lets take a quick look at what your evidence might suggest. Survival of the fittest, is the way to go. If you have to put your brother down so that you can advance, so be it. If you are somewhat handicaped, its better to put you down, no place for useless eaters you know. The rich get richer, the poor poorer. If it feels good do it. Look out for #1.

Yup Rich, good plan. Lets see how all that works out for you. No violence there (sarcasm).

Looks like I dont know how to use that quote thingy.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That's because Christianity doesn't stand up in the free discussion of ideas based on evidence. And historically it has been the Bible believing Christians who have been the most violent.

It really does stand up in 'free' discussion, but you just throw out my starting point.

[Bravus]

An argument based on sarcasm and a *fundamental* misunderstanding of evolutionary theory (which after all explains the existence of beautiful butterflies and tropical fish as well as tigers and sharks) is no argument at all.

Having said that, 'Christians as most murderous ever' is kind of a tenuous claim, Rich, and not necessary to the points you're making.

So leave that on the side of your plate, GoLions, along with the sarcasm and dodgy 'evolutionary morality' arguments, and have a go at putting together your *best* case for Christianity.

[Bravus]

My apologies - I know I can sometimes come across as much more forceful in writing than I intend. Face to face I'm a very quiet, tentative, listening sorta guy, but I've been told that I don't always present that way in writing.

The above was meant to be a gentle, take-it-or-leave-it suggestion as to a possible productive direction forward for the discussion, not any sort of command!

[cardw]

Having said that, 'Christians as most murderous ever' is kind of a tenuous claim, Rich, and not necessary to the points you're making.

I think I stated that Christian theocracy was ONE of the most violent. Some estimates are as high as 150,000,000 people killed in the name of Christianity.

Now whether this was because they were Christians or a theocracy or something else I can't determine for sure. What grabs my attention is that there are Christian organizations today that openly state that their mission is to create theocracies out of secular governments.

And what is particularly predictable is that one of the first conflicts is whether or not to have a death penalty for being homosexual. I'm referring to the thrust of Christian groups in Uganda pushing for the criminalization of homosexuality and the support by Focus on the Family and its Family Life organization. Even though these are Christian right groups, they are significant enough to represent the motivation to return of the use of violence by Christianity.

And I don't think the Bible condemns violence enough to halt the flow of these ideas among Christianity as a whole. I think Christianity and the Bible need to be questioned and required to present a rational and an ethical case for their validity in the world of modern ideas.

I think religion as a whole needs to be replaced slowly with ideas that are more accountable to results.

[LifeHiscost]

We are in the same boat. You are making a guess with limited faculties.

Your assumption that we're in the same boat is misplaced. I have the advantage of being in an ark, to draw from what you believe to be a myth.

As to the same limiting faculties, I concur. That is why I have placed my trust in the One Who holds the universe together.

It is written that some will not believe though one were to be raised from the dead. Therefor I would like to place my trust in a promise from the One Who was raised, One in which you believe to be myth and fable.

I would draw from past experience but believe by your past posts, my experiences would be seen as only coincidences. Therefor I am going to give you an example from the future, based on the Word, so that you may see that Jesus' promises are as good as done when He gives them, when we meet the conditions He prescribes.

Here are the promises I am claiming from Him.

"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Matthew 6:33 NKJV

"Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test!" Malachi 3:10 NLT

“Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me!“But you ask, ‘What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?’“You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me."Malachi 3:8 NLT

Now since I've tithed since many years ago, I'm not going to use the results that have occurred as a result of that lifestyle, for an example. However I've been led to believe that the investment desired of me needs to be a new thing, something that will lead to new developments, based on the promise of the Word when trusted to do as God asks, "and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

The investment is significant, enough to mean sacrifice. If He wishes the returns to be useful in helping you establish your faith, you will be among the first to "see" He always keeps His promises, and often while we're still on this earth.

I'll keep you posted by percentage what the results are He is willing to bring to pass.

"Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”" John 20:29 NKJV

"He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead." Luke 16:31 AMP

God has given us the freedom to choose whom we will serve.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

...have a go at putting together your *best* case for Christianity.

Studying the life of Jesus is the best evidence leading the Christian to discipleship. It is a fact that 65%+ of North American Christians have never read the New Testament completely through one time. Using the principle that to read the instruction booklet through, to successfully learn how to function in one's chosen profession, it is no surprise that professed Christians err from the Way.

OTOH, the Jews read the Word, yet still were responsible for taking the life of the Lord with Whom they should have been acquainted. All the more reason to be aware, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who are willing to set their ego aside and accept they're not really smart or good enough to figure out the Creator on their own.

"...but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called." 1 Corinthians 1:24-26 NKJV

Regards!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

We are in the same boat. You are making a guess with limited faculties.

Your assumption that we're in the same boat is misplaced. I have the advantage of being in an ark, to draw from what you believe to be a myth.

As to the same limiting faculties, I concur. That is why I have placed my trust in the One Who holds the universe together.

[LifeHiscost]

First of all these conditions are pretty vague and second of all there is no guarantee that I am aware of since there is an almost complete lack of evidence for anything that is claimed in the Bible. And the evidence that we do have outside of the Bible, along with the Bible, has been interpolated.

"I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”"2 Peter 3:2-4 NLT

Regards!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

First of all these conditions are pretty vague and second of all there is no guarantee that I am aware of since there is an almost complete lack of evidence for anything that is claimed in the Bible. And the evidence that we do have outside of the Bible, along with the Bible, has been interpolated.

"I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”"2 Peter 3:2-4 NLT

This is typical of groups that can't answer their critics. They demonize them or create some situation in the future that can never be verified.

It is interesting that here it is generations after Jesus said he would come back and there is no second coming. There are certainly a host of false comings, including the very basis for the SDA church.

To me this is even more evidence that Christianity doesn't hold up within the realm of free discussion.

[Bravus]

The 'no evidence would convince you' argument wears a bit thin too, when those making it claim that no evidence would convince *them* to change their views. Those of us compelled to follow the evidence are deluged in it every day... but it's evidence that, if God exists at all, He does not fit the advertising. It's not a case of waiting around for the once-in-a-lifetime miracle, it's a case of seeing the world around us, day in and day out, as a cascade of evidence. If God was there and acting as advertised, it could not but show... but it doesn't, so either He's not there or He's not acting as advertised.

[John317]

It is interesting that here it is generations after Jesus said he would come back and there is no second coming. There are certainly a host of false comings, including the very basis for the SDA church.

To me this is even more evidence that Christianity doesn't hold up within the realm of free discussion.

This is not taking into account the fact that the Bible contains evidence that Jesus would not return for a very long time.

There's also evidence that shows the NT is right about what the end-times would be like.

At the time of Christ, there was a small group of uneducated men and women who apparently had absolutely no hope of ever seeing their message spread all over the world. Yet Jesus said that the gospel of the Kingdom would be proclaimed throughout the world. Also He told the story of a particular woman which He said would be heard throughout the world.

Is it? Yes. Today that story is told in hundreds of languages and in virtually every country, and the gospel is being preached in all the world as a witness to Christ.

Daniel 8 and 9 show that Christ wouldn't come back until at least the end of the 2, 300 years-- a period which ended in 1844. (That period can't be literal "days," because such a period wouldn't even take us to the time of Christ.) When you put this with the 1260 year prophecy-- ending in 1798, with the apparent demise of the Papacy-- it is obvious the Bible teaches that Christ couldn't have returned within a short time.

Also, don't forget that in Christ's parables, He said things that indicated He wouldn't return for a long time.

[John317]

The Bible itself shows that in comparison with the numbers of people who've lived, only a relatively small number will believe the gospel and be saved. The Apocalypse says that "all the world" will follow after the beast-power. Also, Jesus spoke of the wide road that goes to destruction and the narrow, less traveled one that goes to the kingdom.

Therefore no one should be surprised if they find that many people reject the Bible and the gospel.

Accepting Christ and being saved in God's kingom is not a matter of having all the correct information and of being wise as the world counts wisdom. It's a matter of love for truth and righteousness and a willingness to allow the Holy Spirit to lead day by day.

If people want to doubt the truth of the Bible and the existence of God, they will always be able to find reason to do it. God will never remove all reasons for doubt, because belief in God is not just a matter of human reason and logic but of the heart and the character. It's a choice. To remove all doubt would be to compel people to believe, and God won't ever do that. No one has a choice whether to believe 2 + 2= 4, because the evidence for it is overwhelming. Belief in God and in the Bible will never be that way-- not until the very end, after the second resurrection, but then it will be too late to change. People will already have made up their minds and their characters will be set forever.

Now is the day to choose. "Choose ye this day whom you will serve."

Jesus said, "If any man will obey my Father in heaven, he will know whether the doctrine is of God or not."

[Bravus]

But that's exactly the problem, and a problem that is never acknowledged. Many of us have tried for years. Done everything prescribed, believed everything, accepted everything. Have argued for faith and against its detractors. And yet, nothing. It's not a matter of insufficient or limited evidence, it's a matter of no evidence at all. Of promises made but never kept. Of claims presented but unfulfilled.

It comes back to the notion that opened this thread. Those of us who have been real Christians - as real as its possible to be - but whom God has let down are then called mockers and 'not real Christians' and accused of blindness and wilfulness and the targets of all kinds of abuse.

I could have added that I, personally, am still clinging desperately to 'God is real, but not as advertised - there is a lot of human interpolation into the view of God given in the Bible and the Church', rather than accepting the idea that God isn't there at all. But I can definitely understand where someone like cardw is coming from.

I've asked the question here before - who has seen a real, supernatural miracle such as is continuously claimed God can do. And *no-one* has been able to produce a single one that is clear and objective. Lots of matters of interpretation that naturalistic explanations explain fully as well.

If God did it, even once, it would be visible. Until then, claiming that he does just makes no sense. And the logical twist above - that he can't because that would get rid of the requirement for faith - also makes no sense. If that's true, then it's his will that a majority of all people die... and that's not what the Bible says. If he could prove his existence and let us live, and chooses not to, then 'not willing that any should perish' is a lie.

Rather, what I see are a whole mass of interlinked rationalisations for Christians to try to make the fact that miracles are claimed but never seen make sense. I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head around the pretzel logic any more.

If God exists, then he's not as advertised.

[cardw]

The 'no evidence would convince you' argument wears a bit thin too, when those making it claim that no evidence would convince *them* to change their views.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is interesting that here it is generations after Jesus said he would come back and there is no second coming. There are certainly a host of false comings, including the very basis for the SDA church.

To me this is even more evidence that Christianity doesn't hold up within the realm of free discussion.

At the time of Christ, there was a small group of uneducated men and women who apparently had absolutely no hope of ever seeing their message spread all over the world. Yet Jesus said that the gospel of the Kingdom would be proclaimed throughout the world. Also He told the story of a particular woman which He said would be heard throughout the world.

Is it? Yes. Today that story is told in hundreds of languages and in virtually every country, and the gospel is being preached in all the world as a witness to Christ.

Daniel 8 and 9 show that Christ wouldn't come back until at least the end of the 2, 300 years-- a period which ended in 1844. (That period can't be literal "days," because such a period wouldn't even take us to the time of Christ.) When you put this with the 1260 year prophecy-- ending in 1798, with the apparent demise of the Papacy-- it is obvious the Bible teaches that Christ couldn't have returned within a short time.

Also, don't forget that in Christ's parables, He said things that indicated He wouldn't return for a long time.

I know these dates and how to work them together to get the charts. They are contrived and evidence of nothing. Remember that the Millerites were flat WRONG. Basically the SDA church exists as an apologetic for that fact.

Now if something would have happened here on earth, instead of an invisible sanctuary above, it might be more credible. All I can say is how convenient that what really happened was in heaven. Why have this complicated prophecy at all unless something visible is going to happen on the earth?

Jesus coming was obviously a big draw, but it didn't happen and apparently god didn't seem all that interested in correcting their mistakes before everyone destroyed their credibility. And the big message that this god was really trying to say is the sanctuary in heaven was being cleaned.

Really now...

[bonnie]

I've asked the question here before - who has seen a real, supernatural miracle such as is continuously claimed God can do. And *no-one* has been able to produce a single one that is clear and objective. Lots of matters of interpretation that naturalistic explanations explain fully as well.

If God did it, even once, it would be visible. Until then, claiming that he does just makes no sense. And the logical twist above - that he can't because that would get rid of the requirement for faith - also makes no sense. If that's true, then it's his will that a majority of all people die... and that's not what the Bible says. If he could prove his existence and let us live, and chooses not to, then 'not willing that any should perish' is a lie.

Rather, what I see are a whole mass of interlinked rationalisations for Christians to try to make the fact that miracles are claimed but never seen make sense. I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head around the pretzel logic any more.

If God exists, then he's not as advertised.

Maybe it depends on what you believe is a visible miracle.I don't think we will know on this earth all the times God intervenes on the behalf of someone.

But there is not the slightest doubt in my mind my family has had numerous miracles. The times we should not have survived and have with no other explanation that makes sense to my family.

My mother fell asleep at the wheel. She saw a little granddaughter[i believe angel} telling her,Grandma you must wake up. My mother woke up and was headed straight for a head on collision with a semi.

My younger brother was hit by a freight train doing 80 miles an hour. He slid on the ice and right into the train.He was dragged 380 yards down the tracks before his car broke loose from the train. He kicked his way out of the car and didn't have so much as a scratch.

One day at a beach in California he fell asleep on the sand.

He was run over by a dune buggy across his chest,leaving tread marks from the tires. The ambulance was called and they were convinced his chest had to be crushed. He stayed 2 days in the hospital and had not suffered any injury.

My older brother fell 34 feet when a steel beam gave way.He landed smack on his back. He got up and walked away.

I survived a pregnancy that I was not given any chance of survival.When my baby was born the medical staff kept trying to prepare me for his death.The faith of his very catholic nurse I believe saved his life. She rocked him and prayed over him numerous times a day. The little boy that should not have lived at 2 lbs 14 oz is now 6'6" and 280 lbs and has been one of the joys of our lives.

My husband,baby,and my younger brother survived a F5 tornado. My baby was found under the fridge.My husband and brother were unhurt. I was not at home but should have been. A niece kept calling me to come to her birthday party.I was tired and was not going.I refused the 4-5 times she called. The last time I said yes and had no idea why. I was 7 1/2 months pregnant and I don't think my chances would have been good.

This is only the highlights,won't bore you with the rest. I do not have the slightest doubt that God has provided some pretty miraculous protections.Why my family,don't know,other than a very Godly mother that spent many hours praying for the safety of her family.

I can't prove it,no one can,but having lived thru this and more I do not have the slightest doubt

[Twilight]

I'm interested in what is true based on evidence.

How did the universe form?

[Bravus]

There are actually very good, solid, evidence-based theories about that. If it's a real question I'm happy to explain them. If it's a 'gotcha' question there's probably not a lot of point.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm interested in what is true based on evidence.

How did the universe form?

Looking for evidence is not a claim to know everything. It is a position where one doesn't claim to know things one can't possibly know.

As far as the question of how the universe was formed I would point you to the various theories available based on evidence.

[Bravus]

Thanks for those testimonies, bonnie: and wow, you and yours have had eventful lives!

As I've repeatedly said here, I have no interest in taking anyone else's faith - or their miracles - away from them. Our interpretations of events can be different, and bonnie has acknowledged that.

I'm not about invalidating anyone else's beliefs or experiences.

All I'm asking - an incredibly modest request - is that others don't invalidate mine.

[bonnie]

Thanks for those testimonies, bonnie: and wow, you and yours have had eventful lives!

As I've repeatedly said here, I have no interest in taking anyone else's faith - or their miracles - away from them. Our interpretations of events can be different, and bonnie has acknowledged that.

I'm not about invalidating anyone else's beliefs or experiences.

All I'm asking - an incredibly modest request - is that others don't invalidate mine.

It sounds like you are asking for something that is not possible for anyone to provide.

During the early years of my parents marriage,one child and my mother was due with the second they lived on the prairie in northern MN .During a storm lightening started a prairie grass fire.There was a small lake on the farm. With the wind and tall dry grass it turned into a very dangerous fire and all the men were needed to fight the fire. Before my dad left he told my mother to take a blanket and go stay by the lake.To keep praying. If the fire reached a certain line it meant he could not get thru and she was to get into the lake as far as possible,keep a wet blanket over my sister and pray. The fire was getting close to the line my dad had drawn.

My mother of course was praying.As she started to go into the lake the wind suddenly shifted and blew back over the burned prairie.

Can anyone prove to you that it was the result of prayer and faith? Nope.Could I be convinced that it just happened? Nope.

That is something personal.No one can be convinced by the experience of others if there is doubt.

That is for them to come to terms with.

[Bravus]

Agreed. But I'm not so much talking about the experience of others as personal experience. Your experiences are evidence for you, but not evidence for me. And God, for whatever reason, has chosen not to vouchsafe any miracles to me, ever, despite fervent prayer and noble causes (e.g. praying for good for others, not myself).

I was also careful to say 'equally explainable by naturalistic causes': in your example above, the wind changes all the time. Jesus walking on the water is not equally explainable by natural causes. The feeding of the 5000, water into wine, and so on and so on. The claim is that God can do things that are *not* naturally explainable. Yet that never happens. It's possible to *interpret* events *as though they were miraculous* - but all of the things you listed have also happened to non-believers.

A supernatural miracle ought to be supernatural: not explainable in natural terms. Events for which natural explanations are sufficient but which people choose to interpret as supernatural aren't the same thing at all. It'd be OK if that's all the Bible and Christians claim happened, but they make bigger claims than that.

Claims the evidence does not support.

[bonnie]

A supernatural miracle ought to be supernatural: not explainable in natural terms. Events for which natural explanations are sufficient but which people choose to interpret as supernatural aren't the same thing at all. It'd be OK if that's all the Bible and Christians claim happened, but they make bigger claims than that.

Claims the evidence does not support.

I am not sure what you are referring to with all the Bible claim happened.I don't expect to see the visible miracles as when Christ was on earth.

People are fallible so I don't always take their belief as to what the bible says.

I still don't think anyone can provide you with the answers you are looking for.

[Bravus]

God can. If He chooses to. And if He's as advertised.