'not really a Christian'

[Bravus]

Science is what science is, and is not being kidnapped. Leave evolution aside. We had no theory of gravity until Newton. Newton's theory of gravity explained much, but it has been *completely* overturned by Einstein's theory within the last century. But we know Einstein's theory is incomplete, because it's inconsistent with quantum, so we're still searching. Nothing incontrovertible about the theory (or, if you prefer, the law) of gravity. Just our best current understanding and the on-going search for a better.

Like it or not, that's the nature of science. (I teach postgraduate courses in this stuff, I'm not just making it up.)

[Bravus]

Off to maths class now (learning, not teaching)

[Twilight]

Science is what science is, and is not being kidnapped. Leave evolution aside. We had no theory of gravity until Newton. Newton's theory of gravity explained much, but it has been *completely* overturned by Einstein's theory within the last century. But we know Einstein's theory is incomplete, because it's inconsistent with quantum, so we're still searching. Nothing incontrovertible about the theory (or, if you prefer, the law) of gravity. Just our best current understanding and the on-going search for a better.

Like it or not, that's the nature of science. (I teach postgraduate courses in this stuff, I'm not just making it up.)

More pitchfork waving Bravus?

More "I have science and you do not, so I am right!"?

Maybe you shouldn't be teaching anyone, if you think a singularity can exist in a small dimension of space with no gravity to hold it together?

That you think that the universe in its most singular form can exist without gravity?

Not only have you kidnapped gravity and killed gravity, you are now strangling the dead body in an attempt to maintain "scientific superiority".

You really must lay that pitchfork down Bravus, it doesn't look quite right with the white coat you are wearing...

I see no reason to deny the existance of gravity unless one blindly insists on a dogmatic belief in something that forces its rejection.

Interestingly, you started out by stating that gravity was not there.

Now you are saying "we do not understand gravity" correctly.

You have hidden within the classic evolutionary bolt hole.

The one that says:

"I am not wrong, but if I am wrong, then that is science and that is ok.

So give me all your chess pieces and let me play chess with you..."

You cannot have my king Bravus.

There is no logical reason for you to deny the existance of gravity.

Other than the need to be right in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

I rest my case by pointing to the dead body of gravity that you are even now strangling with such venom...

[Twilight]

Off to maths class now (learning, not teaching)

Ask them how 2+2= 4 if the number 2 did not exist before the number 4 had a chance to run around the block and play on the swings...

:-)

[SivartM]

Isn't the whole Bravus-kills-gravity plot overdramatic?

What does the Big Bang have to do with evolution? I don't see any reason to group them together; physics and biology are totally different fields. And... I'm sure that Bravus knows much more about both than either of us.

[BobRyan]

Bravus said -

Quote:

My thought was that the majority of the expansion happened *before* the force of gravity, or the other three fundamental forces, existed at all

Quote:

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the Universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling.

Here is the problem - what does pv= nRT really mean when you glom the 4 basic forces in nature (electromag, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, gravity)into some unknown ball of wax untested, unobserved, unexplored??

What does the "fabric of space time" actually mean without 2 or 3 of those forces?

What does "cooling" mean if those forces don't exist?

What does "speed" or "velocity" mean without the construct of stable space-time fabric?

Hence the second quote above starting with "much speculation" has more truth in it than the Big Bang theorists would like to admit.

Let's face it - right now actual science could easily forgo the Big-Bang and would just like to get its hands on "The here and now" stuff -- dark matter! One gram would do nicely for starters. Given that our dark matter universe is supposedly about 5 times larger than the normal-matter universe (23% of the total vs about 5% for normal matter) you would think that trying to find 1 gram of it would not be the "search for the holy grail" that it has been so far.

Yet we seem to be totally swamped in this 5% "normal matter" everywhere we look - and not a drop of dark matter to be had.

The real lesson here - is knowing where to draw the line between good storytelling and hard science. In some cases it is a line between good storytelling and very good storytelling.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Let me just bow out by repeating myself: "...an argument from personal ignorance or personal incredulity is not an argument."

[Bravus]

Not to open up a whole other front, but given that dark matter is now believed to be 'non-baryonic' by most scientists, a 'gram' might not even be the appropriate kind of measurement. Yet without it, the observed behaviour of the universe can't be explained. Unless you wish to invoke God continuously breaking the rules of (gasp) gravity.

[LifeHiscost]

God can. If He chooses to. And if He's as advertised.

I know, Bravus, you want something more than the ordinary evidence to verify what is more than you already believe. And it isn't the first time someone has insisted something be performed to give them belief. I believe God gave answers based upon the best interests of the persons making the demands.

""'I know, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but they're not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.'

"Abraham replied, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, they're not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.'" " Luke 16:30,31 MSG

"The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”"John 20:25 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”" John 20:29 NKJV

Perhaps your Father in heaven is waiting for you to love Him for what He has already given you as opposed to giving into your demands for something more or different.

Some have chosen death over separation from the One Who is able to raise them from the dead.

"I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need."

Philippians 4:11,12 KJV

"In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike."Matthew 5:45 NLT

Blessings!

[Bravus]

On the other hand. Gideon.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Or Hezekiah.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

At this point, I actually would only require some tangible evidence that the god described in the Bible exists at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by incontrovertible since that is your term, not mine.

Surely as an "agnostic" you would require some tangible evidence that God did not exist?

[cardw]

What I'm arguing is that the prophecy was fulfilled. The Gospels record that Jesus said that the story about the woman would be told all over the world, and this is exactly what is happening. The point is that when Jesus said this, or when it was written, there didn't appear to be any reason to think this woman's story would be proclaimed all over the world.

Forget whether the story is true. That is not my point. My point is that Jesus' prediction is being fulfilled even now. The story is being told in hundreds of languages and in every country on the face of the globe.

This is hardly a prediction, considering that the gospels were written after Christianity became a known presence.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Really?

Well on what basis other than your own imagination do you base all this on? LOL

Oh the internally consistent prophetic message of the bible.

[Twilight]

Isn't the whole Bravus-kills-gravity plot overdramatic?

What does the Big Bang have to do with evolution? I don't see any reason to group them together; physics and biology are totally different fields. And... I'm sure that Bravus knows much more about both than either of us.

Why?

Because he says "quantum" when he gets stuck?

The great athiestic/evolutionary rabbit hole...

You can fill your head with false science, doesn't make one "wise".

I do not recall how the Big Bang came up, probably along the lines of "we have science and we are right and cannot be proved wrong..."

[Twilight]

Hence the second quote above starting with "much speculation" has more truth in it than the Big Bang theorists would like to admit.

Let's face it - right now actual science could easily forgo the Big-Bang and would just like to get its hands on "The here and now" stuff -- dark matter! One gram would do nicely for starters. Given that our dark matter universe is supposedly about 5 times larger than the normal-matter universe (23% of the total vs about 5% for normal matter) you would think that trying to find 1 gram of it would not be the "search for the holy grail" that it has been so far.

Yet we seem to be totally swamped in this 5% "normal matter" everywhere we look - and not a drop of dark matter to be had.

The real lesson here - is knowing where to draw the line between good storytelling and hard science. In some cases it is a line between good storytelling and very good storytelling.

in Christ,

Bob

Good point Bob.

But you know it is our lack of intelligence that is the issue.

We do not understand this simple "evolutionary" stream of logic:

Wild Speculation = Theory = Fact

(we cannot explain how the universe holds itself together = lets invent dark matter so we can deny God = dark matter is now a fact).

Never mind the need to actually find it as you so aptly point out.

Remember, all one needs to do to establish evolutionary "truth" and all its cousins, is don a white coat, wave a pitchfork about and call all creationists stupid...

[Twilight]

Let me just bow out by repeating myself: "...an argument from personal ignorance or personal incredulity is not an argument."

Neither is hiding the evidence of a valid counter argument under the guise of:

Donning a white coat, waving a pitchfork and proclaiming:

"I am a scientist and know much more than you, so bow down and worship my knowledge."

Sorry Bravus, anyone that believes the things you believe, has no right to claim to be a scientist that God would approve of, a teacher of science fiction and fables, yes. But not a teacher of the truth.

I will add this to your list of evolutionary minded bolt holes.

1. We have science, so there...

2. I can murder any known scientific law if it means my theory needs to stand in court without witnesses to charge it of a crime...

3. I am a scientist, have you not seen my white coat?

4. Its Quantum.

None of the above actually mean a thing to me...

I reject anyone as a scientist who cannot hold the most basic rational thought together.

If they are a scientist, they need to start proving it, rather than making the claim and expecting others to bow down.

[Twilight]

Surely as an "agnostic" you would require some tangible evidence that God did not exist?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

What I'm arguing is that the prophecy was fulfilled. The Gospels record that Jesus said that the story about the woman would be told all over the world, and this is exactly what is happening. The point is that when Jesus said this, or when it was written, there didn't appear to be any reason to think this woman's story would be proclaimed all over the world.

Forget whether the story is true. That is not my point. My point is that Jesus' prediction is being fulfilled even now. The story is being told in hundreds of languages and in every country on the face of the globe.

This is hardly a prediction, considering that the gospels were written after Christianity became a known presence.

Ahh...

The burn the bible athiestic argument...

[Twilight]

It's very difficult to take you seriously.

[Bravus]

Not sure whose posts you've been reading, but that description sounds nothing like mine.

I haven't called anyone stupid. I haven't appealed to my authority as a scientist at all. I made one parenthetical comment about my teaching of the philosophy of science, nothing to do with physics, and didn't use that to bolster my argument.

You asked the question, some pages ago, 'can you explain the origin of the universe?' I did explain you raised an objection that displayed a fundamental misunderstanding of the explanation, and I clarified.

The pitchforks, white coats, atheism, evolution and so on are all purely products of your own fevered imagination.

[LifeHiscost]

And you are hardly describing the truth about the growth and spread of Christianity in its four hundred years. Moreover, your citing the brute force of the Holy Romans Empire doesn't address the remarkable spread of Christianity over the last two hundred years.

Not to mention the fact that in the last 10 to 20 years the Adventist church has gone from approximately 1-2million adherents to 25-27 million. And since there are true believers in every Christian denomination, that figure is probably at least double during that same period of time.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14 NKJV

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams. "

Acts 2:16 NKJV

Even so! Come, Lord Jesus!!!!!!!

Blessings

[LifeHiscost]

Buddhism and Hinduism would far outnumber Christians.

As did all unbelievers at the time of the flood. A short time later believers outnumbered unbelievers by about 100%.

Who was it that said, "Those who forget the lessons (mistakes?) of the past are doomed to repeat them."? Or something like that.

[LifeHiscost]

Please note also that I've said nothing about the First Cause of the Big Bang.

I as a believer, have accepted the big bang theory, without equivocation.

"For He (God) spoke, and (bang) it was done;He (God) commanded, and (bang) it stood fast."Psalm 33:9 NKJV Parenthesis mine LHC

Regards!

[Tom Wetmore]

A battle of wits with the unarmed it is...