Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight Further, when you use atheistic based naturalism as your basis for arguments (although I do not expect you to admit that of course), then you are actually denying Gods involvement unless He is given permission from the atheistic dominated "sciences" you want to champion. The theories that theistic evolutionists want to present as fact are at there very basic level athiestic philosophies. In every other culture that would be considered as a traitorous act... Evolution has no mention or credence in the bible, yet theistic evolutionists champion that ABOVE the bible. That type of testimony is the very worst for the gospel, as it betrays the very basic truths the bible presents. One could not do more damage to the gospel than one who is claiming to be a Christian, yet arguing the athiestic case against the bible. A time is coming when we will all have to choose where we stand. Mark I believe you have smote the nail upon it's head, Mark. We have to decide where our loyalties are... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 20, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted August 20, 2010 Show me where in the Bible it says that the universe was created recently. I'm not saying anything at all about (biological) evolution, about when this earth was created and when and how life on it started. So show me chapter and verse where what I have outlined contradicts the Bible in any way. And no, you are mistaken in thinking that I claimed the Big Bang theory is a fact. I have very carefully, every time I have spoken of it, called it the Big Bang theory. I have also carefully said it's our best current understanding but definitely subject to change and known to be incomplete. Bit hard to have a coherent conversation when (a) you're not actually reading what I'm writing and ( you have to include a heap of accusation and abuse in most every post. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 One could not do more damage to the gospel than one who is claiming to be a Christian, yet arguing the athiestic case against the bible. I can think of one wore thing: someone claiming to be a Christian who is not interested in truth. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 >>Evolution has no mention or credence in the bible, yet theistic evolutionists champion that ABOVE the bible.<< [ed.jasd] I’m enjoying the repartee between the various parties. Excelling. That said, I take slight exception to the first clause of the above statement – as being overly stringent. I think that one can only garner from Writ itself that it represents but a miniscule capsule of the actual; the extent of all else that is not within its pages being insurmountably large in scope – by contrast. It behooves all readers of Holy Writ to affect a humble mien vis-à-vis what we read therein – what we, individually, understand of that contained in its ptoages – and aware of that which has not been included within those same pages. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in our philosophical adumbrations.” --By License (v2.0) ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I am not suggesting Bravus is an athiest, I am not sure what his beliefs are. But he does hold athiestic doctrine as "scientific proof", that is clear. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 There is nothing humble about being arrogantly assertive about something you cannot prove. Mark, I'm glad we agree on this one thing. LOL Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aurelius Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 But is our current theory consistent with all the evidence we have? Yes it is. Again,we were asked to explain the origin of the universe, and I did so. ... But 'it's not perfect' is not a valid criticism, because it makes no claim to be. Our current models fail in many ways to explain what we see in the heavens. Since we have trouble with what we can observe, I think it's fair to suspend belief in the precision of the maths applied to the big bang. It's easy enough to form theories, but real science is hard to do. We can't test our theories empirically, so they could be way out and we wouldn't know. The point is that there are some things that are simply beyond our science. We need to take a step back, not get too excited about a few consistencies and fulfilled predictions. Scientists are human, and want to appear successful, and present their work as important. I wouldn't be surprised is there are some major revisions in the theory over the next decade or so. Quote ἡ ἀλήθεια ἐλευθερώσει ὑμᾶς Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aurelius Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Ah, now that I take a step back from this discussion, I realize that I've been off topic. So... I think it's quite possible to look for natural explanations of the origin of the universe and still be a good christian. Quote ἡ ἀλήθεια ἐλευθερώσει ὑμᾶς Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Show me where in the Bible it says that the universe was created recently. I'm not saying anything at all about (biological) evolution, about when this earth was created and when and how life on it started. So show me chapter and verse where what I have outlined contradicts the Bible in any way. And no, you are mistaken in thinking that I claimed the Big Bang theory is a fact. I have very carefully, every time I have spoken of it, called it the Big Bang theory. I have also carefully said it's our best current understanding but definitely subject to change and known to be incomplete. Bit hard to have a coherent conversation when (a) you're not actually reading what I'm writing and ( you have to include a heap of accusation and abuse in most every post. I am not making the argument that the universe was created recently. I do not think you can exposite that from the bible. My point is simple. The arguments you present are athiestic in origin, philosophy and intent. Therefore they have no basis in fact, but rather in atheistic philosophy. They cannot be proven. You are engaged in two poor arguments. 1. You claim to know "how" God did it. 2. You are trying to get the bible to conform to atheistic doctrine but want to present the athiesm as "science". And you did make the point that "theory means fact"... One can only conclude that when talking about the Big Bang theory and then presenting the idea that a theory is fact, that you were claiming that the Big Bang was a fact, specifically an athiestically motivated theory of the Big Bang that arises from naturalism. ------------------------------------- Do you realise that you are presenting arguments to Christians that are designed to destroy faith in God? Atheistic evangelists love to use your type of argument to deride Christians who believe in the Biblical account of Creation. They see you using an athiestic argument for the explanation of the origins of the universe, and they will "crow" to other Christians about it... Do not be deceived, if you want to be friends with the "athiestic agenda", then you are a friend with its author... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight One could not do more damage to the gospel than one who is claiming to be a Christian, yet arguing the athiestic case against the bible. I can think of one wore thing: someone claiming to be a Christian who is not interested in truth. Truth is truth. Athiestic "science" is not truth. It is propaganda. It is designed to remove a belief in the Creator God. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 >>Evolution has no mention or credence in the bible, yet theistic evolutionists champion that ABOVE the bible.<< [ed.jasd] I’m enjoying the repartee between the various parties. Excelling. That said, I take slight exception to the first clause of the above statement – as being overly stringent. I think that one can only garner from Writ itself that it represents but a miniscule capsule of the actual; the extent of all else that is not within its pages being insurmountably large in scope – by contrast. It behooves all readers of Holy Writ to affect a humble mien vis-à-vis what we read therein – what we, individually, understand of that contained in its ptoages – and aware of that which has not been included within those same pages. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in our philosophical adumbrations.” --By License (v2.0) ;-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 20, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted August 20, 2010 You've caught me. I'm vehemently and repeatedly extolling God's role as Creator in order to undermine faith in it. Sort of saving the village in order to destroy it, or something. (Or, here's a novel thought, I might just be telling the truth.) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 It matters little to me to be identified as an atheist. I wouldn't be embarrassed to be included in that group. And my purpose is to reveal what I believe to be true because I think that Christianity is harmful to humanity. And you have done a lot to help me prove my point. Aahhh... The "you have disagreed with me, so you are a bad Christian!!!" argument... :-) Emotional manipulation at its very best? ------------ Athiesm is a philosophy with core beliefs and doctrines. Foundational to that, is the belief in naturalism. The belief in evolution arises from that. The core assumptions of atheism is that there is no God. That is its core doctrine. Once one recognises that, one can recognise atheistic preaching at every turn. Hence my suspicion that you are in fact an atheist in agnostic clothing... :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Bravus But is our current theory consistent with all the evidence we have? Yes it is. Again,we were asked to explain the origin of the universe, and I did so. ... But 'it's not perfect' is not a valid criticism, because it makes no claim to be. Our current models fail in many ways to explain what we see in the heavens. Since we have trouble with what we can observe, I think it's fair to suspend belief in the precision of the maths applied to the big bang. It's easy enough to form theories, but real science is hard to do. We can't test our theories empirically, so they could be way out and we wouldn't know. The point is that there are some things that are simply beyond our science. We need to take a step back, not get too excited about a few consistencies and fulfilled predictions. Scientists are human, and want to appear successful, and present their work as important. I wouldn't be surprised is there are some major revisions in the theory over the next decade or so. Now that is honesty... But when you say "our models", whose models are you referring to? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Ah, now that I take a step back from this discussion, I realize that I've been off topic. So... I think it's quite possible to look for natural explanations of the origin of the universe and still be a good christian. But a Christian has the bible their authority and the bible never argues a "naturalistic origin" of the universe. Rather a "supernatural origin" of the universe. The bible says: God did it. It does not say how. It definitely does not say through "athiestic naturalism" which at its heart seeks to deny the existance of God as a foundational assumption. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Athiesm is a philosophy with core beliefs and doctrines. Foundational to that, is the belief in naturalism. The belief in evolution arises from that. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Hence my suspicion that you are in fact an atheist in agnostic clothing... :-) You know Mark it has suddenly occurred to me that you may indeed be an atheist in Christian clothing. With the identity changes and the "now sirs" you just may be an atheist doing a Stephen Colbert. The schtick you have going is pretty good. All I have to say is "Bravo!" Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 You've caught me. I'm vehemently and repeatedly extolling God's role as Creator in order to undermine faith in it. Sort of saving the village in order to destroy it, or something. (Or, here's a novel thought, I might just be telling the truth.) You are trying to marry Gods creation with athiestic dogma. Won't work Bravus... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I daresay that your emotional and illogical thinking is getting in the way of my Christian experience....Am I allowed to ask, based upon the above, Are YOU an atheist???? ???? Not sure exactly what point you are trying to make here Neil? But when an idea that is athiestic in nature is purchased by Christians, the only thing that can happen is confusion and compromise. Naturalism starts with the assumption there is no God. I fear that many Christians, out of fear of the "intellectual might" of atheism feel they have to accept its dogmas. They then try to shoehorn it into a Creation model and pretend all is okay. At no point anywhere in the bible does it even intimate that naturalism is a component of Creation. God created by "speaking". He does not need to be limited by the laws He created... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight Hence my suspicion that you are in fact an atheist in agnostic clothing... :-) You know Mark it has suddenly occurred to me that you may indeed be an atheist in Christian clothing. With the identity changes and the "now sirs" you just may be an atheist doing a Stephen Colbert. The schtick you have going is pretty good. All I have to say is "Bravo!" But sir, it is you that are espousing atheistic doctrine, whilst claiming you are neutral. I can categorically state, that I reject atheism in all its forms.... I know for a fact that: "God did it." Because of the internally consistent prophetic nature of scripture that you seem to think is removed with the: "Ha, ha, you believe that do you...?" argument. Which takes me back to conversations in the playground... How about an argument that is based in logic and counter thrust. Rather than the, "look at me whilst I laugh at you, aren't I superior"... type riposte you seem to be descending into. :-) I expect and hope better from you Cardw... :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 >>Then it would behove all not to try to fill in the gaps.<< Ahhh, Twilight, the gaps are where either greater attention or mortar is required. >>Do not plug the gaps with athiestic dogma.<< Athiestic is just a label, as is dogma. >>Rather, look to the pillars of the Creation message, that is abundantly clear in the bible.<< Some see through a glass darkly, whilst others – with greater transparency. >>God has not revealed "how" He made the universe.<< Indeed not!—however, He left a trail of crumbs... >>But He has revealed that He did.<< ...with mechanics and means – though not entirely unequivocal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 I know for a fact that: "God did it." Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight I know for a fact that: "God did it." Well I don't know that and you haven't given me any facts to support your claim. I have pointed to the internal consistency of the prophetic message of the bible. You have claimed it is not consistent. Then tried to state that I cannot make a claim without "proving" this, although you have done the very same... Along with using the "burning the bible" technique. What is this technique? It is the technique of using maximum prejudice to discount anything in the bible. It is the denial of all things biblical, no matter what suspension of logic is required. It comes from those who have a very strong anti-Christian agenda. Not from those that are genuinely agnostic. If you were genunely agnostic, you would state your reasons for rejection and be willing to listen to counter arguments. But that is not your spirit. It seems your spirit is one of denial of the bible at all costs. The spirit of an evangelical atheist... One who wants to push people away from Christianity. Which I belive you admitted in your posts earlier, along the lines of "protecting poeople"... If you want to know which side someone is on, you don't listen to their speech, you look at which way the pitchfork is pointed... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight I know for a fact that: "God did it." Originally Posted By: Cardw Well I don't know that and you haven't given me any facts to support your claim. I have pointed to the internal consistency of the prophetic message of the bible. You have claimed it is not consistent. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLions Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 I have openly said that I think Christianity is harmful to society. It's no secret. Only you seem to have a problem reading plain English. Thats funny, my Christianity has done nothing but help society. When I was in the world, I found that I broke many laws against society. I was associated with people that did not live in anyway a Christian life style or have any mention of God at all in their life, as far as I knew the were agnostics, or human moralists. At any rate, they sure were not looking out for the betterment of society. I found I need a Savior, to save me out of my anti-society behavior. I need a Savior to save me from my sins. I also found that I need a Lord, to take control of my life, so that I will now how to live a life that is of benefit society and myself. I found I need someone to take the punishment that I very much deserve. I found all of those in my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ. I 'think' that you think, the answers are all contained in yourself. Well, that sure didn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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