"Out of the Cities"

[abelisle]

After reading Richard's topic re: anticipated solar storm and his link (http://backtoenoch.org/Back-to-Enoch-News/scientists-predict-solar-storm.html), it made me think of something I've heard all my life as an Adventist: "get out of the cities!"

What's your take on this admonition? Granted I'm biased since I live in NYC, but I live very close to a heavily forested area that many would never think is within the environs of NYC.

Can we really prepare for the end times by living far away from cities and engaging in end-time preparedness like living off the land, building shelters, having extensive water and fuel supplies, etc.? Or is the best preparation a spiritual one - of putting all of our trust in God and prayer and living a Christlike life?

Alex

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I know of one fairly prominent SDA pastor/writer/evangelist who moved his family out of southern California to a very remote spot in the Pacific Northwest.

btw, the inner bark of most trees is edible.. not very tasty, but edible. And in the snow, look for snow shelters at the base of trees. A good snow cave can be dug there. The pollen from cattails can be used as flour, and the cattail roots are very good to eat. Never eat berries that are white. Most blue/purple berries are edible. Some red ones are edible; some are not. If your feet are cold, put on a hat...most of your body heat escapes through your cranial area. Wool is good for keeping you warm even if it gets wet. Info courtesy of OMSI Survival Training.

[abelisle]

Thanks for the "survivalist" info Pam!

Believe it or not, this city boy knows about this stuff - must've been all that vicarious "spec ops" training I've been through. :smilewink:

But I guess my point is that when the really bad stuff happens, I don't think your location will save you. Movibg out of the cities will surely help avoid the riots and mass violence that may occur but as for natural calamities such as earthquakes, volcanoes, massive storms etc. everyone will be affected I fear?

Finally, isn't there a touch of irony in how we as Adventists are waiting anxiously for Christ's second coming with all the endtime events that come with it and some of us are going into survivalist mode at the same time?

Doesn't EGW speak of small cells in the cities in Ministry of Healing?

Alex

[phkrause]

What's your take on this admonition? Granted I'm biased since I live in NYC, but I live very close to a heavily forested area that many would never think is within the environs of NYC.

Can we really prepare for the end times by living far away from cities and engaging in end-time preparedness like living off the land, building shelters, having extensive water and fuel supplies, etc.? Or is the best preparation a spiritual one - of putting all of our trust in God and prayer and living a Christlike life?

Alex

Alex I do agree with your post. Also having lived in NYC, we can be a Christlike influence to many. But at the same time I do believe we take "moving out of the cities" a little out of context. I knew a girl here in Mass that wanted to do this and finally she did. She moved down towards NYC with a bunch of others that would drive down to lower manhattan to "spread" the good news. Now they lived a little upstate, just outside of NYC, I think Livingston, NY, and grew there own food, etc. Not sure how this worked out for them or if its still in extence or not. I think this is what EG had in mind. Now don't get me wrong, I think living in the cities and working for the Lord, or whatever people want to call it, is also right for those that want to do this. I'm not saying we should do things our way but I do believe each of us has our way of hearing the Lord and what he wants us to do.

[Gerr]

While the best preparation is a spiritual one, if we believe the Lord's messenger, the troubles ahead will not just be spiritual but physical and material as well.

My wife and I believe we were led to move out of So. Cal to a small city in NC. We built our house on an acre and have planted some fruit trees and started a garden. We no longer have to deal with frustrating traffic. Our senses are not assaulted by every kind visual and aural evil as much.

[phkrause]

While the best preparation is a spiritual one, if we believe the Lord's messenger, the troubles ahead will not just be spiritual but physical and material as well.

My wife and I believe we were led to move out of So. Cal to a small city in NC. We built our house on an acre and have planted some fruit trees and started a garden. We no longer have to deal with frustrating traffic. Our senses are not assaulted by every kind visual and aural evil as much.

[fccool]

There are two mentalities that kind of frighten me more than the fact that there are troubles ahead.

Our salvation in the end times is spiritual, and not physical. That's the idea behind of loosing your life to find it. We should not be afraid of loosing our life. Christ frees us from exactly that... the fear of death. Most of the people on the earth will experience that fear like never before, so it's the time for us to shine with the brightest light.

If God wanted us to be safe and secure while the world is falling apart, then being Amish would surely be a way to go. Yet, in the end times, the cities is where the people are. If you want people to know about God, and proclaim the message the loudest... would you ever move to a place where no-one can hear you?

The pattern that was established by Christ and his disciples was exactly that. We should not be afraid of death, or loosing everything. Our safety and our idea of happiness is not here, yet when it all hits the fan... all of us who are "insane" right now, will be the most sane people on earth. We will be the ones who would support our communities by demonstrating unity in light of trouble. We will be the ones who will refuse to eat each other for the sake of keeping our lives.

We should certainly prepare, but not in a sense of storing up supplies so we can survive. We will survive the death no matter what. That's the hope that we all ascribe to. We should prepare, pay off our debts, and store up the goods to be the support that the world will need desperately in the end times. Nothing is set in stone until Christ will come. And Christ will not come until the the whole world will follow the beast and accept his mark.

So, you can believe that this event will probably not be in very near future. We still have some time left.

[Gordon1]

Some good thoughts fccool - all Christians should be ready to die for the truth. But you've not flushed out the principles of country living explained by EG White which place this in proper context.

Very few, perhaps none, can live in Sodom & Gomorah without being affected and degraded. Children are much more vulnerable. The city is no place for families. The prophet makes no compromise on this point. Yes the cities are full of people, but we cannot attract them to the country if we have nowhere to bring them. (And besides there are many rural dwellers who await the gospel message.) The plain instruction is that the cities be worked from outpost centers (perhaps just a family farm) by visiting the cities, but not living in them. City living affects the mind and this is their main danger.

The Biblical record shows that only a handful would leave the metropolis of Sodom, though God is not willing that any should perish. But many have chosen the pleasures of sin and are content to dwell therein. God's people are to find those who wish to leave and facilitate their escape, as brands plucked from the fire.

I see no safety for those who willingly live in the cities unless God has called them to a specific full time ministry warning of the signs of the times. The churches themselves are asleep and the pastors ignore this message.

Country living is a calling from God to His people, as a ministry to the world. Yes, we could learn much from the Amish example, but not their ignorance of the Bible. The last movements will be rapid ones and it will come on like a flood. I thought you had earlier addressed the economic crisis ahead. The 1930s Depression was in a different context in America. Many people were rural dwellers living off the land, now the bulk are in cities. In a crisis, the foodstores are empty in 48 hours or less. Let's not forget about natural disasters such as 20 milion (!!) displaced by flooding in Pakistan. Wait till this comes to the USA. Maybe the Mississippi.

We have no time left. Moral decay is causing the angels to let slip their protection and the political arm of the Church is soon to impose her will.

God's people will act now if we hope to help others, otherwise we'll be looking for handouts from the state too. And directed by Clergy Response Teams.

This is the culmination of the Great Controversy at our doors. No time for peace and safety messages. Deafening silence from the pulpits, and from Silver Springs. And Religious Liberty. Yes pay off debts, but watch the signs of the times.

A helpful read on our Counry Living message is The Broken BluePrint by Vance Ferrell, describing the purpose of the medical missionary work in the context of preparation for Christ's return.

The book can be read here: http://blueprintoutposts.org/brokenblueprint.aspx

[Gerr]

Do you have children? If you're ever in LA, take them through Sunset Blvd some evening. Or maybe just a block off main st, San Diego, where all the strip joints are. But maybe any major city will do.

[Gerr]

Amen, brother!

[Tom Wetmore]

The overwhelming majority of people we need to reach live in the cities. We are naive if we think that we escape the evil influences of the cities by leaving them. Technology (Internet, cable/satellite TV, entertainment of all sorts) and commerce have brought those evils to the rural areas and small towns. Immoral sexual behavior, drug/alcohol use, etc. are very much present in small towns and rural areas. Geographic relocation is a naive and simplistic solution that does not address the real problem. And it only removes us from the vast majority of people we need to reach with the gospel.

[Gerr]

Hey, CoAspen, if you don't feel convicted to move as yet, then stay where you are. As Joel Osteen likes to say, stay and bloom where the Lord has planted you.

BTW, maybe I might have missed it, but I don't find her advising everyone to move into the country and make a living out of farming.

[Gerr]

The overwhelming majority of people we need to reach live in the cities. We are naive if we think that we escape the evil influences of the cities by leaving them. Technology (Internet, cable/satellite TV, entertainment of all sorts) and commerce have brought those evils to the rural areas and small towns. Immoral sexual behavior, drug/alcohol use, etc. are very much present in small towns and rural areas. Geographic relocation is a naive and simplistic solution that does not address the real problem. .

Are you telling us these counsels are useless?

advantages of AH 141-7

for the poor in large cities MH 190-1

blessings of MH 367

call to 2SM 354-9

children benefited by 4T 136

influences corrupting youth’s morals are not so strong in 4T 136

man is not completely free from annoyances and perplexing care in 4T 136

quiet and freedom of, invalids benefited by MH 264

advantages of living in, to SDA families 2SM 355

cheaper for the poor to live in, than in city 4T 510

child living in, should have garden AH 388

educate SDA to leave cities for AH 373; 2SM 142

education in cooking that will encourage SDA to move from cities into MM 267-8

family who should have moved to 2T 402-3

fewer temptations in LS 356

God desires that His people move into MM 311

home in, with beautiful surroundings MH 370

John the Baptist was reared in CG 23

med. institutions should be located in 7T 82-3

multitudes of poor people in need in MH 192

parents advised to secure small homes in CD 400

sanitariums located in, patients benefited by 7T 78-9, 82-3, 85-7

SDA families should move from cities and into MM 310; 2SM 141, 357

Quote:

And it only removes us from the vast majority of people we need to reach with the gospel.

The counsel is to work the cities from outside. Moving to the country is not an advice to abandon the cities altogether!And what are SDAs who are living in the cities doing for the city people now?

[phkrause]

Gerry if you know Tony Romero at all you wouldn't ask this question. There are many who do lots in the big cities.

[Gerr]

That's good to know, PK. And Tony probably needs to stay, and will probably be the last to move out if he moves out at all. But what are the vast majority of SDAs still in the cities doing? Are they doing what Tony is doing? No, I'm not judging anyone. Just asking. I don't think she ever said that EVERYONE is to move out.

[fccool]

Do you have children? If you're ever in LA, take them through Sunset Blvd some evening. Or maybe just a block off main st, San Diego, where all the strip joints are. But maybe any major city will do.

I've lived in north Miami, my friend. We had several of those in two blocks radius from our Christian school. On top of that, I grew up in Soviet Ukraine where people start drinking at the age of 10.

My parents were smart enough to reason with me instead of "shielding me from the world"... so I was atheist who decided not to drink for the reason of self-control because my parents did not shield me from the reality.

The harder you shield your children from the reality, the harder it will be for them to stand on their own when nobody prohibits them to be curious.

[GreatLakesGramma]

You don't have to live in the city to work in the city. And regarding family farms, small-scale family farmers make their living with other jobs, and farm on the side. The income we get from our farm pays the property tax, and that's about all.

[fccool]

Are you telling us these counsels are useless?

The counsel is to work the cities from outside. Moving to the country is not an advice to abandon the cities altogether!And what are SDAs who are living in the cities doing for the city people now?

Here's a picture of Chicago when she was alive:

The cities at that time were caught up in industrial revolution boom. The farmers and immigrants fled to the cities that were unable to accommodate such large quantities of people at that time, overcrowding these and creating environment that could hardly be compared to what we have today. The sewage systems were inadequate, polluting virtually anything and everything.

The cities were full of disease. Were very unsanitary, dirty from industrial pollution snogging the skies. It was really gloomy, dark. Not comparable to the modern cities and living conditions by any stretch of imagination.

I don't think she ever foreseen the improvement of the living conditions to the degree that we have it today.

[Gerr]

I don't think she ever foreseen the improvement of the living conditions to the degree that we

have it today.

Did not foresee? Here's what she claims she saw.

"Light has been given me that the cities will be filled with confusion, violence, and crime, and that these things will increase till the end of this earth's history." 7T 84.

"When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come." 3MR 314.

"The end is near and every city is to be turned upside down every way. There will be confusion in every city. Everything that can be shaken is to be shaken and we do not know what will come next. The judgments will be according to the wickedness of the people and the light of truth that they have had. 1MR 248.

"The time is near when large cities will be swept away, and all should be warned of these coming judgments." Ev 29.

[phkrause]

Did not foresee? Here's what she claims she saw.

"Light has been given me that the cities will be filled with confusion, violence, and crime, and that these things will increase till the end of this earth's history." 7T 84.

"When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come." 3MR 314.

"The end is near and every city is to be turned upside down every way. There will be confusion in every city. Everything that can be shaken is to be shaken and we do not know what will come next. The judgments will be according to the wickedness of the people and the light of truth that they have had. 1MR 248.

"The time is near when large cities will be swept away, and all should be warned of these coming judgments." Ev 29.

I do agree with you Gerry, I don't see the cities getting any better. There a lot worse even from my when I lived in the big Apple. And I agree with her that they will only get worse.

As far as Tony Romeo, he actually lives upstate NY, close to camp berkshire. But works in the city. He used to work for a big ad agency down there but gave that job up to do ministry. To me each has there calling and God will work through each of us in whatever capacity it takes. Be it a plumber, electrician, office worker, etc. As long as we allow him to be in us.

[lazarus]

Recently, my wife and I have been bought to the place where we plan to move from suburbia into the country. Coincidentally, last Friday night I read through the EGW compilation called "Country Living". She gives very balanced advice on how and when it should be done.

I have seen folk scare people, put a guilt trip and badger people on the issue of leaving the city. This kind of decision requires much prayer, planning and time.

Let there be nothing done in a disorderly manner, that there shall be a great loss or sacrifice made upon property because of ardent, impulsive speeches which stir up and enthusiasm which is not after the order of God, CL 27

This issue has been pressing on my mind for at least two years. I'm commuted to my church and reaching people in Urban areas so I keep bringing the issue to the Lord in prayer. I also believe that I am too dependent on society for food, power, water. I feel the need to live more independently. I also want to give my sons an experience of the country and all that has to offer. I love city life and don' t forget the New Jerusalem will be a city. There is beauty, community and richness in the city but its time to go.

I have mentioned the issue once in a sermon but only in passing. I don't feel yet led to make it a big issue. We had Mountain Media ministries who gave a lot of folks food for thought. Let each man be persuaded.

Spread every plan before God with fasting, [and] with the humbling of the soul

before the Lord Jesus, and commit thy ways unto the Lord. The sure promise is, He will

direct the paths. He is infinite in resources. The Holy One of Israel, who calls the host of

heaven by name, and holds the stars of heaven in position, has you individually in His

keeping.... {CL 28.1}

I have no issue with those who see no need to make that kind of move. We have to be led by the Spirit in these matters. I have a colleague who quit Conference employment to move to DC and minister to the poor. The Lord has called him and its as simple as that.

Those who know my posting know I'm not typically a '3ABN' type but on this issue I'm there perhaps not in style but in substance.

[phkrause]

Recently, my wife and I have been bought to the place where we plan to move from suburbia into the country. Coincidentally, last Friday night I read through the EGW compilation called "Country Living". She gives very balanced advice on how and when it should be done.

I have seen folk scare people, put a guilt trip and badger people on the issue of leaving the city. This kind of decision requires much prayer, planning and time.

Let there be nothing done in a disorderly manner, that there shall be a great loss or sacrifice made upon property because of ardent, impulsive speeches which stir up and enthusiasm which is not after the order of God, CL 27

This issue has been pressing on my mind for at least two years. I'm commuted to my church and reaching people in Urban areas so I keep bringing the issue to the Lord in prayer. I also believe that I am too dependent on society for food, power, water. I feel the need to live more independently. I also want to give my sons an experience of the country and all that has to offer. I love city life and don' t forget the New Jerusalem will be a city. There is beauty, community and richness in the city but its time to go.

I have mentioned the issue once in a sermon but only in passing. I don't feel yet led to make it a big issue. We had Mountain Media ministries who gave a lot of folks food for thought. Let each man be persuaded.

Spread every plan before God with fasting, [and] with the humbling of the soul

before the Lord Jesus, and commit thy ways unto the Lord. The sure promise is, He will

direct the paths. He is infinite in resources. The Holy One of Israel, who calls the host of

heaven by name, and holds the stars of heaven in position, has you individually in His

keeping.... {CL 28.1}

I have no issue with those who see no need to make that kind of move. We have to be led by the Spirit in these matters. I have a colleague who quit Conference employment to move to DC and minister to the poor. The Lord has called him and its as simple as that.

Those who know my posting know I'm not typically a '3ABN' type but on this issue I'm there perhaps not in style but in substance.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I don't think she ever foreseen the improvement of the living conditions to the degree that we

have it today.

Did not foresee? Here's what she claims she saw.

"Light has been given me that the cities will be filled with confusion, violence, and crime, and that these things will increase till the end of this earth's history." 7T 84.

"When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come." 3MR 314.

"The end is near and every city is to be turned upside down every way. There will be confusion in every city. Everything that can be shaken is to be shaken and we do not know what will come next. The judgments will be according to the wickedness of the people and the light of truth that they have had. 1MR 248.

"The time is near when large cities will be swept away, and all should be warned of these coming judgments." Ev 29.

It's almost like you want that to happen.

Thank you for proving my point BTW... she did not see the improvement in city life that we've experienced from 60s and on.

[Gordon1]

Yes Gerry, all these warnings will be fulfilled. They were urgent over one hundrd years ago, yet still we drag our heels and say, maybe not yet. Raising successive generations of Adventist in the Sodom & Gomorah until we can't make a distinction between right and wrong.

Prophets have no trouble seeing well into the future, even to the earth made new and beyond. Country Living is an encouragement, but still a compilation (1946) and therefore lacks the balance of a self-contained article or essay, of which EGW wrote numerous upon this subject.

It's almost like you want that to happen.

FCC - a less than charitable response. Why accuse Gerry of inviting destruction? Rememeber that Satan's agents will also accuse God's people of bringing the end time calamities upon the earth, and so revive the calls of heresy, ushering in the Sunday Law. Gerry is relaying future events.

If we resist the words of inspiration sent to save us, we make of no effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.

[Gerr]

If we resist the words of inspiration sent to save us, we make of no effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.....Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony." 1SM 48.