"Out of the Cities"

[fccool]

Catholicism - Rejecting Papal tradition is a work of Satan and thus to unsettle the confidence of people in God

Islam - Rejecting Mohammed is to reject teaching of OT God

Mormons - Rejecting Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is to reject God's warning

JW - Rejecting Watchtower society's warnings is to reject God

Adventism - By rejecting E.G.White you reject God

Christianity - ONLY BY REJECTING CHRIST YOU REJECT GOD

[Gail]

I have thought that we will all have to go through our time of Jacob's trouble no matter where we are.

There is no place on earth that people cannot find. I have thought that if we store up food against that time that it will be taken from us by force by desperate, hungry people.

If you are languishing in a jailcell for your faith, we need to believe that God will care for us as He did for Elijah. Either that or die for the Lord.

Somewhere along the line I picked up the idea that we cannot save ourselves, that in that time before Jesus comes our dependence will be on God only.

Of course, I could be wrong. Jesus' admonition in Matthew 24:15-> is believed by many to apply also to the end of the world (since that was the question that was asked).

[Gerr]

Hey, Fccool, if you don't believe her message, or any one else who doesn't believe her message, then don't pay attention. But there are those of us who have prayed about the counsels and felt impressed to make the move we have made. And we (my wife and I) are not one bit regretful that we moved from the congestion of SoCal to a rural area in NC.

BTW, where is this statement of yours: Adventism - By rejecting E.G.White you reject God - found at?

[Gordon1]

Hi Gail,

No, of course we cannot save ourselves. Quite true. We are only saved in submission, in obedience to God's still small voice saying "this is the way, walk ye in it."

God's people can never be saved in disobedience.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is a typical example of future prophetic fulfillment.

Fccool - Ellen White was only a mouthpiece, like any prophet.

Grieving the Spirit turns away God. If we believed the story of Sodom & Gomorrah, her testimony to leave the cities would be redundant. But we didn't believe back then, nor now.

You may see the cities as much more sanitized. I see a rampant increase in sexual excess. In imagery, behavior and dress. Even supermarket clerks are half naked or overtly transexual. One cannot buy plain food or access government services without exposure to teeming flesh.

God sent messengers of mercy to warn of Sodom's destruction. History repeats.

[Gail]

As each is led by the Spirit, let them follow their consciences.

I had a friend once, and have heard of others, that decided that they were to leave the city. My friend cut herself off from her support system, her family and friends, and ended up herself shipwrecking her faith. I lost a sister in the faith to that scenario. The time was not right, and these ones lost their faith altogether.

When we see the sign, Jesus said, of being surrounded by those who support the abomination of desolation, we will know not to look back. If we don't quite understand what that is now, we can trust that as the Christians in Jerusalem we WILL know it if we keep His word.

I don't doubt that many have been impressed to leave the city already. Our family moved away from Vancouver when I had to beware of traffic, child molesters, murders and shootings when my children were toddlers. At that time I was certainly impressed to raise my kids differently!

[fccool]

Hmm.. let me just backtrack and copy and paste this one.

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.....Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony." 1SM 48.

The obvious implication of this statement is that anyone who does not believe that the testimonies are from God and is the truth is in fact deceived by Satan. But it's more subtle than that. The below is the account of advice on activities that most of you absolutely ignore or rationalize away in some manner that would make it more acceptable today. Yet, the fact remains the same. You pick and choose what you want to believe.

"God loves honest-hearted, truthful children, but cannot love those who are dishonest. . . . When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong." (An Appeal to the Youth, pp. 42,62) That's right, every time you do wrong, God and will not love you .

"If any among us are sick, let us not dishonor God by applying to earthly physicians, but apply to the God of Israel. If we follow his directions the sick will be healed. God's promise cannot fail. Have faith in God, and trust wholly in him, that when Christ who is our life shall appear we may appear with him in glory." (To Those who are Receiving the Seal of the Living God, January 31, 1849) She had quite a change of heart 50 years later eh?

"Soon butter will never be recommended, and after a time milk will be entirely discarded; for disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time will come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter."--Letter 14, 1901, p. 3. Still waiting

"You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruption's of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362, 1870) hmm... really?

"Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children."(Spalding and Magan, p. 211) I wonder what Christ would say to that? guess He was a terrible example after all?

here are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, etc., which we cannot approve, because Heaven condemns them. These amusements open the door for great evil. They are not beneficial in their tendency, but have an exciting influence, producing in some minds a passion for those plays which lead to gambling and dissipation. All such plays should be condemned by Christians, and something perfectly harmless should be substituted in their place." (Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 514) I certainly could admire extremism in stoic ideals, yet playing chess as an evil vice? Seriously?

"A view of things was presented before me in which the students were playing games of tennis and cricket. Then I was given instruction regarding the character of these amusements. They were presented to me as a species of idolatry, like the idols of the nations." Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 350 Preach it, Sister!

"I was told by my Guide: 'Look ye, and behold the idolatry of My people, to whom I have been speaking, rising up early, and presenting to them their dangers. I looked that they should bring forth fruit.' There were some who were striving for the mastery, each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.'" (Testimonies Vol. 8, p. 52) We better stop the preachers babbling about baseball, and for goodness sake, stop the idea of healthy competition within the limits of respect! We should never give them grades or make them think that they are successful in something, right?

"Dear Brother E: I have just read the Review and Herald and have seen your article giving a list of good books for our youth. I was much surprised to read your recommendation of Uncle Tom's Cabin, Robinson Crusoe, and such books. You are in danger of becoming somewhat careless in your writing. It would be well to give thought and careful study to whatever is to be immortalized in print. I am really alarmed to see that your spiritual eyesight is not more clear in the matter of selecting and recommending reading for our youth. I know that the recommendation in our papers of such infatuating books as Uncle Tom's Cabin will in many minds justify the reading of other books which are nothing but fiction. . . . This recommendation will make taxing work for those who are laboring to persuade the youth to discard fictitious reading. I have repeatedly seen the evil of reading such books as you recommend, and have an article all prepared, cautioning our youth in this very matter." (Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 516) Ok... this one is right on the money! Rationalize away!

"The true Christian will not desire to enter any place of amusement or engage in any diversion upon which he cannot ask the blessing of God. He will not be found at the theater, the billiard hall, or the bowling saloon." (Messages to Young People, p. 398) I guess I'm not a true Christian then. That's what Christianity is all about, right? ... not being somewhere?

"The love for these scenes increases with every indulgence, as the desire for intoxicating drink strengthens with its use. The only safe course is to shun the theater, the circus, and every other questionable place of amusement." (Messages to Young People, p. 380) That's right... because there's a potential to get addicted to sugar, we should stop using it all together. And if there's a potential of any misuse of anything at all... perhaps we should avoid it. Should I pack my bags for the cloister? I really wonder what her opinion in Internet would be? Perhaps I should not be speaking to you at all here.

"They do not blush to witness the exposure of the almost naked limbs. But the limbs thoroughly dressed with warm pants shock their modesty. Such opposition to the pants, which are positively modest, and which protect the limbs from exposure and chilliness, should be supported by sensible reason." (Health Reformer, May 1, 1872) Put on those pants ladies. I better not catch you in your swimming gear.

"We cannot, if we would, conceal the fact that women have feet and limbs that were made for use. But in regard to the exposure, this is on the other side of the question. We have traveled extensively the past twenty-five years, and have been eye-witnesses to many indecent exposures of the limbs. But the most common exposure is seen upon the streets in light snow, or wet and mud. Both hands are required to elevate the dress, that it may clear the wet and filth. It is a common thing to see the dress raised one-half of a yard [18 inches/50 cm], exposing an almost unclad ankle to the sight of gentlemen, but no one seems to blush at this immodest exposure. No one's sensitive modesty seems shocked for the reason that this is customary. It is fashion, and for this reason it is endured. No outcry of immodesty is heard, although it is so in the fullest sense." (Ibid.) Wow... exposing an ankle???? How dare they? How pornographic! Keep those ankles away from my eyes. I don't care if it's 90 degrees outside!

"Not one penny should be spent for a circlet of gold to testify that we are married." (Special Testimony to Ministers and Workers, No. 3, 1895). Take of those wedding idols, people. We need more money for church decoration.

"Women should be educated and qualified just as thoroughly as possible to become practitioners in the delicate diseases which afflict women, that their secret parts should not be exposed to the notice of men. ... It is a most horrible practice, this revealing the secret parts of women to men, or men being treated by women." (Kress Collection, p. 23) How very spiritually mature. I guess there's no such thing as Adventist male gynecologist or female urologists, right? None of our women or men who believe in he teachings ignore this nonsense, right?

"The violation of the fourth commandment is not confined to the preparation of food. Many carelessly put off blacking their boots, and shaving, until after the beginning of the Sabbath. This should not be. If any neglect to do such work on a working day, they should have respect enough for God's holy time to let their beards remain unshaven, their boots rough and brown, until the Sabbath is past. This might help their memory, and make them more careful to do their own work on the six working days." (Signs of the Times, May 25, 1882) Reminiscent of Jewish imposition, isn't it?

"I was shown that Sabbathkeeping Adventists should not engage in life insurance. This is a commerce with the world which God does not approve. Those who engage in this enterprise are uniting with the world, while God calls His people to come out from among them and to be separate. ... 'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.' Here is the only life insurance which heaven sanctions." (Testimonies Vol. 1, p. 549) Hello Drop that life insurance, would you!

"These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue." (Country Living, p. 11) That's right!

"Those who claim to be the children of God are in no case to bind up with the labor unions that are formed or that shall be formed. This the Lord forbids. Cannot those who study the prophecies see and understand what is before us?" (Letter 201, 1902) Amen!

"I have received letters questioning me in regard to the proper attitude to be taken by a person offering prayer to the Sovereign of the universe. Where have our brethren obtained the idea that they should stand upon their feet when praying to God? One who has been educated for about five years in Battle Creek was asked to lead in prayer before Sister White should speak to the people. But as I beheld him standing upright upon his feet while his lips were about to open in prayer to God, my soul was stirred within me to give him an open rebuke. Calling him by name, I said, 'Get down upon your knees.' This is the proper position always." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 311) That's right, ALWAYS!

If you don't believe that she is correct on the above accounts, then can you really believe that other things are not merely opinions derived from observation? And if we truly believe that she is a prophet and correct on these accounts, then why do we neglect teaching these in church? I can tell you why... you'd be teaching to an empty audience.

[John317]

When viewed in their time and place and if context is taken into account, all those statement have a good purpose and are true.

I had a teacher in public college who would do the same thing with the Bible that you are doing with the Spirit of prophecy.

You could do the same thing with the pictures that appear in Medical text books if you separate them from their context.

[John317]

Hmm.. let me just backtrack and copy and paste this one.

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.....Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony." 1SM 48.

True, and we see the fulfillment before our eyes today.

The question we need to ask ourselves is, am I helping to unsettle confidence in the true testimony or am I helping to build up confidence in it?

In the church today, there are those who question the following:

1) Whether Satan and the fallen angels are even real, and whether they actually attack the church and individuals in it.

2) Whether Ellen White's writings are "the testimony of the Spriit of God," or "the true testimony"-- that is, whether she was a true prophet.

3) Whether God even has a "remnant people" today.

I don't see how anyone can doubt that there are people from within the church who are trying to unsettle faith in the true testimony. Many of these people make no effort to hide what they are doing. I see this move as gaining in intensity within recent years.

[fccool]

When viewed in their time and place and if context is taken into account, all those statement have a good purpose and are true.

I had a teacher in public college who would do the same thing with the Bible that you are doing with the Spirit of prophecy.

You could do the same thing with the pictures that appear in Medical text books if you separate them from their context.

That's the problem with interpretation. Anything we don't apply anymore can be chalked up to the historical context... yet there's absolutely no such warranty for many of the above-made statements. If she'd be alive today, I believe she'd be even more strict on many things that we consider to be ok. For example, she would probably condemn the Adventist Health-care for having male gynecologists.

The other side of the argument is usually... well... playing chess can be addicting, and we should not let anything addicting come before God. But, not using life insurance should not be fallowed, because there was some kind of context that justifies these statements .

I can argue that Hitler was a good guy and taken out of context with such mentality. At some point of time there should be some honesty as to why we don't fallow certain advice anymore, and perhaps because it opinionated nonsense to begin with.

I'd have to note that not all of her writings contain opinionated nonsense, but once in a while you will find it in there.

[Gordon1]

Well fccool,

You've certainly honed your edge of scorn and ridicule. I have no argument with you. I leave you to your peace and safety message.

[fccool]

I don't believe we were promised peace and safety.

[Gerr]

"Soon butter will never be recommended, and after a time milk will be entirely discarded; for disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time will come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter."--Letter 14, 1901, p. 3. Still waiting

You need not wait too long.

Millions of eggs from the Iowa farms at the heart of a massive salmonella recall are not destined for the garbage but for a table near you. AP News - 8/25

Besides, egg yolk is a good source of cholesterol, so is butter. This has been known for decades.

Quote:

"If any among us are sick, let us not dishonor God by applying to earthly physicians, but apply to the God of Israel. If we follow his directions the sick will be healed. God's promise cannot fail. Have faith in God, and trust wholly in him, that when Christ who is our life shall appear we may appear with him in glory." (To Those who are Receiving the Seal of the Living God, January 31, 1849) She had quite a change of heart 50 years later eh?

NOTICE that it was written in 1849!!! Do you know the state of medical practice at that time? If you don't, do a little searching, and you will find that the counsel is not so nutty as you seem to present. You want to apply that statement today?

I have a mind to answer every item, but if I did that with every critic that has some beef about SDA doctrine or belief or practice, I would have no time to do anything else. But if you follow carefully what she said, I think that those quotes you have were not as crazy as they seem taken out of their context of time and place.

[fccool]

You need not wait too long.

Quote:

Millions of eggs from the Iowa farms at the heart of a massive salmonella recall are not destined for the garbage but for a table near you. AP News - 8/25

Besides, egg yolk is a good source of cholesterol, so is butter. This has been known for decades.

Just had some this morning... perfectly fine...

Quote:

NOTICE that it was written in 1849!!! Do you know the state of medical practice at that time? If you don't, do a little searching, and you will find that the counsel is not so nutty as you seem to present. You want to apply that statement today?

I have a mind to answer every item, but if I did that with every critic that has some beef about SDA doctrine or belief or practice, I would have no time to do anything else. But if you follow carefully what she said, I think that those quotes you have were not as crazy as they seem taken out of their context of time and place.

OK... explain playing chess to me :)

[Gerr]

Just had some this morning... perfectly fine...

So far.

And I'm having strawberries, nuts, and cherries this morning. My last cholesterol check was 158.

[OK... explain playing chess to me

This I can relate to you from experience. I used to play some chess when I was younger. My brother and I would play until 2-3 a.m. We just couldn't stop. Even if we quit earlier, I wouldn't be able to have a good sleep because I could see the chess board in my mind playing the game. That's why I don't play it anymore. No doubt not everyone who plays chess plays it like I did, but I'm sure not all who drink alcohol become addicts either.

[fccool]

Quote:

This I can relate to you from experience. I used to play some chess when I was younger. My brother and I would play until 2-3 a.m. We just couldn't stop. Even if we quit earlier, I wouldn't be able to have a good sleep because I could see the chess board in my mind playing the game. That's why I don't play it anymore. No doubt not everyone who plays chess plays it like I did, but I'm sure not all who drink alcohol become addicts either.

I see quite a bit of this type of justification. Perhaps the problem is not chess, but your lack of self-control.

I could say that I really can't stop eating vitamins, so whenever there's a bottle in the house, I tend to gobble it all up. Would it be a warrant to say that vitamins should not be taken?

You can make this case to just about anything that's good. Excessive exercise is TERRIBLE for your health. It creates undue stress on your body, and wears it out. Does it mean we should not exercise?

This is the type of logic that I see being defended quite a bit in Adventist circles, instead of teaching of moderation and self-control.

[Gerr]

I could say that I really can't stop eating vitamins, so whenever there's a bottle in the house, I tend to gobble it all up. Would it be a warrant to say that vitamins should not be taken?

You'd be the first I have ever heard of being addicted to vitamins!!!

Quote:

This is the type of logic that I see being defended quite a bit in Adventist circles, instead of teaching of moderation and self-control.

By your own logic, we should say nothing about cigarettes, alcohol, or drugs. Just preach moderation and self-control instead.

Here is what she said about chess:

There are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, etc., which we cannot approve, because Heaven condemns them. These amusements open the door for great evil. They are not beneficial in their tendency, but have an exciting influence, producing in some minds a passion for those plays which lead to gambling and dissipation.

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1; Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855; 2002 (514). Pacific Press Publishing Association.I

I don't see her saying they are evil in themselves, rather what they can lead to. So I rarely ever play chess anymore. One game leads to another and to another, etc.

[SivartM]

Um... if heaven condemns them, doesn't that make them evil? :\

When I was 13 or so, I joined a chess club at the library, and my grandfather warned me not to start gambling. My mom had to explain the Ellen reference. I still don't get it.

By the way, you are addicted to vitamins. I dare you to stop consuming them.

[Gordon1]

And I'm having strawberries, nuts, and cherries this morning. My last cholesterol check was 158.

Interesting point. To compare the lipid profiles from those who follow the SOP guidelines (vegan, low fat) and those who consume animal products and vegetable oils. Who's on meds, who's not. Etc.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I could say that I really can't stop eating vitamins, so whenever there's a bottle in the house, I tend to gobble it all up. Would it be a warrant to say that vitamins should not be taken?

You'd be the first I have ever heard of being addicted to vitamins!!!

Quote:

This is the type of logic that I see being defended quite a bit in Adventist circles, instead of teaching of moderation and self-control.

By your own logic, we should say nothing about cigarettes, alcohol, or drugs. Just preach moderation and self-control instead.

Here is what she said about chess:

There are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, etc., which we cannot approve, because Heaven condemns them. These amusements open the door for great evil. They are not beneficial in their tendency, but have an exciting influence, producing in some minds a passion for those plays which lead to gambling and dissipation.

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1; Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855; 2002 (514). Pacific Press Publishing Association.I

I don't see her saying they are evil in themselves, rather what they can lead to. So I rarely ever play chess anymore. One game leads to another and to another, etc.

To any reasonable person the above statement would be a non-nonsensical statement! I've played chess my entire life, and I have not bought a single lottery ticket, or went to casino a single day of my life... yet you would like any reasonable person like me to believe that one absolutely unrelated thing can lead to another, and you insist on it providing no other evidence than your personal experience.

We should honestly say that gambling is unrelated to any particular competitive games. Competition comes rather natural to human beings in our environment. Games are only one vehicle for such competition.

Gamblers don't need games to gamble. There's plenty of opportunities in stock market that our church so avidly invests in.

[fccool]

[SivartM]

FYI egg-whites which I consume contain less cholesterol than the nuts that you eat. I do eat plenty of fruits too . Sorry but... you have very little ground to stand on there.

Except that dietary cholesterol doesn't correlate with blood cholesterol... and nuts don't contain cholesterol. And nuts are less likely to get recalled because of salmonella contamination.

Anyway...

I think that the whole anti-chess-and-games thing should be understood as strictly historical. In Pathfinders we used to not be allowed to play Uno on the bus because someone driving by would think we were playing a gambling card game. Obviously, this is one thing which does not translate well to modern society. Maybe it would be better applied to casinos or something.

[Gerr]

Is there something true then about chess that is not true now that makes it historical?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

FYI egg-whites which I consume contain less cholesterol than the nuts that you eat. I do eat plenty of fruits too . Sorry but... you have very little ground to stand on there. [/quote']

Well, I'm glad to hear that. But if eggs are that good, why are leaving off the yolk?

[Gerr]

Except that dietary cholesterol doesn't correlate with blood cholesterol...

There IS a rough correlation. Where the rule fails is in hereditary hypercholesterolemia.

[fccool]

Well, I'm glad to hear that. But if eggs are that good, why are leaving off the yolk?

For the same reason you leave the shell of the nuts, and peal pineapples . You don't have to eat the bad parts. You can just dispose of them and eat the good stuff.