2 Tenets of Atheism

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I'm having trouble buying your definitions here,Rich.If atheism believes that there is no God, that IS a religious opinion,or view.It,by definition, fits the broader requirements of most dictionaries under the canopy of religion.

If atheism is a religion then theism is a religion. What church do theists go to?

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

If you're using the word (religion)in it's most restrictive sense then atheism should be classified as an anti-religion, since it holds that religion is untrue.

The only thing atheism says is that there is no god or gods. It takes a lot more than that to be classified as a religion. Some atheists are anti-religious and others are not.

Now it's your turn to look up a definition in the dictionary,Rich. I was citing areligious sources which

would include atheistic belief models as religious.You can argue that you don't believe that inclusion is valid but I don't necessarily have to accept your redefinition of the dictionary use of the term.What is your definition of religion? Or what determines a religion?

[cardw]

Now it's your turn to look up a definition in the dictionary,Rich. I was citing areligious sources which would include atheistic belief models as religious.You can argue that you don't believe that inclusion is valid but I don't necessarily have to accept your redefinition of the dictionary use of the term. What is your definition of religion? Or what determines a religion?

I can't evaluate what you are claiming if you don't name your source or post evidence of your definition.

And then you have the audacity to ask me to look up YOUR SOURCE for crying out loud.

[John317]

Quote:

What is religion? There are many definitions for the term "religion" in common usage. On this web site, we define it very broadly, in order to include the greatest number of belief systems: "Religion is any specific system of belief about deity, often involving rituals, a code of ethics, and a philosophy of life." Thus we include here all of the great monotheistic religions, Eastern religions; Neopagan religions; a wide range of other faith groups, spiritual paths, and ethical systems; and beliefs about the existence of God(s) and Goddess(es). We recognize that most people define "religion" in a much more exclusive manner.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm

Here is the argument from one atheistic website against the notion that atheism is a religion:

Quote:

Let me be very clear at the outset of this post: atheism is not a religion. It has no core dogma, no "sacred" texts, no leaders, no rituals, asserts no supernatural entities, requires no faith of any sort, and so on. Quite simply, atheism is in no way a religion.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2010/02/atheism-as-religion.html

I don't care if people wnat to acknowledge atheism as a religion or not, but the fact is that everyone worships something or someone, and the botom line for me is that religion is all about who and what we worship. Some people worship their spouse, children, or cars or wealth or human reasoning or science. It's whatever people put as #1 in their lives and base their lives and their values on. It obviously doesn't have to be "organized" or have a formal code of ethics or a supernatural being or any of the other things mentioned in the above online websites.

Cardw, would you agree that communism is a type of religion, even though it is atheistic?

[Overaged]

You are basically saying that all other views other than your own are claims.

This is hypocritical.

Of course; how could it be any other way?

Actually, what I have said is that the view you are presenting is just a series of claims, with references (not evidence) and that the religion of atheism is where you are forming your opinions from.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You are basically saying that all other views other than your own are claims.

This is hypocritical.

Of course; how could it be any other way?

Actually, what I have said is that the view you are presenting is just a series of claims, with references (not evidence) and that the religion of atheism is where you are forming your opinions from.

So what would you qualify as evidence?

[Bravus]

I think we're through the looking-glass now, Richard:

Quote:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

[cardw]

Cardw, would you agree that communism is a type of religion, even though it is atheistic?

[cardw]

I don't care if people wnat to acknowledge atheism as a religion or not, but the fact is that everyone worships something or someone, and the botom line for me is that religion is all about who and what we worship. Some people worship their spouse, children, or cars or wealth or human reasoning or science. It's whatever people put as #1 in their lives and base their lives and their values on. It obviously doesn't have to be "organized" or have a formal code of ethics or a supernatural being or any of the other things mentioned in the above online websites.

Definitions serve the purpose of clarity of thought. They are not for proving a point. You can broaden any definition to serve your purpose.

Is theism a religion. NO It simply means you believe in a god or gods. It ends there. Atheism simply means you don't believe in a god or gods. It ends there.

If you don't happen to collect stamps do I call you a non-stamp collector and call that a hobby? Of course not. It's ridiculous. Or do I call you a non-race car driver and say you are a race car driver because by saying you don't race cars you are talking about racing so therefore you must be a race car driver?

You are bending definitions for no purpose that I can see other than to claim you are right about atheism being a religion.

Even if atheism is a religion, what does that prove?

It ends up being this word game.

Atheism is against religion.

But atheism is a religion.

So atheism is against itself.

Therefore atheism is wrong. There is a god. Christians win. Yeah!!!

You have accomplished nothing because "proving" atheism wrong doesn't prove there is a god. It is just word games.

[cardw]

I think we're through the looking-glass now, Richard:

Quote:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

LOL, very appropriate quote.

[Overaged]

So atheism is against itself.

Well said. Atheism is the kind of religion that hides under the cloak of "no values," yet if it wasn't for atheistic values, you would have nothing to say here.

[cardw]

Well said. Atheism is the kind of religion that hides under the cloak of "no values," yet if it wasn't for atheistic values, you would have nothing to say here.

Well maybe you can tell me what these atheistic values are that I have been promoting.

So far I have been promoting the Golden rule, reason, and empathy. Maybe those are anti Christian values after all.

[John317]

Cardw, would you agree that communism is a type of religion, even though it is atheistic?

Originally Posted By: cardw

Communism has nothing to do with atheism.

Are you saying it is just coincidental that all of the communist countries have been militantly atheistic and that all of the leading spokesmen have been atheistic?

Are you aware that Marxism/Leninism/Maoism are all based on dialetical materialism, which denies God's existence?

Please describe the communism that you're referring to. I'm talking about the "communism" that has been advocated and practiced in history, in such places as the USSR, Cuba, Eastern Block countries, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea, etc. Believe me, it is not merely coincidental that all of these nations were or are anti-Christian. You'll notice that one of the first things all of these communist governments did once they gained power was to suppress or control the church and other competing religions. Communism can never recognize a power superior to itself. Communists believe that all rights come from the party and the state, not from God.

As for the relationship between communism and atheism, Leon Trotsky said, "I am a dialectical materialist and therefore an atheist." If there is one thing Trotsky understood, it was communist ideology and its foundations.

Can you show me a dialectical materialist who is not an atheist?

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is actually based on a Christian form of government. Karl Marx referenced Christian values as one of the sources of his ideas around a communal government. He converted to Lutheranism at one time.

What Christian form is that? Any actual examples from history?

It is true that when he was in high school, Marx claimed to be a Christian, and of course he'd studied the Bible. He wrote an essay at that time about what it means to be united with Christ. But shortly after that, Marx underwent a profound change in his thinking, and he began writing poetry in praise of Lucifer. It is a well known fact that he changed dramatically shortly after he started attending the university. He believed in God and Lucifer, but Marx changed his allegience from Christ to Lucifer.

He got the ideal of people living together in equality from the Bible. But the difference is that in the road to communism-- in which the state no longer exists-- there is a great deal of force and violence that is necessary. This is completely contrary to Christian values.

[doug yowell]

You have accomplished nothing because "proving" atheism wrong doesn't prove there is a god. It is just word games.

Are you rambling? If atheism is "proven" wrong it, by definition,"proves" there is a God.Ya can't have it both ways,Rich, unless your definitions are considerably more flexible than everyday useage. Arguing that atheism is not a religion without offering any linguistic evidence why the definition cannot fit is kinda begging the question, don't ya think? I just (audastically)offered the definitions I found in the Webster, Wikipedia,Mirriam-Webster Dictionaries.Then I asked for your definition. You haven't responded with one. It's hard to have a constructive discussion if were talking(uh, typing)past each other.

[doug yowell]

[http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm

[cardw]

Arguing that atheism is not a religion without offering any linguistic evidence why the definition cannot fit is kinda begging the question, don't ya think?

[Bravus]

The problem is not with the definition of atheism, it's with the definition of religion.

[Bravus]

Is capitalism a religion?

[Overaged]

One has to wonder why atheists argue so vehemently that atheism is [allegedly] not a religion. As I said earlier, cardw is unable to show why this is wrong; he can only say it is wrong, by mimicking what some atheist web sites say for THEIR definition of it.

The core value of atheism is that there is no God; and all the related ideas/values that this one would entail.

cardw is also unable to show us any kind of "rule" that says a religion has to comprise of some "deity" to worship before it can be classed as a religon, but there are quite a few religions which worship things other than a deity...in the case of atheists, they worship "reason." That's all they talk about.

[cardw]

Please describe the communism that you're referring to. I'm talking about the "communism" that has been advocated and practiced in history, in such places as the USSR, Cuba, Eastern Block countries, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea, etc. Believe me, it is not merely coincidental that all of these nations were or are anti-Christian. You'll notice that one of the first things all of these communist governments did once they gained power was to suppress or control the church and other competing religions. Communism can never recognize a power superior to itself. Communists believe that all rights come from the party and the state, not from God.

[Bravus]

One has to wonder why atheists argue so vehemently that atheism is [allegedly] not a religion.

Conversely, one has to wonder why theists put so much energy into arguing that atheism *is* a religion. I mean, they like religion, so surely if atheism was a religion they would consider that to be a good thing (even if it's the 'wrong' religion)?

It just seems like such a moot point to me. If atheism is a religion, what follows? What does that entail? If it's not, again, what follows?

There are no consequences to the debate, so it's a semantic waste of time.

[Bravus]

(on communism, it might be worth noting that in Russia, for example, the revolution supplanted the czars who had claimed to rule by divine right and had strong links with the Orthodox church. The role of the church in propping up oppressive regimes for milennia is not irrelevant to the attitude of the communist party to religion. My point is that very complex arguments and historical trends are being massively oversimplified in these discussions.)

[Overaged]

That's true about the "over-simplification;" but as to whether or not atheism is a religion or not, your post does prove one thing. There is a very noticable effort by atheists to not be seen as a religon. But try as they might, they cannot limit the definition thereof by limiting it to "worshipping some deity." That simply is not true; and it is a matter of truth. That's why I brought it up in the first place on this thread. There are historical as well as current examples, for eg., of people who worship "reason." If your comment was meant to deny that atheism's main value is that "there is no God," and to deny that "reason" is their major object of pursuit and practice in life, then I, for one, would like some evidence to show exactly why that is "wrong." I highly doubt you can come up with "semantics" good enough to do that.

[Bravus]

Um, I didn't make an argument at all, I said the debate is pointless.

[Overaged]

And you say that that is not an "argument?" Sounds like some pretty fancy "semantics" to me.

[Bravus]