Rosie Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Regarding the visual aspect of male sexuality? http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/Archives.asp Anyone else been following this series of interviews on Focus on the Family? I really got a blessing, and my daughter, (whose husband is addicted to pornography) got a reson behind the "WHY". But she feels so helpless, her husband is in denial about his addiction, says all men "do it", it's normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Dobson and other Christian groups are rather unbalanced about this. They should be spending MORE effort on violence and poverity than they do on sexuality. Why don't they? Because their audience isn't doing violence and poverity - but they are doing sex. So he has more guilt-trip potential with sex. So it is better at manipulating people to send him money. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 (tagging on -- NOT directed at Bevin!) -- I'm reacting to Rosie's statement about, "But ... her husband is in denial about his addiction, says all men "do it", it's normal." The visual thing is a load of poppycock and excuse-making, that is, if/when tied to a certain look or image, because it can be retrained. For example: my mate tells me he finds ME sexy and exciting and he is literally turned OFF by typical "sexy" images of women such as seen in films, on catalogs and magazine covers, etc. They literally gross him out because to him they are "unreal". I am NOT making this up, seriously. YES, he is visually stimulated but my POINT is ... the visual cues can be retrained to one's partner. I can't hold a candle, "looks"-wise, to those women in magazines, and I know it. I don't see anything about MY body that is sexy or that would turn on a man. But my mate sees it, because he loves me and I am attractive to him, flaws and all. Males saying they "need" to see a certain airbrushed bimbo standard of "beauty" to get turned on, therefore, get NO slack from me. Off to the doctor with you then, and get your head on straight because (a) real women don't look like that (even the models get airbrushed and Photoshopped out the wazoo); ( women who do look *sorta* like that (the models, before airbrushing) won't look like that forever; and © you aren't all that to demand it of another so get over yourselves already. An addiction is an addiction is an addiction -- time to grow up, doff the masturbatory fantasies of a 14 year old, and be a real man for a change. Stop dumping that trip on your spouse to be something she isn't, or to find her worth in the shallowest pond; you start being something you ought. The end, amen. Anything else is just excuse making. Hey, I can make some great excuses for sex with Satan, too. The point is, we can sit around making excuses for sin or we can deal with it and not mollycoddle ourselves in it. If I'm going to sit around rationalizing my sins it won't be long before I'm nosedeep in them again like a pig in mud. Same with the menfolk who want to have pity parties over how they can't help themselves with the porn. You're no exception. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2005 Preach it, Sister Nico! I heartily agree, from the masculine side. I do sometimes wish I could get my beloved to see in herself the beauty I see in her... But yeah, I do think that saying males are visually oriented is (a) a generalisation, useful but not true for everyone (and some females will also be visually oriented) and ( as Nico said, saying we are visually oriented is just a starting place - it's about where that orientation is directed. It's about responsibility, but even more than that it's about love. (And incidentally, ladies, even if you don't feel so beautiful, we hope you'll leave the lights on for us... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 AMEN, AMEN and again AMEN Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Yeah, Nic. I tend to agree with the porno comments. What was said on this interview was that men, when confronted with a visual will retain it in their memory bank and it can pop up at any time, unvoluntarily. If a beautiful woman with a great body walks into the room, he WILL notice and file her away-forever. Men can, evidently, train themselves to not dwell on the sexual aspect of a great body, (lust) but that's the way men (and a few women) are wired. If a man looks on porno, even unintentionally, like walking by it on a newstand, or pop ups on a computer, or even sexy scenes in a movie, it stays there, too. Men have to be super careful what they put before their eyes, for they will retain it always and have to battle the images and struggle for the mastery. The porno? I'm at a loss on how to advise my daughter. He's got tapes and mags. When she found them about a year ago(and tossed them out), he denied that they were his. Then it was the cable bill (that he hid) with $200. worth of racy movies that he ordered up. She turned the cable off. Now there's more tapes, (she found one in the vcr-he denied putting it there) The only people living there are boys, aged 2 & 9 months, my daughter and him. Who's watching it? Duh. Then the exuses-all men do it. Well I know that's not true. Any advice would be great. Short of the "grow up" comment, I have no idea what to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2005 I wonder whether perhaps there's a way they can discuss it together a little less confrontationally. Yes, he definitely needs to own up and stop lying. But in my humble opinion she needs to act more like a wife and less like a mother: part of helping him grow up is not treating him like a child. If she can talk to him about his sexuality and their sexual life, and how this material effects her and makes her feel, rather than taking on the responsibility to police it, it's more likely for him to think about changing. She can never cut off all the possible avenues to get hold of the stuff, and that's more likely to just drive him 'underground' where he keeps more secrets from her - never healthy in a marriage. I'm not talking about condoning, I'm talking about what's the best - and the most scriptural - strategy for dealing with the issue. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted March 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 17, 2005 I think you've got it, Bravus. If she becomes more sensual and feminine in her approach to him [during their private times together after the kids are asleep], telling him how much she enjoys his love-making -- and say nothing at all about his "problem" -- perhaps their relationship together will gradually begin to change for the better. She isn't his mother, after all. [And this is something that she might find difficult to learn from you, Rosie -- just because you are "mother."] Her orientation has previously been toward "fixing" something on him. Whereas it probably should be toward "changing her approach" to partially accommodate to his needs. My opinion about men's use of porno is that by doing so they are not required to be actively making love. They're only allowing themselves to drift along in a totally passive mode, fantasizing all the while. It takes no effort on their part whatsoever. They don't risk rejection; they don't have to be creative; they don't have to worry about satisfying anyone else; they just follow where their hormones lead. It's recreation for him. [And just like some other types of recreation, it doesn't need to break up a marriage unless it starts occupying all his time and energy.] Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 There is a VERY wide range of sexual behaviour in stable marriages around the world and over the years. The christian church has always tried to draw ludicrously narrow limits on what is 'proper', ever since virginity and celebacy got touted as important and virtuous by some early christian politicians. The main-stream public USA society is also ludicrously narrow about this. The nett effect is pretty awful. The other thing to remember about men's (and some women's) sexuality is that variety and naughtiness are important. Gentle repetitive 'feminity' can get VERY boring. Men need a certain level of adrenaline in their lives. I still remember a 30's woman who came into the ER while I was doing an EMT rotation there with a very rapid heart beat. After fixing it the doctor's were asking her and her husband about when it started, and she laughed and said "we were watching TV and the program came to an end, and I asked my husband what he wanted to do, and he said 'well, there is still another 10 minutes before the kids get home'". /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Quote: I think you've got it, Bravus. If she becomes more sensual and feminine in her approach to him [during their private times together after the kids are asleep], telling him how much she enjoys his love-making -- and say nothing at all about his "problem" -- perhaps their relationship together will gradually begin to change for the better. I disagree. This kind of viewpoint totally makes the wife responsible or to blame for her husband's refusal to grow up and I refuse to buy it, condone it, or countenance it. Like I said, NO slack. I refuse to accept anything that makes it the wife's responsibility -- hence fault, and problem. It's HIS and his alone. It has NOTHING to do with how sensual and feminine she is or is not, nor whether she mollycoddles and strokes his ego constantly like some doting granny. Like you said, Jeannie, she is NOT HIS MOTHER. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted March 18, 2005 Author Share Posted March 18, 2005 My daughter is not acting like his mother. She has low self esteem and has explained to him how this makes her feel. Now the blame is hers because she's not "meeting his needs"? To think that my daughter needs to become sexier or more exiting to help him overcome his addiction is ludicrous. He's meeting his own needs just fine, on his own. And to think that spending $200. in one month on this [censored] is just "recreational" is also way off base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Quote: She has low self esteem and has explained to him how this makes her feel. They need professional marriage counciling. Not because he spends $200/month on pictures he could get for free from the internet or for $30/month from the cable TV company but because they are clearly not dealing with the elephant in the living room. He should not be disregarding her low self-esteem issues, and they both probably need guidance in sorting the issue out. This has nothing to do with pornography. It could just as easily be model trains or work-a-holism. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 I would agree with bevin's last point. Counselling is a good start. Especially as this man seems so in denial! One of the things I am so wary of with the vast commentary in Christendom and secular psychology is the grouping of men into certain groups of behaviour. There are times when we have to realise dealing with such issues is on a case by case basis. Through various means men can be exposed to a lot of pornography either voluntarliy or otherwise. Anyone with a hotmail account say amen! But there are a lot of women who I know are just as affected by visual imagery of men (and women!). Indeed there are couples who watch pornography together in whatever capacity. Truth is men/women can have the most attractive partner who gives them nothing but attention both physically and/or emotionally yet still wish to look at imagery of professional (or amateur - read non airbrushed)models. Such a complex issue can only be solved by looking at the case in hand and asking the right questions. Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Quote: My daughter is not acting like his mother. She has low self esteem and has explained to him how this makes her feel. Now the blame is hers because she's not "meeting his needs"? Just to clarify, Rosie, I did not say she was acting like his mother (if it sounded that way I do apologize). Nor did I say the blame should be hers -- ever -- in fact, I said the opposite: I said it should NOT be packaged to seem like her fault for not meeting his needs. That was my chief objection to what Jeannie said (though nothing personal toward Jeannie of course). Quote: To think that my daughter needs to become sexier or more exciting to help him overcome his addiction is ludicrous. I completely agree. He married her, not his hand or his magazines. Quote: And to think that spending $200. in one month on this [censored] is just "recreational" is also way off base. That's a waste of good money. If he is going to throw perfectly good money away destroying himself he could at least do some good with it and give it to the unemployed or the homeless. What a freaking waste. But I can't judge. It was not very long ago for me that I was led completely by Satan operating on a certain portion of my anatomy and its connection to the pleasure centers of the brain. Like any other drug, the bondage is extremely powerful. This man is in bondage as surely as if he were locked in a prison of six-foot-thick lead walls, wearing thick chains over his entire body and unable to move an inch. I feel pure contempt for the addiction, but the one caught in it needs our compassion like any other poor wretch who is owned and operated by something other than himself. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 18, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 18, 2005 OK, let me just clarify exactly what I was NOT saying, and then try to gracefully withdraw: I was NOT saying that Rosie's daughter is responsible, or that it's her 'fault', or anything even close to that. I was saying that it's possible, judging from what has been said, that she is *taking on* the responsibility which is his, by policing his actions. *He* is responsible for policing his actions: by throwing out the videos and magazines and cutting off the cable, *she* is accepting the responsibility. Her role, as Nico has said so passionately, is to make him responsible. That means working with *him* to make the decision to change or get help. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted March 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2005 Rosie, please forgive me. I'm afraid it was my post to which you objected. I totally agree that $200/month is "over the top." That certainly makes it look like an addiction, all right. Only your daughter is in a position to decide what to do from here. All I was doing was commenting from a distance. A very l-o-n-g distance. Sorry. Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 We're ALL commenting from a distance ... I'm sure there are things seen close-up that we just can't even begin to factor in. In any case, I'm very sorry your daughter and SIL are having to go through this, Rosie. I will remember them both in prayer. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 I asked for advice, and then snipped at people when it was given. I'm so sorry. Thank you all for your words, it's hard for me to convey what's going on in this family, and I feel helpless to help her deal with it. She left him last night, evidently there was a big blowup about the porno tapes she found. He said that it was all her fault, took her house keys and her checkbook, so she packed the kids up and left. It's crazy to me. I've been married for almost 18 years and have no idea how to advise her nor how to help in this regard. My husband has never talked to me the way hers does to her. Marriage counseling would be great, but he will not go. It's been suggested before and he just says it's all her problem and he is fine and has no problems. At this point, I think God is the only one who can help this marriage, so prayers are much appreciated. Thank you Nico, Jeannie and Bravus for your words. So sorry again for venting on you guys. Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Rosie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} (that's a cyber hug in case you're not familiar with writing them that way) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 Thanks Nico, That's just what I needed the most from a sister in Christ. Have a blessed Sabbath, Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Quote: ... I think God is the only one who can help this marriage , so prayers are much appreciated. He is technically the only One..., but (as you know) it takes three to make a marriage work! Porno is totally destructive to marriages, period! It is addictive to the extreme. Been there, done that and nothing good came out of it. I was introduced to Playboy when I was about ten years old. For the next 20 years of my life I had no struggle with it, i.e., I enjoyed it as a lifestyle. Back then my wife and I watched it (now and then) until I started going to church. Then came the struggle to stop....That struggle lasted another "x" years. It was a cycle of sin and repentance - sin and repentance. In a nutshell God eventually backed off from me and my physical and mental health began to take a turn for the worst. Finally I made a deal with God. I said, "God, I'll give you this junk in exchange for sleep, health & sanity." Since then the overwhelming urge to view this garbage is gone, but I'm also aware that just one peek could start the whole blooming thing over again. I hope that this marriage works, but I have feeling God is going to have to allow this man to go to the edge....Maybe then he will see his destructive habit? If so, God will rescue him. If not...? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted March 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I asked for advice, and then snipped at people when it was given. I'm so sorry. Marriage counseling would be great, but he will not go. It's been suggested before and he just says it's all her problem and he is fine and has no problems. Rose <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No apology needed. You're going through great turmoil right now. We've all had times like that. But [here's some more free advice --worth just what you're paying for it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />]. She should go to marriage counseling by herself. My counselor told me it's always the sick partner who refuses counseling. But in that case the "well" partner must initiate the counseling. She'll certainly receive help from a professional in knowing how to deal with Husb. And possibly--just possibly--the counselor will give her feedback in helping her know how to get Husband to come into counseling too. At the least, she'll get help in how to deal with the situation. [Now. I'll try to keep quiet from now on.] Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony! Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Quote: Quote: I think you've got it, Bravus. If she becomes more sensual and feminine in her approach to him [during their private times together after the kids are asleep], telling him how much she enjoys his love-making -- and say nothing at all about his "problem" -- perhaps their relationship together will gradually begin to change for the better. I disagree. This kind of viewpoint totally makes the wife responsible or to blame for her husband's refusal to grow up and I refuse to buy it, condone it, or countenance it. Like I said, NO slack. I refuse to accept anything that makes it the wife's responsibility -- hence fault, and problem. It's HIS and his alone. It has NOTHING to do with how sensual and feminine she is or is not, nor whether she mollycoddles and strokes his ego constantly like some doting granny. Like you said, Jeannie, she is NOT HIS MOTHER. southern rock group Atlanta Rhythm Section - song "Imaginary Lover" lyrics from about 1977 Imaginary lovers Never turn you down When all the others turn you away They're around It's my private pleasure Midnight fantasy Someone to share my Wildest dreams with me Imaginary lover you're mine anytime Imaginary lovers, oh yeah When ordinary lovers Don't feel what you feel And real-life situations lose their thrill Imagination's unreal Imaginary lover, imaginary lover You're mine anytime Imaginary lovers never disagree They always care They're always there when You need satisfaction guaranteed Imaginary lover, imaginary lover You're mine all the time My imaginary lover You're mine anytime (bold supplied by poster) 'Nuff said? Well... fantasy women never say no, they don't have headaches, they always accept you and make you feel like a god. They always enjoy sex are and are not afraid to admit they enjoy it - and they tell you what they like and want. Sorry women, but this satisfies and fulfills men emotionally and mentally, not just physically. dat anthony playin' de debil's advocate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 Yeah, I remember that song. Quote: fantasy women never say no, they don't have headaches, they always accept you and make you feel like a god. Can't argue with that. Quote: They always enjoy sex are and are not afraid to admit they enjoy it - and they tell you what they like and want. LOL. How can an imaginary woman tell you what they want? Wouldn't it be better for a real woman to tell you what they want? Porno is all about what the dreamer himself wants, not about what a woman, imaginary or otherwise, wants!!!! Quote: Sorry women, but this satisfies and fulfills men emotionally and mentally, not just physically. Once again, if an imaginary partner is all men need to be satisfied, fulfilled emotionally and mentally and physically, what on earth did God create Eve for? Adam had all components necessary to satisfy himself. Good grief. I know at least one man that prefers a real live woman to a figment any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted March 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Good grief. I know at least one man that prefers a real live woman to a figment any day. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Fortunately the one you know is not the only one, Rosie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.