What Women Should Know About Men,...

[Rosie]

[Rosie]

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She should go to marriage counseling by herself. My counselor told me it's always the sick partner who refuses counseling. But in that case the "well" partner must initiate the counseling. She'll certainly receive help from a professional in knowing how to deal with Husb. And possibly--just possibly--the counselor will give her feedback in helping her know how to get Husband to come into counseling too.

At the least, she'll get help in how to deal with the situation.

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Yeah, I do agree. But the the money situation makes counseling harder. She has not a penny to her name. I went to a Christian bookstore and picked up a copy of "Every Heart Restored" which deals with the subject of wives dealing with pornography and betrayal. It is written by someone who has been through the experience, and shares many real life stories. At least she will know she's not alone.

Thanks for understanding about my snippy state.

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[Anthony!]

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Yeah, I remember that song.

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fantasy women never say no, they don't have headaches, they always accept you and make you feel like a god.

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Can't argue with that.

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They always enjoy sex are and are not afraid to admit they enjoy it - and they tell you what they like and want.

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LOL. How can an imaginary woman tell you what they want? Wouldn't it be better for a real woman to tell you what they want? Porno is all about what the dreamer himself wants, not about what a woman, imaginary or otherwise, wants!!!!

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Sorry women, but this satisfies and fulfills men emotionally and mentally, not just physically.

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Once again, if an imaginary partner is all men need to be satisfied, fulfilled emotionally and mentally and physically, what on earth did God create Eve for? Adam had all components necessary to satisfy himself.

Good grief. I know at least one man that prefers a real live woman to a figment any day.

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Sorry for the confusion... I forgot to make the transition from fantasy to reality obvious...

It is in the mind of the beholder that the fantasy woman is such as she is... men wish for the fantasy woman or go for an affair because of the lack of fulfillment mentally, emotionally and physically in their reality woman.

When a man spends year after year after year in doing everything right in love in a Christian marriage (even following Dr. James Dobson's counsel in 'What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women') and the woman is still a frigid fish who robs him of his esteem and manhood, what can he do to survive? It just about becomes a figurative matter of life and death...

[Rosie]

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Good grief. I know at least one man that prefers a real live woman to a figment any day.

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Fortunately the one you know is not the only one, Rosie

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Fortunately, esp. for all the REAL women out there!

[Rosie]

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Sorry for the confusion... I forgot to make the transition from fantasy to reality obvious...

It is in the mind of the beholder that the fantasy woman is such as she is... men wish for the fantasy woman or go for an affair because of the lack of fulfillment mentally, emotionally and physically in their reality woman.

When a man spends year after year after year in doing everything right in love in a Christian marriage (even following Dr. James Dobson's counsel in 'What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women') and the woman is still a frigid fish who robs him of his esteem and manhood, what can he do to survive? It just about becomes a figurative matter of life and death...

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Yeah, now I've got you. That's also sad, and not what God had in mind for marriage at all. The bad thing is, instead of working at nurturing and pleasing a real live woman, it's much, much easier to use this excuse of "she's a cold fish" to justify what God has strickly forbidden. Man can play the harlot too-no?

Why, one would wonder, is the wife a cold fish in the first place? Cuz hubby is too busy with "other things" to take the time to nurture and warm her up?

[Nan]

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Why, one would wonder, is the wife a cold fish in the first place? Cuz hubby is too busy with "other things" to take the time to nurture and warm her up?

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Rosie I meet many women in my practice who have no interest in sex. I do not often go deeply into the background for this, but I am sure their attitude must be frustrating to their husbands.

[Rosie]

My daughter read it, and also thanks you for sharing.

This man, my SIL, who is 24 years old, has been in two rollover car-wrecks in this past year, and walked away from both without a scratch. God only knows what it will take to reach him, but it seems He is not done with him yet.

He rejects God and my daughter is turning more and more back to God for all this. So I cling to the promise that all will work out for His glory somehow.

Rose

[Rosie]

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Rosie I meet many women in my practice who have no interest in sex. I do not often go deeply into the background for this, but I am sure their attitude must be frustrating to their husbands.

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Oh, I can understand this. My only point is it's easy to use the "cold fish" as an excuse to sin, have an affair, etc. One would wonder why a man would marry a cold fish?

Seriously?

Or is there a change that comes about once the woman has the man trapped or something?

Many women are hormonal, I am a prime example of a cold fish at times. After childbirth and during nursing I said 'no' way more than I said 'yes'. Some men could consider that an excuse to find release elsewhere, yet my husband understood and evidently knew I would recuperate.

That's love, I guess?

[Pockey]

Hi Rose,

I am thankful that your daughter is turning more and more to God. What a blessing. Since she is turning to God, she obviously is wise, and so I am sure that there are many good qualities in her husband despite his shortcomings (which we all have), because she probably wouldn't have chosen him otherwise. I can relate to your SIL, because I too was hooked on pornography before. And if anyone underestimates this addiction, they mine as well underestimate the addiction to alcohol, benzodiazepenes, and opiates. I also was in a near fatal crash, this one involving a police car landing sideways on top of my car, and I walked away unscathed. Even through my despicable past, Jesus still continues to have a great plan in my life, if I continue to seek Him with all my heart (Jeremiah 29:11-13). So I pray for your daughter and SIL. I know He has a plan for them. He said so.

Peace,

Sid

[Nan]

Rosie, I see a lot of women and most are speaking of something more general than when they are "hormonal". No it is not an excuse for men to sin, and I am not condemning the women. They might have reasons dating back to childhood - been brought up in a home where sex was looked on as dirty, have suffered some form of abuse, or just have a very low libido - whatever the reasons, there is strain created in the marraige.

[Rosie]

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Even through my despicable past, Jesus still continues to have a great plan in my life, if I continue to seek Him with all my heart (Jeremiah 29:11-13). So I pray for your daughter and SIL. I know He has a plan for them. He said so.

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I think we can safely say we've all done some pretty bad things and it IS amazing that God can still change these broken and filthy vessels to use for his glory! Thanks for the reminder and the hope.

[bevin]

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One would wonder why a man would marry a cold fish?

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Because, given the way the christian church treats sex, it is immoral to determine in advance that the woman involved IS a cold fish.

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

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When a man spends year after year after year in doing everything right in love in a Christian marriage ... and the woman is still a frigid fish who robs him of his esteem and manhood, what can he do to survive? It just about becomes a figurative matter of life and death...

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And when the woman is NOT a frigid fish but the man is an insatiable self-centered pig who simply WON'T be satisfied with anything less than his airbrushed fantasy [censored] toy that he can first ravish in his imagination, and then reject for being morally "dirty" enough to be ravished, what then?

I mean give me a break, this problem is as old as the first century of Christendom, when Paul had to write in his epistles to married couples NOT to use the marriage privileges to "defile" one another. Men (and sometimes, yes, women) wanting what they cannot have is the real problem here. Where I come from that's called DELUSIONAL THINKING and being responsible involves seeking medical (or other appropriate) treatment for it, rather than insisting everyone else around them adjust accordingly.

Going back to what you said though, Anthony ... what if the problem is that the man has been trying to be something his wife doesn't want or need, something that doesn't take her individuality into account? Trying to be "the perfect Christian husband" sounds like a one-size-fits-all NON-solution to me. If I were the unhappy wife in your scenario, I would not want a "perfect Christian husband" ™. I would want a man who loved me and listened to me and cared about MY needs and feelings instead of what he is "supposed" to be in order to checklist himself "off the hook" for having to really care and really be involved with me.

But that's just me ... I'm not in one of these situations so I'm just speculating how I would feel. I have been in pockets of "lovelessness" or friction in marriage before, though, so I'm not entirely without perspective on the subject.

[Bravus]

Part of the problem here is the 'blame game' and language that ascribes fault - 'cold fish' and 'insatiable self-centred pig' are the examples that come to mind!

I'm not going to go into a lot of personal detail, but my beloved and I have spent our whole marriage in a situation that we find it healthier to describe as 'significant differences in level of desire'. And we're the happiest married couple we know, literally.

If it's possible to get beyond blaming, and instead work toward solutions - in love, always and only in love - then none of these issues needs to kill, or even hurt, the marriage.

[Nicodema]

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Part of the problem here is the 'blame game' and language that ascribes fault - 'cold fish' and 'insatiable self-centred pig' are the examples that come to mind!

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Oh, I know that bit ... I was just making a point by forging a counter-point to the epithet of "frigid fish" was all. I wasn't suggesting in any sense that playing the blame game and calling names was the solution!

p.s. it is good to hear a note of HOPE from someone who has "been there" about different levels of desire. keep giving the trumpet that CERTAIN sound! That's what people need to hear.

[LifeHiscost]

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Then the excuses-all men do it. Well I know that's not true.

Any advice would be great. Short of the "grow up" comment, I have no idea what to say.

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Nico will probably as a woman, get a lot of naysayers from men who will ask how a woman can know what a man's experience can be. While I believe the straight testimony she gave, what I believe was not taken into consideration was that men or women are never in control of themselves. They/we are either controlled by the prince of darkness or the Lord of light. It depends upon who we ask into our life to do for us that which we are powerless to do on our own.

[:"red"] "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" [/] Romans 6:16 KJV

[:"red"] "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [/] Ephesians 6:12 KJV

Of course you're never going to get the natural man to admit this. Hopefully the Bible believing Christian would.

And the non-believing Christian is an oxymoron.

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Well... fantasy women never say no, they don't have headaches, they always accept you and make you feel like a god. They always enjoy sex are and are not afraid to admit they enjoy it - and they tell you what they like and want. Sorry women, but this satisfies and fulfills men emotionally and mentally, not just physically.

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[:"red"] "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. " [/] Gal 5:17 NASB

Personal application! My spouse became too ill for us to enjoy the pleasures of days gone by. I had a choice. To continue with the libido of past days by seeking outer influences or suffer constant warfare with my own "needs".

Or a third option. As a believer that what God promises He is also willing to fulfill, for those who rely on them.

[:"red"] "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." [/] 1 Cor 10:13 NKJV

Guess what. Our Father has proven Himself to be true to His promise. Once again, and continueing.

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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But that's just me ... I'm not in one of these situations so I'm just speculating how I would feel. I have been in pockets of "lovelessness" or friction in marriage before, though, so I'm not entirely without perspective on the subject.

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One of the reasons why I and my spouse have found an almost idyllic relationship for the last 25 years is that when God gives advice to the female of the species, we let that part of the advice be applied as the woman understands it. When His advice is for the male, then the same principle applies, the man decides the understanding. The only thing that then breaks the peace is the partner that doesn't think God knows what He's talking about.

[:"red"] "Those who love your law have great peace and do not stumble" [/] Psalms 119:165 NLT

Lift Jesus up!!

[JtsLes]

Ok.....I can see this is going to be a long post, but as a first time "poster", I offer my humble apologies in advance.

I stumbled on this thread and I decided to join the forum so that I could respond, since the subject of personal

relationships should be of interest to all of us.

Like Rosie, I listened to Dr. James Dobson's recent three day series "What Women Should Know About Men", and I have to say that I find Focus on the Family very balanced. They rarely talk about sexuality, but on the other hand they don't avoid talking about it at times either. The family is the lowest common denominator of what holds a nation together and I admire the effort that is made to support families in a practical way all over the world.

In the past, Focus on the Family has also invited Dr. Emerson Eggerichs to speak on several occasions on "Love and Respect".

http://www.loveandrespect.com/

A third related source is Dr. Laura Schlessinger's book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands".

http://www.drlaurashop.com/product.php?id=96&PHPSESSID=fa4520538d2449a46b7936c2b47a1fa6

While these messages clearly are not the Gospel, yet they are similar in that, some find such material offensive and most people quickly learn to love or hate them. A person's own experience and background will dictate how these messages are received. In all honesty, when I listened to or read the materials previously mentioned, I was "blown away" and the overall message really spoke to me. Of course I am a guy, so I might be biased.

I can't respond to Rosie in the context of addiction, and I certainly have no intention of condoning sinful behaviour, but I can offer some experiential comments regarding intimacy and relationships. Before posting, I did a web search and here is a link that associates a lack of intimacy with sexual addiction.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f016.html#level-one

On this web site an introspective question is asked:

"Are you substituting the illusion of intimacy provided by an object or event for the genuine intimacy found in a healthy relationship?"

I believe that intamacy in a relationship is a key where the lack of it can create a lot of unnecessary pain and frustration. My marriage of nearly 33 years has been one with a lot of emotional ups and downs. When I sit back and take a thoughtful look at it, I believe that much of what I have looked and hoped for has been a deeper level of intimacy with my wife. Lest some think that I am merely speaking of a once a week rendevous in the bedroom, please understand that true intimacy is much more.

Surprised to hear a guy say this? It is possible that my situation is a role reversal from what may be considered typical. I don't really know, but as with many relational issues, I am sure that some of it goes back to a person's childhood.

Example:

I grew up in a situation where my mother was divorced when I was about one year old. We lived with my grandparents until I was around eleven or twelve, when my mother remarried. My extended family was one where at times you loved them, yet at times you hated them.

On the positive side, the family was very intimate with plenty of hugs and kisses to go around so that no one was left out. On the "flip side of the coin", that level of intimacy with one another created problems where everyone at times was in everyone else's business, which really "drove me up a tree" as I got into my teen-age years.

Due to divorce and death, there were few male role models to look up to and as a result, there was an entrenched martriachy which was difficult to relate to, the older I got. My step-father was not physically abusive to people, only to things i.e., throwing objects through windows, kicking in doors to vehicles, blaming everyone else for his problems, etc......you know, the sorts of things that are easier to get over, when compared to physical abuse. I was raised Adventist.

My wife along with her three siblings, grew up in a more stable environment. Her parents stayed together and she doesn't recall of any disagreements or arguing, at least in front of the children. She tells me that she knew in her heart that her parents by their actions loved them, but they never went out of their way to do a lot of hugging and kissing, or touching, or even verbalize the "I love you" words. She was raised Presbyterian.

We met in public high school. She converted to Adventism. Looking back, we believe that God had His hand in it. As an interesting side note, her name means "Spear Maiden", mine means "Spear Warrior". Is that a coincidence or what? Oh no......now with a little Internet sleuthing, you might be able to partially figure out our identity. We raised three children who are now married, and live what many would consider to be a normal life.

When I look back at our pre-marriage relationship, I have to admit that it was she who "put the moves" on me. Maybe it was the "wonderful: traits if shyness, low self esteem, or being an "unjock" that attracted her. Who knows, but we connected and she did all sorts of special things that communicated to me that I was special to her. Yes, she made me cookies and we went for long walks, but how many of you guys ever had a girlfriend make you a handmade shirt to wear?

By her actions, I knew that she really cared about me. Of course, I did a lot of special things with and for her also. One of the things that she remembers is one day before we were married, while she was at work, I covertly picked up her car, had new tires put on it, then parked it back where it was. Ok ladies, I know it "broke the mold" and wasn't the traditional perfume, flowers, or candy, but it meant a lot to her.

She has been a wonderful wife, mother, and now grandmother, but yet there have been clear deficiencies in our relationship. It has always haunted me that she can be very spontaneously intimate with animals and children, but yet when it comes to the relationship with the one that she is married to, the love of her life, I never hear any words of encouragement.

She never comes up and puts her arms around me and tells me that she loves me, even though I do it to her all of the time. Due to her unwillingness, we can never even pray together. Yes, she is insistant that I give her a kiss when I go out the door each morning, a kiss before she goes to bed, and she makes me a lunch most days. She equates such efforts as her way of showing affection. Of course, I go to work every day, take responsibility to pay all of the bills, taking financial care of her. I do such things in part because I love her, but intimate?......I don't think so.

She loves to listen or watch all of the relational programs like Focus on the Family, Oprah, and Dr. Phil, but it looks to me as if all of such is a waste of time, unless you learn something from it and it motivates you to change or try to do something different in a relationship that can make it better, and I have told her this.

Last year when I first heard about Dr. Laura's book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands", it struck such a note with me that I bought her a copy, purchased a very nice card, a single red rose, wrote a poem to include in the card, and laid it on the bed for her to find. It made her cry, but she never did complete the book, and never seemed to learn anything from it that made any difference in our relationship.

After that, I began to write other poems that I shared with her in an effort to try and convey feelings that I have. The following is one such poem. The context is that during our 33 year marriage, she has never had a nice portrait taken of her that I could keep. I wrote this poem in an effort to tell her how much it would mean for me to have one.

The Photograph

There is a little dingy store

that sells old memories,

I wouldn't enter through those doors

but curiosity to appease.

The memories are there displayed

for everyone to see,

waiting to be used again

most for a small fee.

On dusty shelves they lie and wait

for people to walk by,

in hopes that one will stop and look

they beckon to the eye.

You cannot help but wonder

what those memories would say,

if only they had mouths to speak

of times of an earlier day.

Were those times happy or were they sad

'twould be interesting to know,

the places they've been, and lives they've touched,

the questions run to and fro.

The memories are in many forms,

in style, size, an shape,

until they're either sold or dumped

there's no chance of escape.

I see a set of china

with a missing cup or two,

and a chip in a serving dish

that maybe once held stew.

I wonder if that china

graced tables topped with lace,

or was handed down from family

used for a special time and place.

When it was time to eat a meal,

did laughter fill the room,

or was a prayer sent aloft

to lift a cloud of gloom?

There were many aisles with shelves

filled with toys, tools, and clothes,

you cannot help but wonder

who owned and used all of those.

I finally came upon a room,

it had a separate door,

quite amazed I was to open it

seeing boxes from ceiling to floor.

The boxes were not labeled

which forced me to inspect,

what treasure might I find within

for what do they collect?

The boxes contained photographs

of every kind and type,

some had been there for so long

the dust I had to wipe.

As I was checking box to box

it became so very clear,

the faces on those photographs

to someone were once dear.

The thought then hit me with alarm

my head began to spin,

each box was a final resting place

an unmarked grave for the photos within.

Each face contained within each box

was once a living soul,

Was there no one left upon the earth

for these photos to console?

I began to look ahead

to the day that that could be near,

will some of my photographs

eventually end up here?

It makes you realize in this life

that the photographs you hold,

their only value may be to you

when you're gone, they may be sold.

So value the time that is spent

with those who care for you,

and may those photos play the part

your spirit and courage to renew.

Be sure to take those photos now

for someday you may find,

the time may come and you're required

to be physically confined.

You may be forced to lie in bed

with photos by your side,

to trigger those old memories

that help you to abide.

How is it that a photograph

can bring sunshine to your heart,

or it can make you shed a tear

to where you almost fall apart?

That is a risk that I will take

to look on a loved one dear,

it may be all that I have left

to bring a little cheer.

Oh precious one, please think of me

in these few lines I write,

don't let the minutes pass you by

so fast in all their flight.

A picture's worth a thousand words,

you've heard that line before,

I wish you'd give me one of you

to treasure and adore.

You may ask, did she end up getting a portrait? No. As a result, do I love her any less? No. Do I see any hope that things might change. I wish.

This may be hard for women to accept, and I can't remember exactly where I read the statistic, but a survey was done on why men would seek to spend time with a prostitute, and the majority responded that they were looking for intimacy, not necessarily of the sexual variety. I believe that this offers a clue as to the problem and the solution.

While they all approach the subject from a little different angle, I believe that what Focus on the Family, Dr. Laura, and Dr. Emerson Eggerichs are attempting to convey to women is not that they are responsible for all of the bad things that can happen in a relationship, but to educate them how much power and influence they can have over their husbands. I am not talking about control here.

I know that I have fantasies.......fantasies of my wife putting her arms around me and giving words of encouragement. A daily dose of that could do wonders, and I know my weaknesses.....it would make me "putty in her hands".

On the thought of "coddling" a male's ego, what's wrong with a little coddling now and then? A man that is conscientious, feels responsible to take care of "his woman", and would even die for her if necessary. What's wrong with words of appreciation?

Of course there is danger in having overly high expectations of your spouse. You are likely to be disappointed, and Satan can take such an opportunity to lead you down wrong paths. This is why affairs can happen. It happened to my son. He wasn't spending enough time with his wife due to overworking, and his wife started feeling sorry for herself to the point where she began confiding in co-workers. It started looking "greener on the other side of the fence" to the point where she had a child with someone else.

Relationships can be very fragile. Men tend to withdraw, which at times can be construed as moodiness, but in reality there may be some hidden pain or frustration that they don't know how to deal with, or they are hiding from. We all want to find answers for the problems in our relationships, but sometimes we may just have to learn to humbly "bear a cross".

I certainly don't mean to imply this as a solution for Rosie's daughter, I am merely thinking more of the situation that I find myself in. Yet many others are living with similar challenges and maybe just a word or two (in my case several) can offer a little encouragement. Shouldn't that be the purpose of such forums?

[Nan]

Thank you JtsLes for a long but thought provoking post. I am of the other gender and blessed to be now in a marriage where we have true intimacy, including having prayer together, and washing each other's feet during the communion service.

You have opened up a lot. Just wondering, does your wife know you have written like this - wondering how your putting all this down would affect her ?

God bless you both - and all of us as we strive to keep healthy homes and families.

[Rosie]

Welcome to CA!

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, JtsLes.

You gave us a whole different perspective, and from what I've heard, you are not alone in this.

[JtsLes]

Rosie,

Thank you very much for the welcome!

Nan,

I have had several conversations with my wife about "The Photograph" issue, along with other conversations. She has openly acknowledged and talked with me about how she was raised as I previously mentioned, and questions at times how it might have affected our relationship. Depending on the content, my poems can make her cry at times, but she gets over it and it becomes history and I never hear any more about it. At that point, I just "suck it up" and live with it.

Everything that I have written, I have shared with my wife. In truth, writing poetry has been a more constructive way for me to deal with some relational issues, and it helps to keep any bitterness and withdrawal in check. I know some people like to do journals, but poetry works for me.