Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Dr. Shane]

Why is it that the drinking of alcohol equals alcoholism and drunkenness in this thread?

I don't think I have made that assertion. There are some people that drink alcohol without getting a buzz or tipsy. The body burn alcohol at about one drink per hour. So if a person doesn't drink it more than that, they should not have to worry about drunkenness.

I think I have expounded on alcoholism quite a bit. Basically, smoking doesn't guarantee that the smoker is going to get cancer. Drinking doesn't guarantee the drinker is going to become alcoholic. Explain to me why someone would want to smoke or drink given the risk factors. If they are not drinking to get drunk, I am at a loss to grasp that.

[LifeHiscost]

For you too much may be a drop. For other person too much may be anything more than a glass of whine or a can of beer.

In my estimation it's the glass of whine that is the greater problem among some, instead of the can of beer, although perhaps not quite as destructive to others. teehe

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

People that start drinking often do terrible things while they are out of control. People who are avowed teetotalers never do anything terrible as a result of drinking.

They have to find whole other motivations and excuses to do terrible things.

Such as smoking pot or chewing peyote, which is done in the name of religion in some cases. And BTW, illicit sexual behavior seems often to be at the foremost accepted behavior in false religion.

Could that last give a good indication of where modern religion in general finds itself?

God blesses!

[phkrause]

Indeed. Romans 14:

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Beautiful post Bravus.

[doug yowell]

Just a question not related to any one post.

Why is it that the drinking of alcohol equals alcoholism and drunkedness in this thread?

Because it is a convenient red herring argument that doesn't exist in this thread.

[Guest]

I don't know about in this thread, but I do know that alcohol equals alcoholism and drunkenness when it's in me.

[olger]

Such as smoking pot or chewing peyote, which is done in the name of religion in some cases. And BTW, illicit sexual behavior seems often to be at the foremost accepted behavior in false religion.

Could that last give a good indication of where modern religion in general finds itself?

God blesses!

Excellent mein Bruder.

gcw

[John317]

Heavy drinking may raise abnormal heart rhythm risk

Wed Jan 19, 10:10 pm ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) – People who drink regularly, especially heavy drinkers, may be more likely than teetotalers to suffer atrial fibrillation, a type of abnormal heart rhythm, according to a research review.

In an analysis of 14 studies, a team led by Satoru Kodama at the University of Tsukuba Institute of Clinical Medicine in Japan found that the heaviest drinkers were more likely to be diagnosed with the condition than people who drank little to no alcohol.

Though definitions of "heavy" drinking varied, it meant at least two or more drinks per day for men, and one or more per day for women. In some studies, heavy drinkers downed at least six drinks per day.

While doctors have long known that a drinking binge can trigger an episode of atrial fibrillation (AF), the findings -- reported in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology -- suggest that usual drinking habits may also matter.

"What we revealed in the current (study) is that not only episodic but habitual heavy drinking is associated with higher risk of AF," said Hirohito Sone, a colleague of Kodama's, told Reuters Health by email.

Atrial fibrillation is the most common abnormal heart rhythm and is not in itself life-threatening, but patients with it are at significantly higher risk of strokes. It may also result in palpitations, fainting, chest pain or congestive heart failure.

When all the study results were combined, heavy drinkers were 51 percent more likely to suffer atrial fibrillation than either non-drinkers or occasional drinkers.

Overall, the risk edged up 8 percent for every increase of 10 grams in participants' daily alcohol intake.

More than 2.6 million U.S. citizens will suffer from atrial fibrillation this year, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The condition becomes more common with age and additional risk factors include high blood pressure, diabetes and obesity.

Since coronary heart disease is much more common cause of death than atrial fibrillation, Sone said moderate drinking -- up to one or two drinks per day -- is probably still a heart-healthy habit for most people.

A better way to show a connection is with studies that measure people's drinking habits, then follow them over time to see who develops atrial fibrillation, said Kenneth Mukamal of Harvard University and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, who led two of the studies included in the analysis.

One of Mukamal's studies found a connection only between heavy drinking, with men who had five or more drinks a day having a higher risk of developing the condition over time than occasional drinkers.

Mukamal said that, based on longer-term studies, "there's little risk from chronic drinking in moderation, but heavier drinking -- even rarely -- acutely increases risk."

[John317]

For those who respect and believe in the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White:

Let not one drop of wine or liquor pass your lips, for in its rise is madness and evil. Pledge yourself to entire abstinence, for it is your only safety. {20MR 57.3}

Many ministers preach Christ from the pulpit, and then do not hesitate to benumb their senses by wine tippling, or even indulging in brandy and other liquors. The Christian standard says, "Touch not; taste not; handle not;" and the laws of our physical being repeat the solemn injunction with emphasis. It is the duty of every Christian minister to lay this truth plainly before his people, teaching it both by precept and example. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 9}

The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. We appeal to the natural reason whether the blood of Christ is better represented by the pure juice of the grape in its natural state, or after it has been converted into a fermented and intoxicating wine. We maintain that the former is the only symbol properly representing the sacred blood of Christ, and a symbol established by himself; and we urge that the latter should never be placed upon the Lord's table. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 10}

It has been declared by some that Christ favored the moderate use of fermented wine, in witness whereof they refer to his miracle of changing water into wine. But we protest that Christ never made intoxicating wine; such an act would have been contrary to all the teachings and example of his life. He was the Angel who led the children of Israel in the wilderness. He spoke the law from Sinai. He prohibited those who officiated in holy office from using wine; and his reasons for so doing are explicit; viz., that they may have clear judgment to distinguish between the common and the sacred, to do justice to the fatherless and widows, to teach his statutes and laws to Israel, and to accept no bribes. Those who abolish the law of God for the sake of getting rid of the Sabbath, do away with the most solemn restrictions against using liquor. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 11}

He who appeared to the wife of Manoah, and told her she should bear a son, and described his character for strength, and charged her to drink no wine or strong drink, for the child should be a Nazarite from his birth; He who appeared to Zacharias, and gave him directions regarding the unborn John, charging him that the child should drink no wine or strong drink, was not one who would make intoxicating wine and give it to the people upon a wedding occasion. The wine which Christ manufactured from water by a miracle of his power, was the pure juice of the grape. And the object of the Saviour, in this miracle, was to bring the perverted taste of the governor of the feast to a healthy condition, by inducing him to acknowledge that this wine was superior in quality to any he had before tasted. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 12}

There are those in our day, who, in order to excuse their own sins, follow the example of the Jews, and charge Christ with being a Sabbath-breaker and wine-bibber, notwithstanding he declared that he kept his Father's commandments, and his whole life was an example of temperance and self-denial. Had he been a wine-bibber he could not have been a perfect offering, and the virtue of his blood would have been of no avail. But this charge, as well as the former, is best refuted by the character and teachings of Christ himself. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 13}

The Christian church is pronounced to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world. Can we apply this to the churches of today, many of whose members are using, not only the defiling narcotic, tobacco, but intoxicating wine, and spirituous liquor, and are placing the wine-cup to their neighbor's lips? The church of Christ should be a school in which the inexperienced youth should be educated to control their appetites, from a moral and religious standpoint. They should there be taught how unsafe it is to tamper with temptation, to dally with sin; that there is no such thing as being a moderate and temperate drinker; that the path of the tippler is ever downward. They should be exhorted to "look not upon the wine when it is red," which "at the last biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 14}

[olger]

Forsooth!

[Overaged]

Forsooth!

Good word!

[Overaged]

The Christian church is pronounced to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world. Can we apply this to the churches of today, many of whose members are using, not only the defiling narcotic, tobacco, but intoxicating wine, and spirituous liquor, and are placing the wine-cup to their neighbor's lips? The church of Christ should be a school in which the inexperienced youth should be educated to control their appetites, from a moral and religious standpoint. They should there be taught how unsafe it is to tamper with temptation, to dally with sin; that there is no such thing as being a moderate and temperate drinker; that the path of the tippler is ever downward. They should be exhorted to "look not upon the wine when it is red," which "at the last biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 14}

This last paragraph says it very well.

[John317]

Tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol we must present as sinful indulgences. We cannot place on the same ground, meat, eggs, butter, cheese, and such articles placed upon the table. These are not to be borne in front, as the burden of our work. The former--tea, coffee, tobacco, beer, wine, and all spirituous liquors--are not to be taken moderately, but discarded.--3SM 287 (1881). {LDE 81.1}

True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything hurtful and to use judiciously that which is healthful.--PP 562 (1890). {LDE 81.2}

Pure air, sunlight, abstemiousness, rest, exercise, proper diet, the use of water, trust in divine power--these are the true remedies.--MH 127 (1905). {LDE 81.3}

Whatever injures the health not only lessens physical vigor but tends to weaken the mental and moral powers. Indulgence in any unhealthful practice makes it more difficult for one to discriminate between right and wrong and hence more difficult to resist evil.--MH 128 (1905). {LDE 81.4}

[doug yowell]

That seems like a pretty clear directive,uh,suggestion??,for SDA's. Those who disagree with this historical position of ours should feel no obligation to become or remain SDA's. If EGW and the church have it wrong why be a part of it?

[shelly]

I think that the church and EGW are wrong about caffine and alcohol. While I do not drink I do not refrain from caffine. I love a goood cup of coffee! There is so much truth in the SDA church that I would not let a minor issue such as alcohol or cafffeine keep me away from the church. To me saying that not obstaining is sin is a reach if one relies soley on the bible. EGW's interpretation, to me, is made more on her personal belief system and it is hard to prove indulgence is sin strictly from the word. As I was taught growing up SDA, the Bible before EGW. And for me there is a contradiction with what EGW asserts and what the Bible is actually saying.

[John317]

I agree, Doug. I drank coffee for years, and in fact, I drank diet pepsi like it was going out of style until only a few months ago. I had to give it up because of my diabetes. When I drank it, it would make my feet hurt. I drank it because it didn't have sugar in it, and I even started drinking the diet pepsi without caffeine, but I found out that even the pepsi without caffeine is not good for my body. I began drinking coffee at my work which required me to stay awake all night, and during most of those 21 years, I was not living as either a Christian or SDA.

Now I wish I had followed the counsels of Ellen White on health. As it is, I knew what she said, and I believed she was a prophet of God, but I wanted to do "my own thing." I enjoyed drinking every alcoholic beverage and sometimes to excess because once I got high, I didn't want to stop.

I quit drinking alcohol about 5 years ago.

[doug yowell]

I think that the church and EGW are wrong about caffine and alcohol. While I do not drink I do not refrain from caffine. I love a goood cup of coffee! There is so much truth in the SDA church that I would not let a minor issue such as alcohol or cafffeine keep me away from the church. To me saying that not obstaining is sin is a reach if one relies soley on the bible. EGW's interpretation, to me, is made more on her personal belief system and it is hard to prove indulgence is sin strictly from the word. As I was taught growing up SDA, the Bible before EGW. And for me there is a contradiction with what EGW asserts and what the Bible is actually saying.

I understand the attendance part because of the "other good stuff", but official membership (which includes the right to be a part of the decision making process as well as being an official ambassador for what the church teaches)requires a committment to practice what the church preaches.I can accept those who may not agree but live in accordance with the rules out of respect for the Rom.14-15:3 admonition.I have a lot more trouble with those who feel that they are above the need to not undermine the tenets of church.

[doug yowell]

I agree, Doug. I drank coffee for years, and in fact, I drank diet pepsi like it was going out of style until only a few months ago. I had to give it up because of my diabetes. When I drank it, it would make my feet hurt. I drank it because it didn't have sugar in it, and I even started drinking the diet pepsi without caffeine, but I found out that even the pepsi without caffeine is not good for my body. I began drinking coffee at my work which required me to stay awake all night, and during most of those 21 years, I was not living as either a Christian or SDA.

Now I wish I had followed the counsels of Ellen White on health. As it is, I knew what she said, and I believed she was a prophet of God, but I wanted to do "my own thing." I enjoyed drinking every alcoholic beverage and sometimes to excess because once I got high, I didn't want to stop.

I quit drinking alcohol about 5 years ago.

So even if you didn't accept EW as a prophet would you say that the practical benefits of "putting down"(now there's a phrase I haven't heard for awhile)outweighed the pleasures you had to give up? Or is it mostly a spiritual/mental thing?

[shelly]

Doug, I think one can "uphold" the lifestyle without having to be silent on the issue. When asked about the SDA stance on alcohol and caffeine I give the churches position. I do not try to downplay the churches stance by bringing my Mountain Dew to potluck. However, in my house and in my daily life I choose to indulge in something that I believe is not a sin. Is it the best thing for me? No. Is it going to keep me from heaven-I don't believe it will. While I respect EGW and the contribution she has made to our church I do not believe that her interpretations of the bible are without error. I do not believe that the bible supports her point of view. As a SDA, I understand that bible comes before SOP and if their is ever a question we are to go with the bible.

[Guest]

While I respect EGW and the contribution she has made to our church I do not believe that her interpretations of the bible are without error.

That would mean that she was not a true prophet. In which case it doesn't matter about putting the Bible first because there is no SOP in the SDA church.

Isa 8:20 ...if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I don't know of any cases in the Bible where one of God's prophets got it wrong, or misunderstood God's word.

Let the stones fly...

[fccool]

Richard...

Who says that all of her personal interpretations are from God? She changed her minds on many issues throughout her lifetime... so she obviously got it wrong somewhere somehow. Or are we make her out to be an Adventist Pope now?

[Guest]

What doctrine did she change her mind about?

With all that she had to say about tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco, I believe God would have stopped her if what she was saying was wrong.

[shelly]

Richard...

Who says that all of her personal interpretations are from God? She changed her minds on many issues throughout her lifetime... so she obviously got it wrong somewhere somehow. Or are we make her out to be an Adventist Pope now?

Thank you! It's not all or nothing. Some of her writings are opinions based on her understanding and not inspired. However, we as SDA act as if we disagree with her opinion we are rejecting everything she says. I reject that I need to cover my hair when I go into the church as Paul advised, but that does not mean I am negating Paul's message. But this thread isn't about EGW. I am a SDA who drinks coffee, Coke, and Mountain Dew. I also believe the sin regarding alcohol is drunkeness rather than the actual drinking itself. I personally do not drink. EGW's advice is good, but the bible must be twisted to fit her point of view that these things are sin. The bible is pretty clear on what sin is. No need to draw conclusions. "Thou shalt not" usually is a good indicator of what sin is.

[fccool]

What doctrine did she change her mind about?

With all that she had to say about tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco, I believe God would have stopped her if what she was saying was wrong.

[John317]

Who says that all of her personal interpretations are from God? She changed her minds on many issues throughout her lifetime... so she obviously got it wrong somewhere somehow. Or are we make her out to be an Adventist Pope now?

What Ellen White wrote concerning alcohol was not a personal opinion. She was given visions regarding these topics.

When you say she changed her mind, you are right; yet the difference is that she changed her mind about her own private viewpoint, which is quite different from changing her writings about what God had shown her. She never had to go back to her writings about the visions and change them because of changing her mind about what she said God showed her. However, it's true that Ellen White,like all people, had her personal and private opinions about things. She said that she did not pass off her own private opinions and views as being from God in her counsels and Testmonies.

The difference betwen the pope and Ellen White is very great. Ellen White is a prophet of God whereas the pope never even claimed to be. The pope also claims to be infallible when speaking ex-cathedra, whereas the prophet of God never claimed to be infallible. Instead, she said that her own writings are to be judged by the Scriptrues.