20 years ago in Iraq

[Woody]

20 years ago today our war against Iraq started.

President Bush made a good moral decision to do so in my humble opinion. And his son continued the decision when Saddam broke the cease-fire agreement.

Difficult decisions require men of honor. Praise God for the leadership of this nation back then.

[fccool]

Iraq is a much safer [lace as a result.

[Gordon1]

Iraq is destroyed and laced with Depleted Uranium.

It's now more dangerous than ever before, even for Americans serving there. Who wants to have deformed children? This is our legacy in the land of Abraham, Ur of the Chaldees.

And don't minimize the danger posed to American society by the thousands of PTSD troops who return and are left to twist in the wind by the VA, fighting, pleading for health services - many of them homeless or suicidal.

It's Tony Blair who made Gulf War 2 possible, perhaps the highest profile convert to Roman Catholicism in modern history. It's no coincidence he was appointed special UN Envoy to the Middle East or that his Tony Blair Faith Foundation launched the "Faith and Globalisation Inititiative to build a global conversation" between an "elite group" of universities." (Wikipedia) Guess which faith will be leading the way?

All Roads lead to Rome. The Iraq invasions merely highlight the horrors of the Inquisition in a modern context. Submit or be crushed.

There's no honour in carpet-bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

There's no honour in torturing those who are made in the image of God.

[John317]

...There's no honour in carpet-bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Where's the evidence that we carpet-bombed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq?

I'm aware of the carpet-bombing of the Iraqi military in the Iraqi desert, but not of civilians in the cities or towns.

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

There's no honour in torturing those who are made in the image of God.

Are you talking about water-boarding here?

[Bravus]

A lot more than water-boarding went on at Abu Ghraib - and the evidence shows that approval for that went a long way up the chain of command. The idea that it was a few rogue operators on the ground does not hold up under even cursory inquiry.

[bonnie]

A lot more than water-boarding went on at Abu Ghraib - and the evidence shows that approval for that went a long way up the chain of command. The idea that it was a few rogue operators on the ground does not hold up under even cursory inquiry.

People see waterboarding in different lights. If the young man that was decapitated with a dull machete could have been spared with some waterboarding I would have carried the water.

Iraq is not the first or the last war we will experience and many inappropriate actions will take place. When you are dealing with thousands and thousands of different personalities

and experiences you will have things like that.

Like minded people like yourself think you can talk nicely and say please and it will end.No more people in shredders etc.

Abu Ghraib has been the continual whine since it came to light.

Acquaintances of ours have so much more and so much more horrific than waterboarding.

Abu Ghraib is not the war in Iraq. It is something that happened that should not have but pales in comparison to what was done before we even got there

[John317]

So is Abu Ghraib what you have in mind when you and others speak of Americans "torturing" people?

I don't think history will judge everything the Americans did in Iraq on the basis of the pictures that came out of Abu Ghraib. Was it wrong to do those things? Yes, of course. And the people who did them were punished. But when you weigh what happened there with what else was going on in Iraq and with what Saddam had done, Abu Ghraib was a relatively minor incident and doesn't come close to summing up the situation there. It certainly doesn't negate everything else that has resulted from the invasion and the end of Saddim's rule.

[Woody]

No matter how much good the US does ... it will always be criticized for some minor infraction.

[Bravus]

Are you volunteering to be the target of some of the 'minor infractions' at Abu Ghraib? (which, incidentally, were not water-boarding: be nice if people could keep their facts straight).

Look, I'm not even going to bother any more. America is clearly the bastion of all that is right and good in the world, and can do no wrong, and is completely justified in torturing people as it spreads its light.

I'm done.

[Dr. Shane]

I thought America was the second beast of Revelation 13.

[Gordon1]

Where's the evidence that we carpet-bombed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq?

[Dr. Shane]

So the answer to John317's question is there is no evidence that the US carpet bombed Iraq. There is a lot of evidence that the US invaded Iraq but not carpet bombed them.

Many criticize the US that it did not have enough troops nor hit Iraq hard enough when it invaded. One major mistake they made was disbanding Saddam's military. Most in his military were recruited into insurgent groups. In hindsight, the US should have moved Saddam's military members into police and security force positions.

[Gordon1]

So the answer to John317's question is there is no evidence that the US carpet bombed Iraq.

Evidence is presented in the journalist's article, twice using the term carpet bombing. But there is no evidence for those who close their eyes. Also find testimony from a U.S. serviceman - burying surrendered Iraqi troops in their trenches with a bulldozer. Sorry it's not cheery reading, but at least these are eye witness accounts. Better than sanitized corporate news. This journalist has plenty of articles over two decades - she's not the only one, but certainly one of the braver Western hacks.

Would that Christians were also willing to denounce error & injustice in their midst.

Is Depleted Uranium dust acceptable for your neighborhood Shane? No intelligent parent could ever hope for this, yet we continue to support such activity in other lands. You may view this as 'spreading democracy' but many hear the voice of a dragon.

[fccool]

The major problem with this thread is a perspective. We see Iraq from two different perspectives.

When Bonnie and John see Iraq, I think they see people in military uniform headed by ruthless dictator who tortures the rest of the people. It's an airbrushed reality that only covers perhaps 5% or less of the population of Iraq.

The other 95% is what I also see. I see people who live their lives making the best of what they handed down. 70% of Iraqi children suffer from severe psychological traumas as indicated by recent survey. Many now live in deteriorating and anti-sanitary conditions... far below the poverty line.

Before the Iraq was ruled by a ruthless dictator, now Iraq is ruled by the militant mobs that walk around with guns, and extort money to fund their power-trip... all with local police looking the other way. It's now survival of the fittest.

I'm not saying that there has not been anything positive, but the glass is not even 10% full.

On our side. This was has cost us a trillion dollars which mostly benefited government contractors. Just like in the song... it was good for absolutely nothing.

Of course, it's hard to admit for some, because they have a lot emotional and physical investment in the idea or process. It's hard to think that 5000 soldiers, or 100,000 + civilians died needlessly.

[John317]

...Look, I'm not even going to bother any more. America is clearly the bastion of all that is right and good in the world, and can do no wrong, and is completely justified in torturing people as it spreads its light.

I'm done.

Bravus, I don't think anyone has said that America can do no wrong or that it is completely justified in torturing people.

Of course American do do wrong, and Americans have ceraintly done wrong.

As for torturing people, I would only like there to be the same protest against the real torture and torturers in the world as there is against America when some Americans make people feel like they are drowning when they are really not.

Let me ask you this:

Let's say you have a daughter who is in the hands of ruthless kidnappers who have said they are going to kill her. The police catch one of the kidnappers, and he refuses to tell where your daughter is. Your daughter will die in 24 hours if they can't find out where she is. The police tell the kidnapper, "Please tell us where she is." But so far the kidnapper refuses to tell anything he knows. The police ask you for your permission to pour water on the kidnapper so he will feel like he is drowning even though he really is not. The police assure you that if they do this procedure, you will have your duaghter back. But if they don't, you daughter is almost certain to die.

What is your decision?

[Bravus]

Couple of things there:

1. You keep reducing American torture to just waterboarding, and that's very dishonest. Far worse things happened at Abu Ghraib, and far worse things happened at Guantanamo Bay. And even worse things happened to people who underwent 'extraordinary rendition' to countries that torture. Stop pretending that waterboarding is all that ever happened.

2. Waterboarding is torture. The fact that it doesn't tear flesh or leave marks might be a bonus, but it is the intentional infliction of pain and distress in order to coerce some action. It is torture under any sane definition of torture, and the rightwing blowhards who claimed they'd be willing to undergo it to show it wasn't so bad have quietly faded away without ever doing so. If you'd like to try it some time...

3. On the hypothetical, two things: (a) extreme cases make bad law. That situation *has never happened in reality*. The fact that it's possible to imagine it does not mean it happens and ( all those who actually study torture agree that torture is completely useless for finding out information someone knows. Torture breaks the spirit so that someone will say whatever the torturer wants to hear, but that means there is no way to tell good information from bad... and what if the tortured person *really does not know* the information that is sought.

Torture is torture is torture and is morally wrong no matter who does it. The fact that we're even having this conversation appals me. The fact that believers in Christ are believers in torture baffles me.

Which is why I said 'I'm done' earlier. There is no possible way of arguing morality with someone who believes every person is made in the image of God, died for by Christ - and yet that it's OK to torture some of them.

[bonnie]

The major problem with this thread is a perspective. We see Iraq from two different perspectives.

When Bonnie and John see Iraq, I think they see people in military uniform headed by ruthless dictator who tortures the rest of the people. It's an airbrushed reality that only covers perhaps 5% or less of the population of Iraq.

[Dr. Shane]

It's hard to think that 5000 soldiers, or 100,000 + civilians died needlessly.

I lay all that blood on the hands of Saddam.

Prior to the invasion President Putin of Russia called President Bush and told him that Russian Intelligence has uncovered a plot of Saddam to use terrorists and WMDS to attack the US on US soil.

What would any reasonable US President do with that information?

Several of our allies had intelligence that Saddam had WMDs.

Saddam had run the weapons inspectors out of his country and when they returned was not forth coming with them.

In a last ditch effort to avoid war, President Bush told Saddam that he and his sons had 48 hours to seek asylum and the US would not pursuit them. Saddam stood firm and brought hell and death on to his country.

After the invasion we got access to Iraqi intelligence and learned the plot Russia had discovered was from 1996. It was old intelligence. We discovered that Saddam had been bribing member of the UN Security Council to get sanctions lifted and after sanctions were lifted planned to resume his WMD programs.

Saddam was the bad guy. Saddam could have prevented the war. All the blood split in that way is because of one man - Saddam Hussein.

[Gordon1]

Hi John,

Torture is a hallmark of Satan's government. America has over 700 military bases on foreign soil. CIA secret renditions for torture are now a matter of public record.

Jesus summed up the Royal Law in two words: Love God supremely, and your neighbor as yourself. It's the AntiChrist who introduced waterboarding, the rack, the Iron Maiden, dismemberment & mutilation, hundreds of years ago. (see Foxe's Book of Martyrs).

As for 'the real torturers', it's unlikely any country has a more widespread application of torture. But the real irony is that many, perhaps most of these torture victims, are not ruthless kidnappers, but innocent cab drivers, teachers, shopkeepers who were sold to coalition soldiers. Lucrative bounties were offered to turn in "terrorists" - a great temptation in time of deprivation. But terrorists are needed to fuel the war effort and fill Guantanamo Bay - so if they don't exist - just make some up - reality TV. (see The Road to Guantanamo docudrama of the British Tipton Three)

If you can, please provide evidence that Jesus taught torture methods or recommended torture in extreme circumstances. Or even if EGW did the same. I've read nothing that comes close. John, our beliefs and actions must accord with the Word if we hope to enter the City.

And this is our inheritance. Instead of defending a worldly government of our own tradition, let's look beyond the pale, unto our Captain who said 'My kingdom is not of this world.' We have a better country John, even a heavenly.

[doug yowell]

Are you volunteering to be the target of some of the 'minor infractions' at Abu Ghraib? (which, incidentally, were not water-boarding: be nice if people could keep their facts straight).

Look, I'm not even going to bother any more. America is clearly the bastion of all that is right and good in the world, and can do no wrong, and is completely justified in torturing people as it spreads its light.

I'm done.

Luke........I am your father!!!

[doug yowell]

Would that Christians were also willing to denounce error & injustice in their midst.

Is Depleted Uranium dust acceptable for your neighborhood Shane? No intelligent parent could ever hope for this, yet we continue to support such activity in other lands. You may view this as 'spreading democracy' but many hear the voice of a dragon.

The evil empire strikes again!!

[Gordon1]

Let me ask you this...What is your decision?

John, This is the time to either act like the world, or act like Christ. But our decision must be rooted well in advance.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: John317

Let me ask you this...What is your decision?

John, This is the time to either act like the world, or act like Christ. But our decision must be rooted well in advance.

Unfortunately, the United States government is prohibited,by constitutional restraints,in acting like Christ. In fact,a President could get himself in real trouble if he invoked a Christian principle in his shaping of foreign policy.Something that moralistic critics seem to overlook when convenient.

[Bravus]

I believe America is, on balance, a positive power in the world. It does many good things, and influences the overall climate in a generally positive way. I'm not anti-American.

But it's not perfect. And it's when it pretends to be perfect that it is at its worse. It's when, instead of acknolwedging its worst actions and choices and resolving to do better, it embraces and defends them, that it's at its worst.

The second Iraq invasion was an immense mistake. It's undeniable that more Iraqis have died and that Iraq is a far worse place to live now that in would have been had the country not be invaded. (And while it's harder to judge, probably even better if America had not armed and supported Saddam for decades against Iran.)

And one of the reasons Saddam was a bad guy was because he tortured. Torturing to try to get rid of him makes no moral sense or even practical sense.

If America had never interfered in Iraq, the country would be in far better shape now. But even if it had chosen not to attack in 2003, the country would be far better off. And Iraq never posed any threat to the US.

These are not even matters of debate or dispute.

[doug yowell]

Couple of things there:

1. You keep reducing American torture to just waterboarding, and that's very dishonest. Far worse things happened at Abu Ghraib, and far worse things happened at Guantanamo Bay.

Far worse than waterboarding? Name a couple of documented examples. Is humiliating a POW in front of prison guards now become the equivelent of sawing off a non combatant's head with a knife? This kind of distorted rhetoric renders real torture innocuous.And American torture??What's American torture??