It Must Be Possible To Stop Sinning

[Overaged]

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}

[Gerr]

Stop willful sinning? Yes!!! Stop inadvertent sins & mistakes? Achieve Christ's sinless perfection? A pipe dream.

[Gordon1]

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

[Gerr]

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

God will never lead anyone into sin. But as long as you and I are in this FALLEN flesh, we will ALWAYS fall short. If you think by performance you can achieve sinless perfection, then I doubt that you really understand what sin is. Anything in your life that is at variance with God's standard, any falling short of His divine ideal, is sin. If you think you can, good luck. Ever played darts? Do you hit the center 10/10 or 100/100? Been that route back in the 80's. The harder I tried, the more obvious the impossibility became. And the more miserable my family got. So I just got down on my knees and and prayed, "Lord, if sinless perfection is what you expect of me, count me out." Only the perfection of Christ's righteousness will ever meet the righteousness that the law requires. Compared to the righeousness of Christ, our righteousness will ever be like filthy rags!

[Overaged]

Stop willful sinning? Yes!!! Stop inadvertent sins & mistakes? Achieve Christ's sinless perfection? A pipe dream.

The context of the scripture I quoted and the EGW quote does not suggest "wilful" at all. Can you provide a scriptural base for your "pipedream" idea?

[Overaged]

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

Isn't there a big difference between "erring" and "sinning?"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

Isn't there a big difference between "erring" and "sinning?"

Sin is more than just breaking the law. Here is an exposition of what sin is:

As defined by the Bible, sin is a violation of God’s standard for human behavior. The most frequent biblical words for “sin” speak of violating that standard in some fashion. The Greek equivalent, hamartia meant, originally, “to miss the mark, fail in duty” (Rom. 3:23). As Lawgiver, God sets limits to humanity’s freedom; another frequent term (Greek parabasis) describes “sin” as “transgression,” which means overstepping those set limits. A similar term is paraptoma (Greek); it denotes “a false step” or “a trespass on forbidden ground.” Two other New Testament words are anomia, which means “lawlessness,” and paranomia, which means “lawbreaking.”

Carpenter, E. E., & Comfort, P. W. (2000). Holman treasury of key Bible words: 200 Greek and 200 Hebrew words defined and explained (392). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Ever missed the mark? Know any good thing you should havve done and didn't do?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry, it's been a while. A few years ago I would have argued with you on this point but I have done a good amount of studying on this subject and can say I agree with you.

Here are some of the statements that have lead me to this conclusion.

Quote:

Intercession of Christ and His Spirit.—Christ Jesus is represented as continually standing at the altar, momentarily offering up the sacrifice for the sins of the world. He is a minister of the true tabernacle which the Lord pitched and not man. The typical shadows of the Jewish tabernacle no longer possess any virtue. A daily and yearly typical atonement is no longer to be made, but the atoning sacrifice through a mediator is essential because of the constant commission of sin. Jesus is officiating in the presence of God, offering up His shed blood, as it had been a lamb slain. Jesus presents the oblation offered for every offense and every shortcoming of the sinner. {6BC 1077.12}

Christ, our Mediator, and the Holy Spirit are constantly interceding in man’s behalf, but the Spirit pleads not for us as does Christ who presents His blood, shed from the foundation of the world; the Spirit works upon our hearts, drawing out prayers and penitence, praise and thanksgiving. The gratitude which flows from our lips is the result of the Spirit striking the cords of the soul in holy memories, awakening the music of the heart. {6BC 1077.13}

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {6BC 1078.1}

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900). {6BC 1078.2}

Stop willful sinning? Yes!!! Stop inadvertent sins & mistakes? Achieve Christ's sinless perfection? A pipe dream.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Here is another one that is all from the same source so it cannot be said it is out of context. From AA P560

Quote:

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no

Page 561

stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am (562) holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

My belief is that we can have complete victory over sin and be completely obedient to God but that is not the same thing as sinlessness. Scripture says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1Cor 13:12 We are changed by beholding and if we can't see as we are seen then there's gonna be somethings we can't do. I believe that God is looking for people who's heart is completely given to Him and who love Him with all they have and have accepted His Son Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Read the following

Quote:

Many feel that their faults of character make it impossible for them to meet the standard that Christ has erected; but all that such ones have to do is to humble themselves at every step under the mighty hand of God. Christ does not estimate the man by the amount of work he does, but by the spirit in which the work is performed. When He sees men lifting the burdens, trying to carry them in the lowliness of mind, with distrust of self, and with reliance upon Him, He adds to their work His perfection and sufficiency, and it is accepted of the Father. We are accepted in the Beloved. The sinner’s defects are covered by the perfection and fullness of the Lord our righteousness. Those who with sincere will, with contrite heart, are putting forth humble efforts to live up to the requirements of God, are looked upon by the Father with pitying, tender love. He regards such as obedient children, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed unto them. {1888 402.1}

Quote:

Christ looks at the spirit, and when He sees us carrying our burden with faith, His perfect holiness atones for our shortcomings. When we do our best, He becomes our righteousness. It takes every ray of light that God sends to us to make us the light of the world—Letter 22, 1889. {FW 102.2}

[Woody]

Quote:

our righteousness will ever be like filthy rags!

Gerry. I am impressed. Did you get this quote from me? Sure seems like it. I could hear myself saying the same thing.

Hmmmmmmmmm

[abelisle]

I thought the Holy Flesh movement was squashed by EGW in 1901?

Looks like what was old is new again?

Alex

[John317]

Where's the evidence that anyone here is supporting anything like the ideas behind the holy flesh movement?

The holy flesh movement had to do with people claiming their nature's had changed so that they could not sin.

We know that we will have a fallen nature until the second coming of Christ so that everyone is able to choose to sin.

This discussion has to do with whether believers who are filled with the Holy Spirit MUST commit sin or whether God empowers us to overcome all temptation to sin.

[John317]

The fact that our righteousness is as filthy rags is no argument against the view that God empowers us to overcome the sins in our lives. Both teachings are found in the Bible and in the writings of God's modern day prophet.

[Overaged]

I thought the Holy Flesh movement was squashed by EGW in 1901?

Looks like what was old is new again?

Alex

Ha ha! Are you intimating that I am of this "Holy Flesh Movement?" That's a good one. I think you must have been sinning too much at the gymn today.

[Overaged]

The fact that our righteousness is as filthy rags is no argument against the view that God empowers us to overcome the sins in our lives. Both teachings are found in the Bible and in the writings of God's modern day prophet.

I believe that the context in which this word "righteousness" is being used in this thread is way out wrong. "Righteousness" is NOT all the supposed "good things" that WE DO.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=Gordon1]

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

/quote]Isn't there a big difference between "erring" and "sinning?" /quote]

Sin is more than just breaking the law. Here is an exposition of what sin is:

As defined by the Bible, sin is a violation of God’s standard for human behavior. The most frequent biblical words for “sin” speak of violating that standard in some fashion. The Greek equivalent, hamartia meant, originally, “to miss the mark, fail in duty” (Rom. 3:23). As Lawgiver, God sets limits to humanity’s freedom; another frequent term (Greek parabasis) describes “sin” as “transgression,” which means overstepping those set limits. A similar term is paraptoma (Greek); it denotes “a false step” or “a trespass on forbidden ground.” Two other New Testament words are anomia, which means “lawlessness,” and paranomia, which means “lawbreaking.”

Carpenter, E. E., & Comfort, P. W. (2000). Holman treasury of key Bible words: 200 Greek and 200 Hebrew words defined and explained (392). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Ever missed the mark? Know any good thing you should havve done and didn't do?

But "sin" in the context you refer to it, is something we "do" or "don't do." Are you sure that the two things you mentioned here are all that sin is?

[Woody]

I thought the Holy Flesh movement was squashed by EGW in 1901?

Looks like what was old is new again?

Alex

I do believe you are right about that Alex. But I do think it's more severe here than in most of the churches you might go to. The internet attracts the extreme.

[Overaged]

But I do think it's more severe here than in most of the churches you might go to. The internet attracts the extreme.

Baaaa baaaa Black Sheep...

[John317]

Woody, there's no "holy flesh movement" here on the Forum.

The holy flesh movement had to do with people who were saying that they no longer had sinful flesh and therefore couldn't sin.

[Woody]

R U suggesting that I be the black sheep of the CA community with that comment of yours?

[Woody]

Woody, there's no "holy flesh movement" here on the Forum.

The holy flesh movement had to do with people who were saying that they no longer had sinful flesh and therefore couldn't sin.

Guess you and I be hearing things differently here on this forum. I guess it depends upon which perspective you come from.

[John317]

You've heard people imply or say that they couldn't sin? Or that their nature has changed from being sinful to being sinless?

I think you are trying to confuse the issue.

Do you believe the following statements by Ellen G. White? They summarize the issue.

Quote:

He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.--Manuscript 161, 1897.

362

{3SM 360.4}

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death..{FW 71}

This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

Second Advent Ends Soul Preparation-- 1888.--The robe of your character must be washed till it is spotless, in the fountain opened for all uncleanness. Your moral worth will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, and if you are found wanting, you will be at an eternal loss. All the coarseness, all the roughness, must be removed from your character before Jesus comes; for when He comes, the preparation for every soul is ended. {3SM 155.3}

If you have not laid aside your envy, your jealousies, your hatred one against another, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. You would only carry the same disposition with you; but there will be nothing of this character in the world to come. Nothing will exist there but love and joy and harmony. Some will have brighter crowns than others, but there will be no jealous thoughts in any heart among the redeemed. Each one will be perfectly satisfied, for all will be rewarded according to their work.--Signs of the Times, Feb. 10, 1888. {3SM 155.4}

[Woody]

Exactly what I thought.

[John317]

The fact that our righteousness is as filthy rags is no argument against the view that God empowers us to overcome the sins in our lives. Both teachings are found in the Bible and in the writings of God's modern day prophet.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I believe that the context in which this word "righteousness" is being used in this thread is way out wrong. "Righteousness" is NOT all the supposed "good things" that WE DO.

Please explain.

The Bible uses "righteousness" in both ways. For instance, see the following:

Romans 6:13

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

Romans 6:19

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Luke 1:6

And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

Genesis 7:1

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.

Romans 4:22

That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."