The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion

[Nic Samojluk]

has anyone shown evidence that Adventist Hospitals are in the abortion business? I mean 2011 not 1950 or 1970

I think that the folloing article published by the Washington Post should answer the question you have been asking. It was written By Julia Duin JANUARY 24, 2011

"Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion

Christians of all denominations are gathering on the National Mall today to protest the 38th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide. But one denomination that may be sparsely represented is Seventh-day Adventists whose large worldwide network of 170 hospitals allows elective abortions.

This stance was revealed last week when Maryland state regulators gave Holy Cross Hospital, a Catholic institution, permission to build a hospital in growing northern Montgomery County, shutting out the Seventh-day Adventists, who also wanted to build a hospital in the area. Some abortion rights advocates opposed Holy Cross's selection because it does not allow abortions.

Adventists resemble many conservative Protestant denominations as they believe in divinely inspired Scripture, six literal days of Creation, justification by faith and baptism by immersion.

Their distinctive rites include worshiping on Saturday, the seventh day of the week as opposed to Sunday, an emphasis on the Second Coming of Christ and an emphasis on following Jewish dietary laws concerning abstinence from pork, shellfish and other foods proscribed as "unclean" in the Old Testament. The denomination is known for its emphasis on health. Alcohol and tobacco are prohibited and many Adventists are vegetarians.

But the denomination may be the only theologically conservative Protestant group that allows elective abortions. Many of their own members didn't know that their worldwide hospital network performed the procedure, which has been quite the discussion on the Adventists for Life Facebook page. A number of posters were shocked to learn the denomination's stance.

"I can't belong to a organization who advocates abortion," one poster wrote. "I believe in Christ my Saviour, the Sabbath & etc. I believe in Sister White also," referring to Ellen G. White, one of the revered founders of the denomination.

Another poster said that Adventists opposed abortion until 1970. That is when Hawaii legalized abortion and Castle Memorial Hospital, an Adventist institution in Kailua, Hawaii, the poster said, was pressured by its own doctors, and donors, to start offering abortions. At the time, Adventist leaders in Washington indicated they did not oppose the procedure and thus, more Adventist hospitals began offering the procedure. In 1992, the denomination issued these guidelines on abortion. The official position of the church is that abortion is allowed in "extraordinary circumstances."

SDA evangelist Kevin Paulson has given the longest defense of the church's position here where he agrees the church essentially has no restrictions on the practice and might do well to restrict it more. "Many [Adventists] are forming opinions about abortion," he wrote, "not from the study of Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen G. White's) writings, but from listening to popular Christian leaders like James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Franky Schaeffer, and Bill Gothard," all of whom oppose abortion.

"Sincere though they may be, these men espouse many theological errors and have no understanding of God's truth for this time," Paulson wrote. "Seventh- day Adventists should listen to such persons with extreme care and discriminating judgment. ...Among the Adventist pioneers, J.N. Andrews and John Harvey Kellogg wrote against abortion, yet the writings of Ellen White maintain the silence of Scripture on the subject... We find it interesting that when Ellen White speaks of the "earliest moments" of our children, she speaks of birth, not conception," he concluded.

Is the Seventh-day Adventists' heavy focus on healthful practices inconsistent with its position on abortion? Tell us in the comments section."

By Julia Duin JANUARY 24, 2011

Source: http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2011/01/adventists_and_abortion.html

[karl]

Quote:

We find it interesting that when Ellen White speaks of the "earliest moments" of our children, she speaks of birth, not conception," he {Kevin Paulson} concluded.

I do believe Mr Paulson is in error in his conclusion above. EGW considered the unborn child to be a separate life from the mother. She considered the mother and unborn baby to be "two lives."

The mother's physical needs should in no case be neglected. Two lives are depending upon her, and her wishes should be tenderly regarded, her needs generously supplied. But at this time above all others she should avoid, in diet and in every other line, whatever would lessen physical or mental strength. By the command of God Himself she is placed under the most solemn obligation to exercise self-control.--MH 373 (1905). {1MCP 133.1}

The thoughts and feelings of the mother will have a powerful influence upon the legacy she gives her child. If she allows her mind to dwell upon her own feelings, if she indulges in selfishness, if she is peevish and exacting, the disposition of her child will testify to the fact. Thus many have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil.--ST, Sept 13, 1910. (Te 171.) {1MCP 132.1}

-If the mother is deprived of the care and comforts she should have, if she is allowed to exhaust her strength through overwork or through anxiety and gloom, her children will be robbed of the vital force and of the mental elasticity and cheerful buoyancy they should inherit. Far better will it be to make the mother's life bright and cheerful, to shield her from want, wearing labor, and depressing care, and let the children inherit good constitutions so that they may battle their way through life with their own energetic strength.-- MH 375 (1905). {1MCP 132.5}

[doug yowell]

Another of Kevin's airtight perforations on why EGW's "silence" supports his prochoice conclusions.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

We find it interesting that when Ellen White speaks of the "earliest moments" of our children, she speaks of birth, not conception," he {Kevin Paulson} concluded.

I do believe Mr Paulson is in error in his conclusion above. EGW considered the unborn child to be a separate life from the mother. She considered the mother and unborn baby to be "two lives."

The mother's physical needs should in no case be neglected. Two lives are depending upon her, and her wishes should be tenderly regarded, her needs generously supplied. But at this time above all others she should avoid, in diet and in every other line, whatever would lessen physical or mental strength. By the command of God Himself she is placed under the most solemn obligation to exercise self-control.--MH 373 (1905). {1MCP 133.1}

The thoughts and feelings of the mother will have a powerful influence upon the legacy she gives her child. If she allows her mind to dwell upon her own feelings, if she indulges in selfishness, if she is peevish and exacting, the disposition of her child will testify to the fact. Thus many have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil.--ST, Sept 13, 1910. (Te 171.) {1MCP 132.1}

-If the mother is deprived of the care and comforts she should have, if she is allowed to exhaust her strength through overwork or through anxiety and gloom, her children will be robbed of the vital force and of the mental elasticity and cheerful buoyancy they should inherit. Far better will it be to make the mother's life bright and cheerful, to shield her from want, wearing labor, and depressing care, and let the children inherit good constitutions so that they may battle their way through life with their own energetic strength.-- MH 375 (1905). {1MCP 132.5}

Thanks for those quotes. In addition, consider what Ellen stated about almost murdering an unborn child. Can we imagine what she would have said about the actual murder of hundreds of unborn babies in our own Adventist hospitals?

Quote: "If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them." [White. Selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.]

[teresaq]

Quote:

"Many [Adventists] are forming opinions about abortion," he wrote, "not from the study of Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen G. White's) writings, but from listening to popular Christian leaders like James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Franky Schaeffer, and Bill Gothard," all of whom oppose abortion.

Very good point.

I agree. I personally haven't seen much real seeking the Lord's will on the part of "pro-lifers". They feel it is wrong, period.

I also have a problem with the methods used to inflict their will on those opposed or uninterested. UnChristlike at best, the methods of Satan at worst. Jesus always gave people a choice of whether they would follow Him or not. In the end God will allow people the choice of whether they will inflict a sunday law or not.

Those who choose to force others according to their will always look to make laws to do so.

[Dr. Shane]

Now you see teresa, sometimes we agree on things.

xx

[teresaq]

lol.

But I do need to say that I'm sure there are those who honestly believe abortion to be wrong but are not trying to inflict their will on anyone...I need to be careful not to lump all together with the most "vocal".

[Dr. Shane]

I believe over 90% of abortions are wrong.

But we have to first address the issue from either a religious perspective or a civil perspective and not get the two mixed up.

When we address it from the religious perspective we are talking about how the church should deal with it. For example: should Adventist doctors that perform certain kinds of abortions be disciplined by the church?

When we address it from a civil perspective we are talking about how the civil government should deal with abortion. For example, passing parent consent laws or mandatory pre-abortion counseling laws.

[doug yowell]

Now you see teresa, sometimes we agree on things.

xx

As did Pilate and Herod eventually.Agreement is not always a test of making the right call.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Now you see teresa, sometimes we agree on things.

xx

As did Pilate and Herod eventually.Agreement is not always a test of making the right call.

[doug yowell]

Address the argument, not the person.

I did. You and Shane agree but are wrong.

[doug yowell]

"Many [Adventists] are forming opinions about abortion," he wrote, "not from the study of Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen G. White's) writings, but from listening to popular Christian leaders like James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Franky Schaeffer, and Bill Gothard," all of whom oppose abortion.

So, you disagree?

Absolutely. I addressed this on page 1 of this thread.I can expand further if anyone is interested.Paulson is a pretty smart guy but his pro-choice agenda has rendered him reason challenged on this issue.Basically,He's just written that the Bible and the SOP are silent on abortion and then criticizes SDA's for not forming their opinions about it by reading the Bible and the SOP in order to form those opinions about abortion which neither the Bible and the SOP has stated opinions about.Paulson's going somewhere with his argument,but not to the Bible and the SOP.

[Nic Samojluk]

Teresaq said: “I personally haven't seen much real seeking the Lord's will on the part of "pro-lifers". They feel it is wrong, period.”

Nic responds: How could you have seen pro-lifers seeking the Lords will? Pro-lifers do not seek the Lord to be seen in public, but rather in private on their knees and with their Bibles at their private homes. That is the method outlined by Jesus!

Teresaq said: “I also have a problem with the methods used to inflict their will on those opposed or uninterested.

Nic responds: I have no idea about the identity of the pro-lifers you personally know. Those I know do not fit your description.

Teresaq said: “UnChristlike at best, the methods of Satan at worst.”

Nic responds: You may not be aware of this, but when an opponent starts attacking the character of those who disagree with him/her, it is a sign that he/she has no good argument in defense of his/her position. I suggest that you tone down your characterization of those who see this issue from a different perspective. Remember that the enemies of Jesus attributed his work to demon possession. Ellen White states that those who do this are sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Teresaq said: “Those who choose to force others according to their will always look to make laws to do so.”

Nic responds: Aren’t you doing exactly what you are condemning? You are attempting to force your personal opinion on others. The Lord gives us our freedom of choice, but there are serious consequences if we depart from God’s will. The Bible tells us: “Choose life.” We are free to choose death, but if we do, we will be the losers together with those who might be influenced by our wrong choice. Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, and look what happened.

Pro-lifers have no power to force their views on others. The most they can do is to speak in defense of those destined to the slaughter house. Since when it is a cardinal sin to speak on behalf of the innocent? If we have the right to take the life of those who are guilty of no crime, then should we not be free also to commit other moral crimes like rape, burglary, grand theft, and sexual abuse of little children. Why has the government decided to give us license to kill the unborn, but will put us in jail if we rape, steal, and sexually abuse little children?

A stolen car can be replaced, a victim of rape can heal with the Lord’s help and eventually lead an almost normal life; but the victim of abortion will never heal. Have you considered the irreversible effects of abortion?

[Nic Samojluk]

Paulson is a pretty smart guy but his pro-choice agenda has rendered him reason challenged on this issue.Basically,He's just written that the Bible and the SOP are silent on abortion and then criticizes SDA's for not forming their opinions about it by reading the Bible and the SOP in order to form those opinions about abortion which neither the Bible and the SOP has stated opinions about.Paulson's going somewhere with his argument,but not to the Bible and the SOP.

Paulson is wrong on the issue of abortion. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White are silent on this issue. Ellen White did state that men who neglect the health of a pregnant woman are “almost guilty of murder.” If she condemned the action of those guilty of “almost murder,” can we conclude that she would condone the actual murder?

If neglecting the welfare of an unborn baby is wrong, can we deduce that killing the baby is right? Ellen did not use the tem “abortion” in her writing, but suggesting that she did not address the issue of the unborn’s right to welfare and life is a sign of careless and defective scholarship.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Paulson is a pretty smart guy but his pro-choice agenda has rendered him reason challenged on this issue.Basically,He's just written that the Bible and the SOP are silent on abortion and then criticizes SDA's for not forming their opinions about it by reading the Bible and the SOP in order to form those opinions about abortion which neither the Bible and the SOP has stated opinions about.Paulson's going somewhere with his argument,but not to the Bible and the SOP.

Paulson is wrong on the issue of abortion. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White are silent on this issue.

Of course this is true. Only those who argue from "silence" seem to (strangely enough) base their opinions on what the Bible and EGW really meant.This is the tactic taken by SDA pro-choice/pro-abortion apologists.This clever(???)approach is never used by those who support abortion rights to apply to themselves.Neither do they consider the gravity of their assertions.

[teresaq]

Why do you believe we are wrong?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

"Many [Adventists] are forming opinions about abortion," he wrote, "not from the study of Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen G. White's) writings, but from listening to popular Christian leaders like James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Franky Schaeffer, and Bill Gothard," all of whom oppose abortion.

So, you disagree?

Absolutely. I addressed this on page 1 of this thread.I can expand further if anyone is interested.Paulson is a pretty smart guy but his pro-choice agenda has rendered him reason challenged on this issue.Basically,He's just written that the Bible and the SOP are silent on abortion and then criticizes SDA's for not forming their opinions about it by reading the Bible and the SOP in order to form those opinions about abortion which neither the Bible and the SOP has stated opinions about.Paulson's going somewhere with his argument,but not to the Bible and the SOP.

And we need to remember that neither the Bible nor Ellen White were silent on abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

Why do you believe we are wrong?

Who is “we” and what is your position on abortion?

[teresaq]

And we need to remember that neither the Bible nor Ellen White were silent on abortion.

That's strange...I have never seen abortion mentioned in the bible, definitely not by Jesus, nor his disciples as they roamed the world where infanticide as well as abortion was rampant.

But as the church moved away from its purity it started in on abortion and homosexuality.

As for Ellen White, her statements have to misapplied to make them refer to abortion.

[teresaq]

I now leave you to your agenda. i personally see no sense in arguing back and forth since we both have made up our minds.

Again, not addressed to Tammy. I don't know why that pops up...

[Nic Samojluk]

Teresaq said: “That's strange...I have never seen abortion mentioned in the bible”

I say: Do you know when the term “abortion” was coined? Let me illustrate this as follows: Can you find terms like “therapeutic abortion,” “elective abortions,” and “pregnancy interruption,” in the 18th century literature?

Can you find in the Bible references to “manslaughter,” “first degree murder,” and “second degree murder? Does this mean that those crimes were acceptable in OT times?

What was the most common way of reference to the killing of innocent human beings in the Old Testament? Wasn’t it “shedding of innocent blood”? How many abortions are done without the shedding of innocent blood?

Quote: “For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.” [2 Kings 24:4]

Quote: “They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.” [Psalm 106:38]

Quote: “Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed.” [Deut. 19:10]

Quote: “Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end--besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD.” [2 Kings 21:16]

Quote: “Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.” [is. 59:7]

Quote: “You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.” [Deut.19:13]

And remember that there are 37 additional passages in Scripture condemning the shedding of innocent blood!

Doesn’t the Sixth Commandment condemn murder? How is murder defined? Isn’t it defined as the killing of an innocent human being? Are the unborn human beings or not? If not, then what are they? How many abortions can be performed without killing the unborn baby?

The Bible is very clear about the evil of killing the innocent, and if unborn babies don’t qualify as innocent, who can then qualify? There is a saying in Spanish which goes like this: “No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver.” There is no worst blind than the one who refuses to see.

Teresaq said: “definitely not by Jesus, nor his disciples as they roamed the world where infanticide as well as abortion was rampant.”

I say: Is silence the best excuse you can find to justify the murder of innocents? Does the Bible condemn slavery, polygamy, easy divorce, or genocide. Does this mean that I am free to take a few concubines like David and Solomon? How about a few slaves? Have you read what Jesus said about “the least of these”? Didn’t he say that our eternal destiny will be determined on how we treat “the least”? Can you imagine any group of human beings more deserving of the “the least” term than the unborn?

Teresaq said: “But as the church moved away from its purity it started in on abortion and homosexuality.”

I say: Have you heard about an early Christian document named the “Didache” which condemns abortion, or the other one adopted by Christians which survived for two millennia called the Hippocratic Oath??

Quote: “I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion” [from the Hippocratic Oath http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html ]

Teresaq said: “As for Ellen White, her statements have to misapplied to make them refer to abortion.”

I say: Misapplied? Read what she said about a man who neglects the health of a pregnant woman:

"If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them." [White. Selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.]

If neglecting the health of the mother was equivalent to “almost murder” for Ellen White can we conclude that the actual killing of an unborn baby would have been morally justified by her?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

And we need to remember that neither the Bible nor Ellen White were silent on abortion.

That's strange...I have never seen abortion mentioned in the bible, definitely not by Jesus, nor his disciples as they roamed the world where infanticide as well as abortion was rampant.

But as the church moved away from its purity it started in on abortion and homosexuality.

As for Ellen White, her statements have to misapplied to make them refer to abortion.

In addition, I trust those aborted babies in the hands of A loving God Who knows what to do with them...just as I trust all others who have died by whatever means in His hands...

[Dr. Shane]

In another thread, it was revealed that Ted Wilson recently commented on this Washington Post article by saying that abortion on demand is not provided at Adventist hospitals. The problem is that extremists don't want to allow abortion except for the most extreme cases.

[Nic Samojluk]

I do too! Does this mean that we are guiltless if we start killing human beings Rwanda style because we can trust God who knows what to do with them? Are we guiltless if we destroy human life simply because God knows what to do with those deprived of life? Doesn't the church need to repent of this terible sin?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I trust those aborted babies in the hands of A loving God Who knows what to do with them...just as I trust all others who have died by whatever means in His hands...

I do too! Does this mean that we are guiltless if we start killing human beings Rwanda style because we can trust God who knows what to do with them? Are we guiltless if we destroy human life simply because God knows what to do with those deprived of life? Doesn't the church need to repent of this terible sin?

What terrible sin?

Following the example of Jesus and His disciples?