Death Is Inevitable - Life Is Not

[Tom Wetmore]

Until the riddle of death is solved, life is pointlessly temporary. What is the meaning of life?

[Woody]

Woody likes

[Bravus]

I don't think I agree with the thesis statement. Life is precisely as meaningful as we decide it is. Nothing is meaningful or meaningless but thinking makes it so (to shamelessly distort Shakespeare). If *we* decide life that ends at death is meaningless, then it is - and vice versa.

[Sonny]

You never know when your time is up...only God knows. Hence, what's important is eternity, right?

[fccool]

Bravus,

Perhaps in terms of personal understanding it would be, but not in terms of objective accomplishment. Generally as people, we don't stand around thinking 2+2=4 .... what does that mean? It's silly. 2+2=4 means that 2+2=4. It's really as simple as that.

The function of life is to live

The function of existence is to exist

We can't separate meaning from function. Gastrotich lives 3-5 days. Tortouse lives for 170++ years. Presence of death does not turn any life into meaningful or meaningless. It's simply end of life. We could be asking the same question about infinite lifespan. What's more meaningful about infinite life-span than a limited one?

[Gail]

Would it be too much of a stretch to imagine that there may be a purpose for our existance? I mean, our natural existential part may focus on the end but what about living our life as if IT mattered and not the death part?

Is this a half empty/half full matter of choice?

[abelisle]

Life has meaning through the quality and nature of the choices we make on a daily basis. Meaning therefore is hostage to the individual and his/her choices.

Life might be temporarily without meaning in the spaces between the choices?

But all of this takes on two different routes if we believe or don't believe in the existence of God. Without God life can be assumed to be pointlessly temporary until we die and with God pointlessly infinite after death

Ever thought how we will occupy our time if we live for infinity?

Alex

P.S. Just read fccool's statement which parallels mine about infinite life - sorry.

[Bravus]

fccool and Gail, I'm not sure 'meaning' relates directly to either 'purpose' or 'function'. A spanner has both purpose and function, but doesn't post on forums wondering about meaning...

Meaning is something different, and I think Alex is also saying, in slightly different words, that it's something we actively create for ourselves. And, IMO, it doesn't depend on the length of our lives. A life of a few years, of a child who dies young, can be as meaningful as the life of an octogenarian - more so if the latter chooses to leave a meaningless life.

Perhaps it's time for a re-read of the Book of Ecclesiastes, where one of the wisest men who ever lived wrestles with just these questions.

[Tom Wetmore]

The riddle of death is the topic - life is not. The meaning of life hangs in the balance since death is the inevitable equalizer that ends all life as we know it. If life ends does death have any meaning? Once the riddle of death is resolved, life will be too. Then the question can be answered.

[abelisle]

When my father died last month I asked myself that question: "what is the meaning of death?"

For me the answer was that (at least for me and my father) his death brought happiness because he was in a better place than he was while in his nursing home. Even if God doesn't exist and his death was a finality, it (death) was a gateway to not knowing and having any more suffering.

I think Buddhism has it right when they assert that life is suffering and death is a release. Maybe Paul meant more than we understand when he said we must die daily?

Alex

[Bravus]

On the riddle of death, I have said before in Origins discussions that I think Christianity gets it wrong, and perhaps Judaism had it right.

Christianity claims immortality is our natural state and death is an aberration to be fought at all costs. I would say, instead, that life and death are natural processes. God can intervene supernaturally and give us eternal life, whether using the Tree of Life or some other intervention, but death is a perfectly natural part of life. Our entire ecosystem only functions through some things dying so that others may live. (Which could be in itself a 'type of Christ', but that's a larger discussion.)

Regarding death as a natural part of life - albeit one that inevitably hurts those left behind when it comes - we come to terms with it in a much more healthy way.

I still don't necessarily agree with your opening premise, Tom: that life is meaningless until we have solved the puzzle of death. But I do think it's easier to get past our sick obsessions with death and think about the meaning of life when we realise that they're essentially the same thing.

[Bravus]

I don't think you'd end up with reincarnation, at least in the sense of consciousness and 'past lives' and such. The change would be more that your body would decay and dissolve into the earth, and those chemical elements - which started out their journeys in the hearts of supernovas - would move on to plants and animals and the earth and other living things. Under such a view there are two - no, three - forms of immortality (neither conscious):

1. that process of your component parts coming from and then returning to the Great Chain of Being represented by the complex interlocking systems of our ecosystem

2. the passing on of your DNA - and so much more - to your offspring

3. the passing on of ideas and other contributions to human society - work you've done, wealth you've built, books you've written, paintings you've painted

4. (OK, one more) the memories you leave in the minds of all those you've touched

In the light of these forms of immortality, life is meaningful even if it turns out there is no resurrection. I believe and hope there is, but if it turns out there isn't, I don't want to have wasted my life pining for it.

[phkrause]

I have to agree with your post CoAspen. Since me and my wife are basically raising our gs, death (or going to my rest, as I like to look at it) isn't that appealing, not that its ever been appealing. But I'd like to be around as he grows up.

[Tom Wetmore]

Contemplating ones own death can be a life changing perspective. Why is that?

However, that perspective depends on how one resolves the riddle of death. Consider the possiblities.

[Gail]

Nobody really wants to die, for some reason. The desire to live forever (or just not die) seems ingrained in us.

[Tom Wetmore]

Maybe it is that resistence to the inevitable unknown that has lead to so many cultures and religions down through the ages to try so hard to turn death into anything but the end of life.

[cardw]

I think Viktor Frankl in his book "Man's Search for Meaning" really explored this when he was in a German prison camp. He noticed that when life there lost its meaning that people died soon after.

He made the observation that meaning is unconditional and is not derived from reasoning.

The Course in Miracles does an interesting thought experiment in which one says the following phrase after you fill in the blank with what ever idea or object you want.

<blank> has no meaning other than what I assign to it.

It is interesting to note ones emotional reaction to different things one can place in the blank.

[Bravus]

Coincidentally, I'm supervising a PhD student who is basing his work on Frankl.

[cardw]

Frankl's book and method has been very helpful to me in determining what I value and enjoy in life.

His books are dynamic and passionate. When he spoke in person you could hear in his voice the effects of the trauma experienced within the prison camp.

His voice is very monotone and he doesn't express much emotion. To reawaken a person from within the post traumatic freeze is one of the most challenging puzzles.

He noted that when the gates were opened by the Americans the prisoners had an interesting response. They had to go an sit on their bunks to allow the reality to sink in. They couldn't step past the threshold of the gate initially. They had repressed feeling anything for so long that it was difficult to even face their own redemption.

Eventually he observed a number of reactions. Some people raged and others sobbed and others stayed frozen. Even among the German guards there were emotional reactions. Some got on their knees and plead for forgiveness and others stood numbly by.

[Sonny]

Life and death are natural processes? Here, yes...in God's universe, no! Mortality & death are the results of sin. The Bible is very clear on this point.