Are Humans Free Moral Agents?

[miz3]

Doug,

You just made my point. God makes us free. It does not say that once we are free from the sinful nature and/or sin that we are on our own. The sun shines only because maintains its freedom to shine. Without God's continuous power in the sun the sun would cease to exist. The same is true for us. If God does not continue to appropriate His power in us constantly causing us to do good we would never ever be able to good. Remember John 15:5 "without me you can do nothing".

Read some of the earlier posts that cover the texts you quote.

Read the context of John chapter 7. Jesus Christ is saying that He never says or does anything on His own but does only what the Father tells Him. In verse 17 he challenges the Jews by stating if anyone really wants to know if what I say is true they will have God in them. The reason they do not know the Truth is because God is not in them. In addition because God is not in them they also do not know that Jesus Christ speaks the Truth.

John chapter seven is not about humans being "free moral agents" it is about having God as the source of your knowledge. Read it all don't just pull phrase out of context.

[karl]

As much as we would like to excuse ourselves from participation in the salvation process, unless we claim to be calvinists or universalists we come to the realization that we must cooperate. We must be yoked up with God in the salvation work - both the salvation of others and the salvation of ourselves. We must open to Christ's knock. We must strive to enter in at the straight gate. We must die daily - hunger and thirst for Christ's righteousness. We must look and live.

All this is clearly impossible in our own unaided strength. With man this is simply not possible, but WITH God, all things are possible. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling for it is GOD who worketh in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. I abide in Christ, for without Him I can do nothing.

Did Christ begin the work in me? Absolutely. Does He continue it to completion without my cooperation? Not a chance.

[miz3]

Karl,

I am sorry to tell you this but you are speaking out of both sides of you mouth. You are trying to have it both ways. It is a very, very hard thing for the human entity to swallow its pride and its desire to be at the center of everything. The Pharisees of Christ's day suffered horribly from the same disease.

You read the Bible and keep inserting your own desires into the text.

I do not care what the Calvinists or the Universalists say. The only thing relevant to me is what God says in His Word, the Bible! We cannot add or take away anything from that Word just because we don't like it or it does not fit what we have always believed to be true. We cannot alter or play fancy word games with God's Word just so we won't be labeled Calvinists or some other undesired label.

[skyblue888]

Sky,

The debate is interesting. However, they both are not in line with what Scripture says. 2Corinthians 9:8 states that through and through all of it, it is the work of God in us that produces and not the work of humans plus God.

Philippians 1:6 says that the work GOD BEGAN IN US HE WILL ALSO CARRY US TO ITS COMPLETION (my paraphrase). Read the text itself. God not only starts the work in us but God completes the work in us. It is God from beginning to end. Doesn't Revelation tell us that God is the "alpha and the omega" that is the beginning and the end.

Thus, Scripture never ever supports that it is human will of any shape, form, or kind at any point whatsoever.

Remember in the beginning "God formed man from the dust of the ground". Did God form us and then we breathed or did the rest? No we were just a form of dirt until God breathed in us the "breath of Life". We live because God did it all in the physical world and same is true in the Spiritual World. We live spiritually because God does it all for us.

Thanks for adding good stuff to the dialogue.

miz3, methinks you ought to read that debate again. It says exactly what you just posted. I posted it so you would see that it was in harmony with what you stated previously!

sky :)

[John317]

We choose whether to accept Christ or not. God gives us the desire for Him and for Jesus, but we are able to resist or accept what God gives us. His grace is not irresistable. The Holy Spirit will leave us if we want Him to.

John 1:12-13

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

NOTE: Becoming a child of God is not because of our will, but we do choose to accept or reject Christ. None of us can believe in Christ without the help of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit can't and won't make the choice for us to accept Christ.

Gen. 1: 26 shows us that God created Adam with the power of choice:

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Then God gave Adam and Eve a choice that shows that He made humans with the power to choose betwween two alternatives:

Genesis 2:16-17

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, [17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

The story of the Fall, as narrated in Genesis 3, would make absolutely no sense if Adam and Eve hadn't been free to choose whether to eat or not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

At the end of the Bible, we have an appeal that would make absolutely no sense if people lack any ability to choose:

Rev. 22:17

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires (or wills, chooses) take the water of life without price.

NOTE: the word translated "desires," is from the Greek word, thelo (Strongs#2309), and means "to exercise the will." It is translated "to choose" in Luke 1: 62.

And then there is this warning that makes no sense if people lack the ability to choose:

Rev. 22:18-19

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, [19] and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The bottom line for me is that the Bible does not support the idea that God punishes people for things they have no control over. If people can choose to do good, they can also chose to do evil.

By the way, did you choose to post on the Fourm or are you here by no choice of your own?

[John317]

The answer to your original question is yes. The whole Bible, as well as human society itself, would make no sense if people have no ability to choose. I think the greatest proof of man's ability to choose is the cross of Christ. By it God guaranteed man's freedom to choose Him or reject Him. The cross draws all people to Christ, but it is obvious that not all people will accept the drawing power of the cross. Most choose to resist it.

[miz3]

Good try John 317.

The Bible does not support that we have choice. However, the Bible does support that we can REJECT HIM. Hebrews chapter 2 states that we REJECT OR IGNORE God's Salvation for us. In addition it is God working in us by the Holy Spirit that causes us to "believe". We do not believe by our own volition and strength.

Genesis 1:26 says nothing about "free moral agency".

Next you quote Genesis 2 and the tree test. That does count because the human entity was at that time a slave to the sinful nature. The particulars of the human entity were completely different and so the same rules do not apply. Did humans have "free moral agency" in the sinless state? I don't know. The Bible does not say. We could have had it. Thus, you cannot point to the sinLESS state to prove something that is completely different in the sinFUL state.

The problem with Revelation 22 is that it does not prove one way or the other. Those REJECT GOD don't hear what God is saying because as John chapter 3 states humans REJECT THE LIGHT because they love darkness.

The basis on which people are saved or lost is not totally on what they do or not do. Read the parables in the Gospels where the Bridegroom states to those that are lost "I don't know you". See Matthew 7 when those that did marvelous things in God's Name are told by God they are lost. Yet God still rewards the saved on the basis of what His power did in them.

Again, be careful not to add or twist what God's Word says. You quoted in Revelation chapter 22. Heed your quotes, John 317!

[John317]

I can see now why this question or issue has been bugging you for so many years. My guess is that it will continue to bug you for many more years to come.

You say the Bible doesn't support that we have a choice. It seems to me our discussion will be hopeless unless we are using the word "choice" in the same way.

Here's the dictionary on the meaning of "choice":

Quote:

noun, adjective, choic·er, choic·est.

–noun

1. an act or instance of choosing; selection: Her choice of a computer was made after months of research. His parents were not happy with his choice of friends.

2. the right, power, or opportunity to choose; option: The child had no choice about going to school.

3. the person or thing chosen or eligible to be chosen: This book is my choice. He is one of many choices for the award.

4. an alternative: There is another choice.

5. an abundance or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of candidates.

6. something that is preferred or preferable to others; the best part of something: Mare's Nest is the choice in the sixth race.

7. a carefully selected supply: This restaurant has a fine choice of wines.

8. a choice grade of beef.

–adjective

9. worthy of being chosen; excellent; superior.

10. carefully selected: choice words.

11. (in the grading of beef in the U.S.) rated between prime and good.

—Idiom

12. of choice, that is generally preferred: A detached house is still the home of choice.

Origin:

1250–1300; Middle English chois < Old French, derivative of choisir to perceive, choose < Germanic; see choose

—Related forms

choice·less, adjective

choice·ly, adverb

choice·ness, noun

pre·choice, noun

—Synonyms

2. Choice, alternative, option, preference all suggest the power of choosing between things. Choice implies the opportunity to choose: a choice of evils. Alternative suggests that one has a choice between only two possibilities. It is often used with a negative to mean that there is no second possibility: to have no alternative. Option emphasizes free right or privilege of choosing: to exercise one's option. Preference applies to a choice based on liking or partiality: to state a preference. 9. select

Are you claiming that the Bible teaches we have no ability to make a selection-- that is, to choose between two or more alternatives?

Let's look at it this way: If I go up and slap you in the face for apparently no reason, aren't you going to ask me why I did it? That whole question assumes that there was a choice made, right? Even if you ask me "what made you do it," you are seeking to understand my motive for doing it.That is, you are asking me why I chose to move my hand in such a way as to strike your face. Now what if I tell you that I had no control over what happened and that I'm not in any way responsible for your getting slapped? Would you accept my answer as reasonable and true?

[LifeHiscost]

Olger,

The machinery to "turn" comes from God. Humans have no capacity within themselves to "turn". The unfortunate thing is that many humans REJECT the power from God to "turn".

John chapter 15 verses 1-5 state that without God (Jesus Christ)"we can do nothing"! Nothing means nothing. It does not mean you do a little and God does a lot.

See also Romans chapter 11 and Ephesians 2 the first 10 verses. These texts state that it is God's work not human work or human "choice" or human "turn". This way only God can boast. If we are able to by the "machinery of free choice" and/or the machinery of "free moral agency" than we can boast that we did something even if that something is the smallest of small.

I need more and it must be clear and unambiguous. Thanks for you help.

Realistically, everything you have repeated here is true. However there are some things God has passed on to those willing to accept what He has promised to give them, the same as you wouldn't be breathing now were it not for the continual

sacrifice of your mother after you were born. For all of God's children, it becomes a fact after we are born again.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."Philippians 4:13 NKJV

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."Galatians 2:20 KJV

If none of this were an indication of their doing something, there would have been no honoring to be recongnized later on.

"In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father."Matthew 5:17 NLT

Notice it says, your good deeds. It is recognized that it is Christ in you, the hope of glory that allows the capabilities. But our Father shares His power by giving it to us, as ours, through His grace.

God blesses!

[John317]

Genesis 1:26 says nothing about "free moral agency".

Here's Gen.1: 26:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

NOTE: Notice the distinction between man and the animals. Man has "dominion." We were made in God's image, after the likeness of God Himself. God is obviously a free moral agent.

Quote:

do·min·ion&#8194; &#8194;/d&#601;&#712;m&#618;ny&#601;n/ Show Spelled

[duh-min-yuhn] Show IPA

–noun

1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.

2. rule; control; domination.

3. a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.

4. lands or domains subject to sovereignty or control.

5. Government . a territory constituting a self-governing commonwealth and being one of a number of such territories united in a community of nations, or empire: formerly applied to self-governing divisions of the British Empire, as canada and New Zealand.

6. dominions, Theology . domination ( def. 3 ) .

Use dominion in a Sentence

See images of dominion

Search dominion on the Web

Origin:

1400–50; late Middle English < Middle French < Medieval Latin *domini&#333;n- (stem of *domini&#333; ) lordship, equivalent to Latin domin ( ium ) dominium + -i&#333;n- -ion

Having "dominion" means ruling, governing, controlling, having domination. I find it hard to imagine Adam having dominion without being a free moral agent. God's telling Adam that he would have dominion was the same as saying that he was being put in charge of the animals. Adam was to be "lord," or master, owner, ruler, king. How could Adam and other humans fulfill their responsbilities if they weren't free to choose?

Notice that Adam's first responsibility was to name the animals. This certainly required choices.

Or do yoiu think that God pre-determined what Adam would name the animals?

[miz3]

John 317,

The issue is not merely on the basis of the word "choice". As I said before of course we choose. We choose what to wear, we choose what to eat, etc. It is a question of how free is that choice. Do we make the choice because of "what we are" or do we make the choice as "free moral agents"? As Jesus Christ points out in Matthew chapter 7 you don't get grapes from a thorn bush. The thorn bush produces thorns because it is a thorn bush. It can do nothing else. The thorn bush is what it is. It has a built in bias that causes it to produce thorns and not produce grapes.

Humans are the same way. We are born in sin and we only know how to produce sinful "fruit". We cannot do anything else (just like the thorn bush). Every choice we make is made with the sinful bias (Paul calls it the sinful nature, or flesh) as the default decider of what we do. We cannot help it. Thus any "choice" we make is NOT FREE!!!!!! We are a slave to whoever or whatever controls us. As Paul repeatedly points in the Book of Romans we are either the slaves of the sinful nature or we are the slaves of the God. Because of what Jesus Christ did on the Cross we now have ALL (See Romans 5 where it states that every human who ever lives on this planet has been Justified and now belongs to Jesus Christ) become slaves to a new master, Jesus Christ.

As Paul so clearly states in Romans chapter 5 that our Justification was done without our consent. God did it by fiat! Justification is all we need to be saved. Since all have been Justified the question is, "Why are we not all saved"?

This is where Hebrews chapter 2 comes in. Paul (if Paul wrote Hebrews, no one knows for sure) states it as a question. The question is, "How can we REJECT (IGNORE) so great a Salvation"? Salvation is a gift. Salvation was not given to us because we "decided" or we "asked" or anything like such. Salvation is a gift given to us humans as a gift without anything of our part involved whatsoever.

It is amazing how hard this concept is for humans to swallow. The Bible is clear as I have in the many texts I have referenced and more that I have not referenced that God did everything for us and without any part of us through Jesus Christ.

It is our stupid sinful nature that constantly wants to get in on the act and therefore receive at least some credit for what has been done.

As to your reference in Genesis chapter one that was before the "fall". The sinLESS state as I have pointed in previous responses is different from the sinFUL state. These "states of being" operate under different rules. You cannot then reference texts that occurred before sin to prove a humans state that occurs after sin. The humans entity is clearly not the same and does not operate under the same rules.

[John317]

Check out this link:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post433439

Compare those pictures with the one below, showing me as I am today:

[John317]

If I believed your idea that we are not free moral agents and able to choose, I never would have made the choice to leave those practices. I would have gone ahead with the Gender Reassignment Surgery. Today I could still go back to that life, but I CHOOSE not to. I choose this every day, sometimes I choose every minute. I'm choosing right now, even as I write.

[miz3]

John 317,

We all pasts filled with horrid sinfulness. Paul states that in many places of his writings. We however, can thank God and God alone that we are no longer under the power of sin. Romans chapter 7 Paul talked about freedom from the sinful nature and in Romans chapter 8 Paul celebrates that freedom because of what God does through His Holy Spirit. It was not you that caused the change. You are different today from what you were because of what God did in you. God changed you, you did not change yourself. On the surface it may appear that you did this or you did that but it was God in you that made those changes. Thank God for that and thank God that you did not REJECT His Work in you.

Why do you want to take the credit for your change and rob God of His glory? By saying that it is your choice you make my point in saying that it is the sinful nature that is taking credit that belongs only to God.

The Bible as I have quoted it states in the clearest of language that it is not you but God in you doing the work that makes you a different person. As a different person it is also clear that you now produce different fruit. Instead of producing thorns you are now producing fruit. You would not and could not in any way produce good fruit if it were not for God's work in you.

Give no glory or credit to yourself but instead give it to God.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

We already covered what Deuteronomy 30 is. Go back and see that it is not talking to people who are "free moral agents". Are there choices? Yes of course there are choices. The fact that one has a choice does not in of itself make one a "free moral agent". As we have already established we decide based on what we are a slave to.

You have established absolutely nothing! Lucifer was God's slave, yet he chose to go against his Master. Ditto A & E.

Luther was subservient to Rome, yet he chose against it.

You are confusing the freedom to choose and the ability/power to carry it out. As Paul said, NASB95 | Ro 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

Quote:

Second the fact that your body is the temple of God (Holy Spirit) does not dictate that smoking is a sin. Do you hurt your body when you eat all that sugar at Sabbath pot luck? Do you hurt your body when you do not get enough sleep? Do you hurt your body eating this or that? Do you keep a micrometer list so that you take in exactly only the "good" stuff your body requires? We could make an endless list. Just how good are you at keeping your body in perfect shape to be the temple of God? In this regard I suspect that all humans have their hypocrisy showing. So we cannot use this text to state that smoking or doing drugs or whatever is a sin. We can only speak for ourselves as to whether or not it is a sin (see Romans chapter 14)!We can however point out the damage that is true fact to those who do such things will face.

Nice trick. Exaggerate and make something ridiculous, or contract and make it small and insignificant, but no dice. The principle is to live healthfully and not go to the ridiculous extreme of measuring the amount consumed. If you are obese and trying to lose weight, yeah, you may have to resort to measuring the amount consumed. Healthful living is to stay away from what is positively harmful, and be moderate on what is good!

Quote:

One becomes a slave of the sinful nature simply by being conceived. Paul in Romans and in his other writings explicitly states so. One becomes a slave of Jesus Christ by not REJECTING THE HOLY SPIRIT who will indeed come to us as a gift from God into you to make changes (see John chapter 3 and Romans 7 & 8 and Ephesians 2:1-10). See also 1Corinthians 6:19-20 which states that the Holy Spirit is already in us. See also 2Corinthians 1:22 and 1Corinthians 7:23. As Ephesians chapter 2 states it is God's work alone so that no one can boast. Read it for yourself.

If those born of the sinful nature have no freedom to choose, then they are NOT responsible nor accountable for their actions, therefore not subject to judgment. That simply is not the case. Show from Scripture where ANYONE becomes a slave of God by default and not by choice. Rejecting the Holy Spirit is itself a choice. Covenant or love relationships are not entered into by default. These are conscious choices. The works of God in the believer are not done in a passive believer; these are done with active cooperation. As Paul said, NIV84 | 1 Co 9:27 "No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

[skyblue888]

"Most certain it has never yet been maintained that an apple is produced solely by the sun. Well then, said the opponents, plunging deeper into this important and delicate question of philosophy and religion, let us inquire how God acts upon man, and how man conducts himself under this action. “I acknowledge,” said Eck, “that the first impulse in man’s conversion proceeds from God, and that the will of man in this instance is entirely passive.” Thus far the two parties were agreed. “I acknowledge,” said Carlstadt, “that after this first impulse which proceeds from God, something must come on the part of man, — something that St. Paul denominates will, and which the fathers entitle consent.” Here again they were both agreed: but from this point they diverged. “This consent of man,” said Eck, “comes partly from our natural will, and partly from God’s grace.” — “No,” said Carlstadt, “God must entirely create this will in man.” —

Would you please comment on the above, especially the last sentence.

thank you.

sky

[miz3]

Gerry,

You obviously have not read Romans chapter 9 where Paul covers this very concept. He states that God can and does hold us accountable for what we had no choice in. The fact is that God by fiat passed on to us sin and death even before any of us were born. We did not "choose" to be born sinful. God made us to be sinful because of what Adam did.

"12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12-21.

Because of Adam we are condemned and because of Jesus Christ we are Justified. No choice just fiat on the part of God. Highlight verse 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!

" 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Paul quotes Exodus 33:19]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:14-24

Again, God is acting by fiat. As the text states in verse 16 it does not depend on "man's desire or effort but on God's mercy". Paul then covers your question (verses 19-21)of why blame us if we had no part in "choosing" sin?

As Paul states emphatically "who are we to challenge God as to what He does". God can and does what He jolly wants to. After all He is God. We are not God's equal that we can demand that He operate in a certain way that seems "fair" and "just" by our definitions. God is not bound by our views of what is right, or what is just, or what is fair. God and God alone decides what is and what is not. God is not bound by anything. If God were bound by anything then He would not be God. The thing that binds Him would then be God because He would be subject and bound to do and decide based on that thing. Is that where you want to go?

I have given you text after text and all you can do is use human logic, human definitions of fairness, texts that have nothing to do with "free moral agency". Is the basis on which your Truth lies?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: miz3

We already covered what Deuteronomy 30 is. Go back and see that it is not talking to people who are "free moral agents". Are there choices? Yes of course there are choices. The fact that one has a choice does not in of itself make one a "free moral agent". As we have already established we decide based on what we are a slave to.

You are confusing the freedom to choose and the ability/power to carry it out. As Paul said, NASB95 | Ro 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

Gerry's right. You're playing a shell game with words and meanings.Like it or not it's the same approach that is taken by every Calvinist apologist, and using some of the same arguments.That's OK but just not original.Give us a definition of exactly what you feel the Bible describes a free moral agent as being.

[miz3]

Doug,

Read what I just wrote to Gerry. Also read his last question just before that.

[John317]

Gerry,

You obviously have not read Romans chapter 9 where Paul covers this very concept. He states that God can and does hold us accountable for what we had no choice in.

Could you please point out the parts of Romans 9 where you believe it teaches that God holds people accountable for what we have no choice in? God does certainly hold us accountable for our behavior and our words, etc. But God doesn't hold me accountable for what you do. And He holds you accountable for what you do, not for what I do. Perhaps you mean that we reap the consequences of the sins of others, but that is different from being held accountable for their sins. We're not condemned or punished for what other people do, but only for our own choices. As it says repeatedly in Ezekiel, "The soul who sins shall die."

[miz3]

Sky,

I agree that God wants to make our will perfect so that we will produce the kind of fruit He wants from us. It is God and God alone who makes the human perfect. That is He changes us from being slaves to the sinful nature to being slaves of the Holy Spirit.

Carlstadt is correct! Thank you for pointing this out.

A thankful, miz3.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

Read what I just wrote to Gerry. Also read his last question just before that.

Yes, I just saw that.Thanks. How bout trying your best not to denegrate the Bible knowledge of everyone that disagrees with your take on this issue. After reading your understanding of Rom.9 I have to conclude that you hold very tightly to Reform theology.This is the exact argument that is used to establish God's "sovereignty". I have to take my grandson and his friend to a pancake breakfast right now but I'll try and get back to you later on Rom. 9. Suffice to say that I find the Calvinist use of this to be shallow and in violation of the revealed mind of God throughout the rest of Scripture.If actions speak louder than words than God's actions should speak even louder. I'll address Rom.9 when I get back.

[miz3]

John 317,

You missed it. Read Romans chapter 5 where Paul states that because of Adam's sin we are all made sinners and because of Adam's sin we are being held over for death. Paul states we are all slated to die because of Adam's sin, not our sin!!!!!! In like manner we are all slated to live and be Justified because of what Christ did!!!!!! Nothing about about what you or I do!

Romans 9:14 asks the question is God unfair because he makes us humans accountable for what Adam did? Then beginning with verse 19 Paul brings up what humans will ask. Read further to get Paul's immediate answer.

It is there in black and white. It is not a difficult passage. Paul is quite clear.

Thus, we are indeed accountable for what we had no part in. We had no part in Adam's sin yet God is still holding us accountable for that very sin. We had no part in the Cross of Jesus Christ but God is crediting our account for Jesus perfect life and His sacrifice.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry,

You obviously have not read Romans chapter ...

Obviously? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ through no action or choice on our part. Let me ask you then - are ALL saved?

[miz3]

Gerry,

Of course not. Follow what I have written. I covered this question sometime ago.

Read Hebrews chapter 2.

" 1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Romans 2:1-4.

Verse three states that many "ignore" God's great Salvation. In some versions it uses the word, "reject". Thus, even though God made provision for all to be saved and as Romans chapter five states explicitly that "all have been Justified" (saved) not all will be saved.

If this is not enough,

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19.

Humans reject the Light because they love darkness. The Light is the Light that lights every human (see John chapter 1).

The bottom line is there is no justification or reason for sin. No amount reason or excuse can be given. Sin is irrational! No one if they were indeed rational "free moral agents" would ever choose sin to God's gift. It is precisely because we are irrational that we REJECT God's grace given to us by God's fiat.