Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[Dr. Rich]

Good question Kevin. When Jesus was here there was no such thing as a 'bible'. What was called "Scripture" was only the Law and the Prophets.

It is important that everyone do their own study on how, why and who and when and what happened to make the New Testiment. You will find as I did to my surprise, that God was NOT involved and it was for political reasons, not for spiritual reasons. It was an attempt to attract pagens, christians and the jews.

When Jesus said that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was a sin that could not be forgiven, then this is serious business and should not be taken lightly. Calling the whole bible the inspired word of God when any part of it isn't, is the same thing as calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

The same goes for Muhammod, Nostradamas and other so called modern day prophets such as Joseph Smith and EGW.

Since every judgment by God involves an investigation, why would someone call it an 'investigative judgment'?

[Dr. Rich]

What you wrote about is going to happen when Jesus comes does not sound like anyone can change their belief and become saved, John. Is that what you wrote and believe? If so, then the event described in Matthew 25:1-13 would be a joke.

[John317]

You're confused about how and why the Bible as we have it was formed. The books in the New Testament were viewed by the first century congregations as Scripture. These books were distributed all over the known world wherever Christians worshipped together. There was never a time when any single person or power had an opportunity to change all of them. That's how God protected them, Any changes made in them are fairly easy to identify because an alteration will only occur in a limited number of manuscripts.

It is true that some books weren't recognized by the churches in both the West and the East until several centuries after Christ, but that is to be expected. It's to be expected because a large community of people never move quickly. It takes time for people to learn, understand and accept new truths. Similarly many doctrines of the church weren't thought out and understood until many centuries after Christ. God does not lead the church in one giant leap all in a single day. But God was leading out a church, not one or two individuals here and there. And that is still the way God works.

But the point is that the councils didn't force books on the people of the church. All the councils did was accept the books that the various congregations throughout the world already considered sacred. There were various lists of the books of Paul made by the end of the first century, and these are in the letters of Clement of Rome, and also known to Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna in the early second century.

By the end of the second century, a "core" collection of NT books-- 21 of the 27-- was generally recognized: four gospels, Acts, 13 epistles of Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, and Revelation. By the third century, codices containing all seven of the general epistles were being produced. By 240 AD, Origen acknowledged all 27 of the NT books. All this was long before the three African synods-- which took place in 393, 397, and 419 AD--- affirmed the 27-book Canon.

[miz3]

God with His awesome power could so control Gabriel that Gabriel would think he is spouting his own view but it is really God putting words and thoughts in his mind and mouth.

As I said there is no way to be absolutely sure that God is not cooking anything. He is God we take His Word that He is what says He is. Remember Isaiah 55 where God tells us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts even as high as the heavens to the earth. Someone that powerful and pervasive could control everything and make us think that we are doing it ourselves when all the time it is Him manipulating everything. There is no counter weight to God. We have to take everything by Faith. Either we Trust Him or we don't. God can manipulate and cook heavenly technology. After all he made it. How do you know for sure that when He made the heavenly record books that he did not build something into it that we do not know about that would alter the Truth. How do we know that when presenting the facts that God is not manipulating every created entity to see it as He wants it to be. We can never be sure if God is really Just and Righteous. As I stated above there is no counter weight to God that assures us that everything is indeed on the up and up. Also free and open societies never do their legal business in this manner where the one on trial is also the Judge in the case.

We never prove one way or the other whether God is on the up and up or not. And we never will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In this light how then should we view the Judgment and what is the purpose of the Investigative or pre-Advent Judgment?

[John317]

God with His awesome power could so control Gabriel that Gabriel would think he is spouting his own view but it is really God putting words and thoughts in his mind and mouth.

As I said there is no way to be absolutely sure that God is not cooking anything. He is God we take His Word that He is what says He is.

Do you believe the Bible? The Bible says God cannot lie. Yet you are seemingly proposing that the whole universe might better consider the possibility that God is a liar and a manipulator. Such thoughts and suggestions come from one source.

I can see why you have a problem with people being free moral agents.

God has never given you or anyone else a reason for believing what you said. That is exactly how the lies began in heaven. Satan would merely make suggestions and then claim that he was really in support of Christ.

[John317]

We never prove one way or the other whether God is on the up and up or not. And we never will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In this light how then should we view the Judgment and what is the purpose of the Investigative or pre-Advent Judgment?

This is a lie, based on your obsession that people are not free but are being controlled.

Your wild imagination has no affect at all on the significance and purpose of the Investigative Judgment. You talk foolishness. Rememeber that God the Father is exactly like Jesus Christ. Do you see Jesus Christ as someone who would do what you re suggesting? If not, then you have no reason to say it about our gracious heavenly Father.

[miz3]

My point precisely is that when the Bible says that God cannot lie we don't know for absolute sure that such is true. It cannot be proven one way or the other.

Does that mean we should not believe in God just because we cannot prove it one way or the other? This where Faith, Trust, and Belief come in. We cannot prove it but we Believe it! We Trust it! We have Faith in it!

I am not sure whether the Bible supports a pre-Advent Judgment or not. I am cannot prove whether God is on trial or not. Regardless of which side you come down on all must be taken on Faith, Trust and Belief. Do I have a view on these things? Yes! I have lots of views. Sometimes I play "devil's advocate" and sometimes I test my views to learn more about God and how His Kingdom of Righteousness works. Sometimes I have had to change my views in because the Holy Spirit lead me that way and other times the exercise confirmed by Holy Spirit that I should not change. We are all growing and we rarely if ever are in the same place as others on the learning curve with God. Everything is infinite (what else could it be because it is about God) and we can NEVER know it all. Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are dependent on God for everything because we can never be sure of anything in the sense of objective proof. Notice I said objective proof. We may feel that in our experience we have achieved "subjective proof" but we can never attain to "objective proof". Regardless of the terms God has made everything to hinge on Faith, Trust and Belief in Him alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Such is the beauty and joy of the Christian Experience!!!!!!!!!!

One thing I do know if we ever think we know it all and need to never learn anything more about God and His Kingdom we are lost. I mean we are really lost!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gerr]

Good question Kevin. When Jesus was here there was no such thing as a 'bible'. What was called "Scripture" was only the Law and the Prophets.

Don't forget the "Writings". Their "Bible" was "the law, the writings, and the Prophets", and some would add the Psalms.

[Gail]

Well, if we cannot take God at His word (and the Bible says that God CANNOT lie- Titus 1:2), then we are left without an anchor. You may as well believe everything or nothing.

It is because of His honesty that I come to Him in the first place. Jesus said that the truth will make you free. He is the Way the Truth and the Life. It is because of truth that justice is even possible, don't you think?

[teresaq]

God with His awesome power could so control Gabriel that Gabriel would think he is spouting his own view but it is really God putting words and thoughts in his mind and mouth.

As I said there is no way to be absolutely sure that God is not cooking anything. He is God we take His Word that He is what says He is. Remember Isaiah 55 where God tells us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts even as high as the heavens to the earth. Someone that powerful and pervasive could control everything and make us think that we are doing it ourselves when all the time it is Him manipulating everything. There is no counter weight to God. We have to take everything by Faith. Either we Trust Him or we don't. God can manipulate and cook heavenly technology. After all he made it. How do you know for sure that when He made the heavenly record books that he did not build something into it that we do not know about that would alter the Truth. How do we know that when presenting the facts that God is not manipulating every created entity to see it as He wants it to be. We can never be sure if God is really Just and Righteous. As I stated above there is no counter weight to God that assures us that everything is indeed on the up and up. Also free and open societies never do their legal business in this manner where the one on trial is also the Judge in the case.

We never prove one way or the other whether God is on the up and up or not. And we never will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teresaq]

By the way, you have amazing patience! Either you have been learning at the foot of the cross--or you have some agenda going. I don't have enough infor to decide yet. :)

[John317]

I read through this thread and I don't believe your points are being perceived. It looks like we started getting a bit defensive about one of our beliefs.

Having said that, I'm not real sure what your intent is, but yes indeed!! Pretty much we cannot prove, but only believe. "taste and see that He is good". It is only a subjective proving that we do.

The entire Bible-- and the story of Christ's life and death-- is a demonstration of the truth and reliability of God. If all that is is just subjective and none of it really proves who God is and what He is like, He might as well have stayed in heaven and simply made declarations. For Christians to say that we can't know anything for sure about God's trustworthiness and that maybe God is tricking us, is no great sign of true faith. It is just the opposite. What Miz3 said here is in keeping with Miz3's other posts in which it is claimed that humans are not free moral agents. These kinds of statements reflect badly upon God.

[John317]

---or you have some agenda going. I don't have enough infor to decide yet.

Then maybe you need to go read some more and get more info before you write your last couple of posts.

Would you like it for me to say that God is perhaps really tricking us and manipulating us into doing His will? That God is making us feel that He is loving and merciful when He isn't? How do we know He is not really the Devil? We can only trust, right? We have no proof of anything, after all. All we have is God's word, and it could be a lie. So we have to have great faith in God-- who, of course, could be lying.

Maybe Jesus is actually a flaming homosexual and He just pretends to be a good guy when He is really the Devil, whereas the Devil is actually the good guy. We can never be sure. It takes "faith" to believe Him because it's impossible to prove anything. It's likely that even the Investigatiive Judgement won't really prove anything because the whole thing could be a trick by God into making us think something that's not true.

What do you think? Some people evidently like such trash-talk, mistaking it for faith and learning at the feet of Jesus.

[miz3]

If we could prove everything by uncontroverted objective evidence that left no doubt in everyone's mind then their would be no need for "Faith"!!!!!!!!

"Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29.

As Paul writes throughout his Epistles "Faith" is the key.

Thank you Teresa for your kind and perceptive comments. John317 sees everything as an attack upon his orthodoxy and rushes to defend it without listening and trying to perceive what is being said. He believes that he and SDA church have already figured everything out and there is no need to seek further understanding. He accepts the historical pronouncements by our pioneers as if God had given them all the Truth and there is no longer any need to check to see if what they pronounced is indeed true! John317 is very paranoid if someone makes a statement that he views as a threat to this orthodoxy!

Having said that about John317 I do believe that he wants desperately to belong to Jesus Christ and is honestly willing to stand up for Him!!!!!!! Let us be patient with each other for indeed we all love God and Jesus Christ whom God sent. I hope we all want to know the Truth and are also willing to vociferously defend the Truth if need be. John317 thinks he does know me and from what little he has seen he has leaped to some giant and wrong conclusions again because of his orthodoxy and his belief that all has been settled. Since it has been settled in his mind there is then no need to explore anything else or to question because what he believes has already been settled Doctrine.

Thus, John sees me as a giant and decided threat to his world and to the truth as he believes it. He then wishes to warn you about me. Teresa you are free to study anything I said on this website. I have nothing to be ashamed of. You are free to agree or disagree with what I have written.

I myself do not believe that God is playing a giant con game with us. I believe God when He says He loves me and He will never lie to me. Can I prove this? Of course not!!!!!!!!!! It is by "Faith" that I believe God and His Word!!!!!!!!!!!! I "Trust" Him!!!!!!!!!! Can I prove that my Trust well placed? No!!!!!!! Subjectively in my own mind and experience I have all the proof I need to Trust in God completely. However, I cannot prove that what I know and experience is absolute Truth to you, Teresa, or to John317, or to anyone else. It is all based on what we "Believe" (as the text above states), our Faith, and our Trust!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since the "Investigative Judgment" is a term that is not in the Bible, nor is the term "pre-Advent Judgment in the Bible because these terms came about after the Bible was written. My question then is, is the concept of such a judgment in the Bible. What is this judgment's purpose? Given the purpose stated by SDA orthodoxy and John317 orthodoxy how can be sure that God is not putting on a giant hoax or cooking the books to go His way? We can't be sure can we. We can only go by experience with God and trust that He is indeed what He claims to be.

Whether is some form of pre-Advent judgment or not we still have to Trust God!!!!!!!!! even though we can prove He is ligit!!!!!!!!!!

I personally don't see a pre-Advent judgment in the Bible. I see a Judgment but not a pre-Advent judgment. However, Ellen White is crystal clear that their is a pre-Advent judgment. Is our Church Doctrine based on the Bible and the Bible only or is it based on the Bible and on the Writings of Ellen G. White both together. SDA needs to open and honest about the basis on which they hold their Doctrines.

Regardless of the basis on which Doctrine is held it requires "Faith" to build on them no ifs, ands, or buts about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teresaq]

I don't understand the "IJ" or "pre-advent judgment" to be an "Ellen White thing" but an understanding come to by our pioneers as they continued to pray and study concerning what was to happen at the end of the 2300 days.

The more I peruse their understanding the more it seems the IJ involved more than just "investigating" our characters. Much has been lost through time and "apologetics", I believe. I say this tentatively because I need to read more of their writings with prayer, but it seems to have to do with wrapping this "experiment in sin" up, also.

Jesus is carrying our sin, our griefs and sorrows, He suffers with us, and He'd kinda like for that all to end now that it has been in the area of 7 thousand years or so of suffering.

After the Day of Atonement, confessing our sins-as sins-came the Feast of Tabernacles-heaven. No more suffering and sorrows...It does appear to be much deeper than we go in our understanding.

[John317]

I don't understand the "IJ" or "pre-advent judgment" to be an "Ellen White thing" but an understanding come to by our pioneers as they continued to pray and study concerning what was to happen at the end of the 2300 days.

That's right. All Ellen White did intially was to say that the Day-Star Extra was correct. So she simply verified that God had shown her in vision that it had the truth about the heavenly sanctuary. All of it came right out of the Bible.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

The more I peruse their understanding the more it seems the IJ involved more than just "investigating" our characters.

Yes, there is much more involved than an investigation of people's characters. The sins of God's people are blotted out, which is what is called "the cleansing of the sanctuary." It also clears God's reputation from the defilement of the little-horn power and also from the sins of God's people, who have sometimes acted like the little-horn.

[Gail]

I personally don't see a pre-Advent judgment in the Bible. I see a Judgment but not a pre-Advent judgment. However, Ellen White is crystal clear that their is a pre-Advent judgment. Is our Church Doctrine based on the Bible and the Bible only or is it based on the Bible and on the Writings of Ellen G. White both together. SDA needs to open and honest about the basis on which they hold their Doctrines.

I often come across the concept of "trying" or "trials" as I read the Bible, such as "When he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job something). Once you tweak into it you start to recognize it all through Scripture. Try a topical study on it and see what you find!

[onlyhumanme]

I dont see an investigative judgement as do some sda videos that promote the idea that you will be standing around looking and judgeing all the evil your past friends have done,judge not for what measure you use you actually use on god.

If there are people wanting to enquire of the dead the judgement is focused around god not the person.just like in sodom the enquirer judged god on His righteousnes he did not tell god to judge the people rather he asked in what fairness in choice must you withdraw your protection 'i say to you if there was anyone in that town i would be able', it is He who is on trail not man, man has the opportunity- god is the changeless one.If eden is the example as given can a man really hid behind a tree from god?? and He really need to enquire on mans actions or does god call

and call at what ever level he is able, it is the Man the left God not the other way around,...righteous and true are you oh lord.

anyhow just my basic thoughts.

[John317]

I dont see an investigative judgement as do some sda videos that promote the idea that you will be standing around looking and judgeing all the evil your past friends have done,judge not for what measure you use you actually use on god.

You might be thinking of the judgment during the one thousand years. The Investigative Judgment is taking place now, while almost all humans are on the earth.

The wicked are all judged during the one thousand years. The righteous, together with Jesus, will do the judging.

[Gerr]

... it is He who is on trail not man, man has the opportunity- god is the changeless one.

And just where does the Bible say that God is on trial?

[Paula]

Having grown up an SDA, there were many times when I heard sermons where the pastor would say that the IJ started at the end of the 2300 days (1844), and that we, the living, were now being judged and that if, on the day of our judgment, we were sinning, we would be found guilty, and thus sealed and lost forever... and honestly, I have a VERY hard time believing that this is a Biblical doctrine.

Is the Judgment Biblical? Yes. Is the judgment of the living PRIOR to the close of probation Biblical? Absolutely not, in my opinion. Based on the IJ doctrine, if God is now judging the living, and on the moment he comes to my name I commit a sin, and don't immediately repent of it, I am sealed as a sinner and thus lost. Really? What if I continue to read my Bible, pray, and do my part to continue walking with God? Or what about the opposite? If at the time my name comes up, I am doing everything right? I am loving the Lord, I am praising His name, I am SAVED! Then I am sealed as saved. But then, a month later I decide to become an Atheist? According to the IJ doctrine, I am "once saved always saved" cause my name has already come up for examination. Wohoo!!!! Boy did I get lucky!!!

Obviously this doctrine does not hold water. Now, if God really does need time to judge the living, (cause I am sure God can judge ALL the living on earth in the time it takes Him to blink), then I think the only time period where that makes sense would be after the close of probation. When God says, "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy." Rev. 22:11 It seems to me that THAT is the moment when the living are judged. And not a moment sooner.

Anyways, there are a few things in regards to the IJ that I have a hard time with. But my points above are probably the ones I find most grievous.

[John317]

Having grown up an SDA, there were many times when I heard sermons where the pastor would say that the IJ started at the end of the 2300 days (1844), and that we, the living, were now being judged and that if, on the day of our judgment, we were sinning, we would be found guilty, and thus sealed and lost forever... and honestly, I have a VERY hard time believing that this is a Biblical doctrine.

You're right-- it isn't biblical. You won't find such an explanation in either the writings of Ellen White or in offical explanations of the doctrine in SDA publications. WE have no idea when the judgment of the living will take place, except that we know when it ends, Jesus will come. Whoever explained it that way didn't tell the truth about the Investigative Judgment. That's the kind of explanation that gives the IJ a bad reputation and causes people not to believe in it. He was probably doing the best he knew how, but he was wrong.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: onlyhumanme

... it is He who is on trail not man, man has the opportunity- god is the changeless one.

And just where does the Bible say that God is on trial?

There's a sense in which God is on trial, but in the Investigative Judgment and in the judgment that takes place during the one thousand years, the characters and actions and words of people are being judged.

God is being "tried" or judged in the sense that peofple are making up their minds whether God is worthy of their trust and their love and worship.

It comes out in a few Bible verses:

Romans 3:4

By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,

and prevail when you [God] are judged."

Rev. 14:7

And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."

The verdict is reflectd in the book of Revelation:

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

And again in Phil 2: 9-11--

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, [10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

NOTE: The entire universe, including the wicked, will confess that Jesus is Lord and that God's ways are just.

[ClubV12]

Miz3 says,

"Is our Church Doctrine based on the Bible and the Bible only or is it based on the Bible and on the Writings of Ellen G. White both together."

I don't know what the official politiclly correct answer is, but I do this:

NOBODY can understand the last day events from the bible alone, which is WHY God put in place messengers for these last days.

William Miller didn't understand it. Many different men across the planet came to the same conclusion Miller did, that the 2300 year prophecy ended in 1843 or 1844 (insert the lost year understanding to arrive at 1844). But NOBODY knew what it meant. The very FIRST person to get a glimpse of it was Hiram Edson, through a VISION, not through a detailed searching of scripture. The second person, a few months later, was Ellen White.

Once the prophecy was made to be understood THEN you could make a case for it from the bible, suddenly it started to make sense, as seen through a glass darkly as it were. In time, more understanding was given to mankind through the Lords mouth piece, EGW.

Personally, I feel you cannot build the foundation of the SDA church if you exclude the counsels of Ellen White because you would never have understood the significance of last day events in the first place! That lesser light leading to a greater light, the bible. With it, THEN you can understand it from the bible alone, not before.

[Gerr]

Quote:

NOTE: The entire universe, including the wicked, will confess that Jesus is Lord and that God's ways are just.

And how is their verdict of God's justice arrived at?

In the Judgment, it is MAN that is on trial. He is THE one that has/had committed a crime - the crime of rebellion. God being on trial is only in a "sense" as you say, in the same sense that Judge Ito was on trial in the arena of public opinion during the OJ proceedings, i.e. how he conducted himself. In the case of God, how He deals/dealt with His creatures.

I totally reject the notion that God is on trial in Rev 14:7. If God is the one on trial here, why then are we to fear Him? the one on trial? That doesn't make sense. In Rom 3:4, who judges God? Is there a formal trial? No. It takes place in the arena of cosmic opinion, as they look at how He handles/handled Himself in dealing with sin/sinners.