Where in the Bible is the term "Investigative Judgment"?

[Gerr]

Personally, I feel you cannot build the foundation of the SDA church if you exclude the counsels of Ellen White because you would never have understood the significance of last day events in the first place! That lesser light leading to a greater light, the bible. With it, THEN you can understand it from the bible alone, not before.

And just which of the 28 fundamentals could not be established by the Bible alone?

[ClubV12]

For the chosen people, Gods special church for this time, called to deliver the 3rd angels message, there is far more that applies to an individual than the fundamental beliefs. Thats a STARTING point, the foundation.

The investigative judgement is not part of that basic foundation, and yet, it is something we need to understand in light of the 3rd angels message.

Paul dealt with similiar problems of basic beliefs in his time. Laying out the fundamentals for new believers. He recognized the delicate balance of having basic beliefs while not building a wall against new believers. That balance between "legalistic" beliefs and fundamental standards.

[miz3]

To ClubV12 and others,

Good question Gerry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to see that list myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miz3]

To all,

Could one of those items on such a list that Gerry brought up be the current topic.

Where in the Bible is the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment?

No fair using Ellen White or any other outside sources.

The Bible and the Bible only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Personally, I feel you cannot build the foundation of the SDA church if you exclude the counsels of Ellen White because you would never have understood the significance of last day events in the first place! That lesser light leading to a greater light, the bible. With it, THEN you can understand it from the bible alone, not before.

And just which of the 28 fundamentals could not be established by the Bible alone?

Good question, Gerry. Our church's FB don't rely on Ellen White's writings. Many details in her writings are not found in the Bible, however, but that does not include the Foundational pillars of our faith or the 28 FB.

And yes, the Investigative Judgment can be supported strictly by the Bible.

For those who want to see it done, and done well, see Bradley Williams' The Silencing of Satan the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, and The Case For the Investigative Judgment by Marvin Moore. There are many others that do a fine job of showing the Bible evidence, but those two are among the very best, and they are fairly recent publications. The above books are based only on the evidence of the Bible.

How many books people have read on the topic will often indicate how serious a person is in studying it.

[miz3]

John317,

Obviously I do not agree with your assessment that the Fundamental Beliefs can ALL be supported by the Bible and Bible only!

I believe some can supported from the Bible and the Bible only but there are some that cannot. The main source for some of these beliefs have been the Founding mothers and fathers of the SDA Church. Ellen White was either a first cause of such beliefs or supported beliefs started by others.

Do the authors, you are suggesting John317, use the Bible and the Bible only. Do those authors use any quotes from Ellen White anywhere in their books?

[John317]

The investigative judgement is not part of that basic foundation, and yet, it is something we need to understand in light of the 3rd angels message.

Actually the Investigative Judgment and the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ officates as our great High Priest, is one of the most foundational doctrines of the SDA Church. Truth to say, without it, we might as well not exist as a distinct church. The Sanctuary is like the hub of the wheel, and all of our other doctrines may be seen as the spokes connecting the wheel to the hub.

[John317]

Do the authors, you are suggesting John317, use the Bible and the Bible only. Do those authors use any quotes from Ellen White anywhere in their books?

I don't believe Williams' book even mentions Ellen White.

The Moore book does quote from Mrs. White a few times but not in any way that attempts to use her writings as authority for the doctrine. All the evidence for its support comes directly and strictly out of the Scriptures.

[miz3]

John317,

Thank you!

[John317]

If you wanted to, I think you could order the Williams ' book online. At least you used to be able to. It can also be ordered or bought at the Adventist Book Center. It is only about 100 pages but is well worth reading.

He's coming out with another book that will be even better in about a year. He also travels to churches and gives seminars. He pastors the church in Chula Vista.

[miz3]

John317,

I might be able to get it from the University Library.

On Spiritual and/or Religious issues I have pretty much stopped reading what others say about the Bible in book/article form. I reason it this way: Why should get someone else's opinion when I am perfectly capable of reading the Bible myself (provided that God and the Holy Spirit are my teachers)?

Having said that it does not mean that others may have learned some things from God also and I could benefit from what God has taught them. Unfortunately I found most books from the ABC to be very thin on the Bible and what it says so I don't waste my money on them anymore. I do my own research under my Teachers from Heaven and so far God has not disappointed me.

I do believe an exception might be made for the Williams book.

I do care about others opinions which is why I decided to join this website!!!! I have just begun to learn and this website I think could be part of my education.

I will never come to the point when I cannot learn about God and His Kingdom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I find that fascinating and good because the more I learn about God the better my life seems to be. I have been amazed at how God is soooooo powerful that He made the giants (or Goliaths) in my life flee from me and I feel that I get freer everyday because of Him and Him alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin H]

Miz3; There is a difference between reading books that are people's opinion of the scriptures and learning about the history and culture and geography and linguistic contexts.

We need to be careful both with men's opinions, but also reading the Bible with our imagination.

As you borrow books may I recommend the book "Sanctuary and the Atonment" by the Biblical Research Committee, the creamish/yellowish original copy (not the blue copy) and look through it. Especially read "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White"

[John317]

I reason it this way: Why should get someone else's opinion when I am perfectly capable of reading the Bible myself (provided that God and the Holy Spirit are my teachers)?

Having said that it does not mean that others may have learned some things from God also and I could benefit from what God has taught them. ....I do care about others opinions which is why I decided to join this website!!!! I have just begun to learn and this website I think could be part of my education.

I agree with you. If we stop reading what others say, it seems to me that it is the same as saying we don't care what other Christians are thinking. And it seems obvious to me that God uses other Christians to help us learn. Two or three or even twenty minds are usually better than one. That is one reason I like to come to Forums like this one: it's good to test our beliefs by the questions and views of other people. We may have a thought or a question about something that other people have been thinking about for a long time. Why not take advantage of this?

AS to the Williams' book, I can guarantee you that even though you may not be convinced that he is right in all his conclusions, it will give you a lot to think about and you will be glad you read it. Like I say, it's only about 100 pages long, but full of a lot of interesting information from the Bible about the Judgment.

Check out these quotes that I just came across. I think they are good advice for all of us:

Quote:

Do not spend time in controversy with those who bring up objections, for the enemy will suggest to other minds enough to occupy your time in combating them. Your strength is to keep to the affirmative. When the devil met Christ in the wilderness, Christ did not enter into controversy with him. Satan tempted Him to perform a miracle to create bread. Had Christ done this, He would have given the enemy a decided advantage, for Satan might have given a similar evidence of his own power. . . . {CTr 214.4}

So today, if people bring to you objections to the truth, and try to stir you up, do not become excited. Keep on the track of the affirmative. Affirm the truth, “Thus saith the Lord,” and let me tell you, the enemy will soon desire to get out of your presence. . . . {CTr 214.5}

[John317]

As you borrow books may I recommend the book "Sanctuary and the Atonment" by the Biblical Research Committee, the creamish/yellowish original copy (not the blue copy) and look through it. Especially read "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White"

This book is not easy to find any more, but I did find a copy a few years ago in a second hand book store. It's a great one. There aren't too many better books, if any, on the subject.

[ClubV12]

"Bradley Williams' The Silencing of Satan the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, and The Case For the Investigative Judgment by Marvin Moore."

NEITHER author could have reached these conclusions using the bible alone, period, impossible, can't be done, hasn't been done!!

Why?

Because the Investigative Judgement was revealed to man by DIRECT intervention of God through vision's and a prophet FOLLOWING 1844. Before that date, and without the visions, this fundamental belief would not have been revealed in our time.

Remove EGW, her history, any knowledge that may have been acquired through reading her writings and the "hub" of SDA beliefs disappears.

Miz3, can't be done, unless you plan on getting a vision, "inspiration" alone will not be enough, without PRIOR knowledge of specific facts.

[Gerr]

Remove EGW, her history, any knowledge that may have been acquired through reading her writings and the "hub" of SDA beliefs disappears.

Miz3, can't be done, unless you plan on getting a vision, "inspiration" alone will not be enough, without PRIOR knowledge of specific facts.

What kind evidence are you looking for? The phrase "Investigative Judgment" in Scripture as miz3 is looking for?

Plenty of evidence if you are willing to see.

Fact #1. ESV | Ps 9:7 But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice, 8 and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness.

ESV | 1 Pe 4:5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Fact #2. Judgment is according to works.

ESV | Ro 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Fact #3. God does not give a verdict without first checking the evidence.

NASB95 | Dt 13:12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), 14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. crite.If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly- NIV

NASB95 | Dt 19:18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has his brother falsely,

Fact #4. Those judged are judged by what is in the records.

ESV | Da 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

ESV | Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Fact #5. Judgment is necessary to separate the good from the bad, the righteous from the wicked, the sincere from the hypocrite.

ESV | Mt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous

ESV | Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[Gerr]

John317,

Obviously I do not agree with your assessment that the Fundamental Beliefs can ALL be supported by the Bible and Bible only!

So which ones cannot be supported by the Bible alone? Start a new thread on that belief and we will discuss it there - or here.

[ClubV12]

Sure it's easy enough to prove NOW, since it's been REVEALED previously!!

Many things are easily understood once the "key" has been acquired. Who held the key and when was it released to mankind? No "key" until after 1844, period.

William Miller didn't have a clue of what the meaning of 1844 was all about, nor did anyone else. Anyone can do the math and arrive at that date (or 1843), but what does it mean? Well NOW, we can show from the bible, and the bible alone, what it means.

But there is only ONE way to understand WHY Miller and others could not figure it out, through EGW. Without her writings, you got no understanding, you cannot make your case.

It was God Himself that held His hand over the calculations and the meaning of 1844, well, if you believe EGW. The "book was sealed" until it was opened directly by Him. It was His purpose to let people think the 2nd Advent was to occur in 1844. It was "the test" for the people at that time. The inaccurate interpretations had a purpose and served the purpose.

Without a vision, the people would have perished, we would not exist today, the SDA movement could not have happened,,, yet. It had to wait, for the vision.

[Kevin H]

ClubV12: A major flaw in your reasoning is the fact that although you don't find it as developed as in Adventism, you find that other churches have been developing theologie of judgment which sound similar, and that when talking to theologians from other denominations using the phrase "Pre-Advent Judgment" instead of "Investigative Judgment" there is much in common.

Also we keep finding among different groups of scholars: Theologians, Historians, Linguists etc. all the different elements. It is more the inbreeding of small think a like groups that is preventing others from developing the doctrine. It is sort of like "Bicycle's do not exist, they were only created in the mind of this one person and why don't other's have bicycles if they were real?" while livinng in a world that indeed does not have bicycles, however has bicycle frames over here, and those over there having bicycle tires and wheels, and others having handlebars, and others having geers and chains and peddals.

ClubV12 You have the difficult task of expalining why we can find all the elements of the investigative judgment among different groups of scholars and disiplines if they all need Mrs. White to come up with the doctrine.

[ClubV12]

Not that difficult!

It's rather obvious there are many other religions that believe in a judgement. Thats been the case since, well virtually the begining of time!

EGW speaks of human sacrafice in terms of people that had a dim concept of a Messiah dieing for our sins. We find different peoples all over the world with a "story" that relates to a flood. The basics, dim though they maybe, have existed since Adam. So it is with the "judgement", even a possible glimmer of an investigative judgement.

Without God giving direct light, through visions on the subject, there is nothing to separate SDA's from the rest of the "Theologians, Historians, Linguists etc. all the different elements." They see through a glass darkly, they have a dim understanding of the concept, they struggle to figure it out, they haven't quite got it. In 1844, today or in the future. God has a chosen people, just like He had a chosen people in biblical times, the Children of Israel. They were the keepers of the flame of truth. Their mission, like ours, was to reveal that truth to the world. This is fundamentally what set's apart SDA's from all other religious groups. We have a true prophet!

Sounds very egotistical, even narcissistic and there is danger we will see our mission in that light. As did His former people, the Jews. The message is not for "us", it is for the "world", we are but a channel.

[miz3]

To All,

ClubV12 has grasped the vital key to what my original question has been about. I agree with virtually every word he has expressed.

Without Ellen G. White the Doctrine of the Investigative (pre-Advent, or whatever term you want to inject that states some sort of investigation or judgment takes place prior to the Second Coming) Judgment is not possible. As ClubV12 points out if such a Doctrine was in the Bible and the Bible only it would have been seen prior to 1844!!!!!!! However, it took Ellen White and the others because of their experience in 1844 to conceive that such a Doctrine existed. Without the experience of 1844 and the visions of Ellen White the Doctrine is a not possible.

My point is:

1. Why don't SDA admit this and move on.

2. Why do SDA lie by saying all their doctrines are the Bible and the Bible only when in fact our Doctrines are the Bible and Ellen G. White.

3. Why are SDA ashamed of their "prophet" (in quotes because Ellen White never said she was a prophet and she stated that she never would claim to be a prophet).

4. How do we know that our "prophet" is true and that other "prophets" of the time are not true. Such "prophets" as Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith who also claimed to have visions from God. These other prophets also claimed to shed more "light" on what the Bible states. They also claimed that God gave them "NEW" doctrine.

These are just simple fundamental questions that have made SDA uncomfortable for decades. Isn't it time we SDA confront these issues openly and honestly.

[Haldog]

Because they know at some point the SDA church will come to realize that Ellen is a false prophet. Even now many in this church disavow or don't believe many things that she taught. It's just a matter of time.

[ClubV12]

Haldog, that won't happen. There WILL be a "falling away" of those who ultimately reject the truth. For some, the excuse will be non-belief in EGW. There will be various reasons, that won't change or alter the truth no matter how dire the situation looks.

The bible offers specific tests for a prophet, and though EGW did not refer to herself as such, it is abundantly clear that is exactly what she was. The Mormon Smith fails the test as a prophet by any logical reasoning based on the parameters for testing. As do 100's if not 1,000's. There is a difference between a prophet and one who prophecies. We have many examples in the bible of men (maybe women as well?) that prophesied once, perhaps twice, but they were not prophets.

Mr. Harmon received the first vision on the investagative judgement, but he wasn't a prophet. We may see others "prophesieing" in the near future, but they may or may not be prophets. ALL those with a supposed message or vision from God must be tested by the biblical standards, don't be to quick to reject them. TEST them!

I went to a series of Evangelistic meetings (Revelation Seminar thing) and it was "bible based". The logic, reasoning and math were difficult to refute. I'm a engineer, logic, reason and math are everything to me. Had those meetings started out with EGW, they would have lost me early on! Only after some months of study did it occur to me where the SOURCE for this extraordinary knowledge of the bible came from. Ellen White! I was shocked to find that many (if not most) didn't share that view. Indeed there seemed to be questions about her authority! I was, and remain, blown away by this most basic of fundamental Adventist truth. Throw out or reject the prophet, even partially, and you directly start tearing up the very foundation upon which your beliefs are based!

I have my own unique definition of a "prophet", that definition could be argued as to whom it applies. King Saul prophesied, but he wasn't a prophet, for example.

[Haldog]

You asked why the SDA church doesn't just come out and say that the IJ is completely made up by early founders of the church and isn't Bible-based. Sorry you don't like my answer.

[ClubV12]

It is indeed entirely bible based! The only caveat is HOW we arrive at the conclusions.

Basically the same way we arrive at interpretation of the bible. Through revelation by the Holy Spirit to man.

In this case, the Holy Spirit choose a couple of different people in this modern age to enlighten us. Primarily Ellen White.