Coffee is good for U

[Overaged]

Based on all the evidence gathered in this long and interesting thread, though, I think it's incumbent on those promoting complete abstinence from coffee to either:

1. Make a much, much stronger case than we've seen so far for the notion that the harms of moderate use outweigh the benefits or,

2. As John317 has done, state that their position is based on EGW rather than on the scientific evidence available.

Bravus; the way you summed up your thoughts in this post makes sense for the most part.

As far as John 317s idea; it would not be the first time that Ellen White had appeared to be in disagreement with modern science, only to have her points re health/science vindicated later by the same modern science. However; I think it is safe to also say that modern science seems split down the middle on the coffee issue. Some very credible sources would take issue with some equally credible sources promoting coffee as "good for you."

Certainly; I would agree that IF someone is going to drink it, it should be done with restraint/moderation.

By the way some talk; I am left concluding that this has become like when i was a teenager, we used to say: "Oh, hey man. A little bit of this LSD won't hurt. " "Only take one of the Purple Microdots...it will be OK" I can tell you just how OK that was if you like. And many people can tell you just how OK their coffee drinking is. But I am not sure thats the point. I for one have not been talking about "moderation".

To compare coffee with water, in terms of "moderation" is really stretching it.

[Gordon1]

And we have been given light that they know nothing about.

Yes Richard we have a high calling and should be the head, not the tail.

[Overaged]

Quote:

The other thing I've noticed is not one thread defending the use of water, but threads defending coffee, and alcohol. Just curious as to why that is?

I think if you look a bit more closely within those threads that I have *several* times loudly advocated the benefits of fresh air, water, sunlight, sleep, exercise, good food and so on.

Probably no specific threads devoted to it because it's a bit of a 'well, duh?' issue: everyone already agrees, so any discussion is going to have three posts...

Well; not so fast. I have to be very careful in sunlight; and it's hard for me to avoid severe medical issues from same; and there are plenty of people on certain meds who cannot tolerate it well either.

But there is a difference. Coffee/caffeine is a drug, sunlight is not. We all need atleast indirect sunlight. We do not all *need* coffee. Even the Harvard study would confer with that.

[fccool]

Sure, we likewise don't need many things. I think the case and point that was made should be clear. If you abstain from coffee, good for you. I rarely drink it either. I only drink it once in a while when I need to stay awake and work.

There's a time and place for everything, even coffee.

I find it ironic that the statement "To compare coffee with water, in terms of "moderation" is really stretching it." is typed after...

Quote:

By the way some talk; I am left concluding that this has become like when i was a teenager, we used to say: "Oh, hey man. A little bit of this LSD won't hurt. " "Only take one of the Purple Microdots...it will be OK" I can tell you just how OK that was if you like. And many people can tell you just how OK their coffee drinking is. But I am not sure thats the point. I for one have not been talking about "moderation".

Do you think it's fair to compare coffee with LSD?

[Overaged]

yes

[Gordon1]

yes

[Tom Wetmore]

Fair to compare coffee with LSD... Hmmmm... Maybe someone used too much LSD... I'm just saying... jj

Let's try another... Let's compare green tea with marijuana. They are both just dried up leaves.

Extreme hyperbole results in extreme credibility gap.

[Gordon1]

credibility .. church lawyers .. original thought.

[CoAspen]

At least he has credibility!!!

(jus' say'n)

[Bravus]

Hyperbole should be used in moderation.

[fccool]

LOL. How about a thread on excessive remarks on moderation?

[olger]

olger saith: "I offered an "All things in moderation" liberal champion a small glass of polymeric diisocyanate in my shop once. His belief system failed him that day."

Did you have a drink too?

I'm a bit of a teetotaler myself.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I wonder if a starving to death kosher foods conservative champion ...

Jesus Christ was that man. He too was mocked but would not turn stones to bread.

Excellent answer, one that will give poor liberals the fantods.

[Overaged]

At least he has credibility!!!

(jus' say'n)

With coffee swillers

[JawgeFromJawja]

(Multiple quotes here)

I can see the point that fccool is making, but I can only think of 1 case in the last year or so. In my life time I can't think of anymore.

Quote - This comment would not pass the test of science. Who on earth drinks too much water, and ends up in emerg with acute H2O shock trauma?

Why is my point so difficult to grasp? The rarity of the poisoning is irrelevant when considering that it will happen if you drink too much water.

It happens for many reasons. It is not so rare. One 50 year old plus male immediately comes to mind. He had experienced fulminant diarrhea for several days. When the diarrhea improved, but persisted for another week, he began to drink copious quantities of water in the form of apple juice. He ate no solids, and very little other type fluids. Why apple juice is a mystery to me. His serum sodium was 115, a threatening level (shock, heart irregularities, brain dysfunction, other problems). Normal is in the range of 140. Serum is blood without any cells in it. Nowadays, blood laboratory levels are usually determined by the serum concentration.

He survived, after 3 days in the hospital to carefully restore normal blood chemistry.

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

Club you know that ain't gonna happen, because that would've been posted right off. I do agree with fccool up to a certain point. Having never gotten into drinking coffee, only had one gulp and have never understood all the hoopla. Coffee, in my opinion, has no redeeming qualities. I don't see the attraction to drink it. The only reason that I recall working as a medic in the USArmy was to stay awake at night. I myself worked from 3pm to 7 am 5 five nights a week and every other weekend for 9 months or so and never needed a drop of anything to stay awake. The other thing I've noticed is not one thread defending the use of water, but threads defending coffee, and alcohol. Just curious as to why that is?

The point is that condemning the use of a few healthy and refreshing foods or beverages that many enjoy, even many Adventists, and neglecting to consider the potential harm of stuff generally considered healthy is dishonest and sanctimonious.

[Gordon1]

Chemistry 101.

Apple Juice is not H20.

Coffee is not H20.

But you did choose a good photographer.

[ClubV12]

What I've been doing lately to get away from coffee. Limiting myself to one cup for starters. PLUS, I'm using less and less actual coffee in the brew. This mornings cup is a lot like flavored water that is brown.

At the rate I'm going, Pero will soon be a welcome alternative!

[fccool]

Chemistry 101.

Apple Juice is not H20.

Coffee is not H20.

But you did choose a good photographer.

Why latch on to details and ignore the underlying point?

Coffee is dangerous in large amounts and in certain context, while it can be stimulating and beneficial (or in the very least neutral) in small amounts in certain context.

Unless you can present some solid evidence that even small amount of coffee (let's say 1 cup a day) can be detrimental, you really have a very little ground to stand on other than purely religious one.

There are very good reasons that some should abstain from it all-together. Poor health may be one of them. Pregnancy may be another. Some may have amplified effect, so even little amount makes them jittery and sleepless. There may be other reasons.

Yet none of them is a very good reason for people who enjoy this beverage in moderate amounts with beneficial effects.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Chemistry 101.

Apple Juice is not H20.

Coffee is not H20.

But you did choose a good photographer.

Beg to differ. Biochemistry 99. The man was drinking huge amounts of water. Apple juice is probably over 95% water.

Jawge.

[ClubV12]

Is the counsel of the Lord on this issue not plain enough? Is there some question of where the counsel of Sister White stands as it concerns coffee drinking?

It seems pretty clear to me, no one should be drinkng coffee, but perhaps I'm over reacting to the Lords counsel on this matter? Seriously, am I mistaken in some way?

[phkrause]

The point is that condemning the use of a few healthy and refreshing foods or beverages that many enjoy, even many Adventists, and neglecting to consider the potential harm of stuff generally considered healthy is dishonest and sanctimonious.

First I've not condemned anyone for drinking coffee, beer, etc. I've basicily just given my opinion, from 50+ years of observing people that I personally know that drink coffee, which is what I figured was OK to do on this or any other thread. Have not called anyone dishonest for there replys or sanctimonious either. Everything else you mentioned is fine with me, but if you'd like to say that last word in your post to my face than I'd appreciate using that for someone that is. Have never been or never will be plain an simple.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

The point is that condemning the use of a few healthy and refreshing foods or beverages that many enjoy, even many Adventists, and neglecting to consider the potential harm of stuff generally considered healthy is dishonest and sanctimonious.

First I've not condemned anyone for drinking coffee, beer, etc. I've basicily just given my opinion, from 50+ years of observing people that I personally know that drink coffee, which is what I figured was OK to do on this or any other thread. Have not called anyone dishonest for there replys or sanctimonious either. Everything else you mentioned is fine with me, but if you'd like to say that last word in your post to my face than I'd appreciate using that for someone that is. Have never been or never will be plain an simple.

I try to choose words carefully to avoid being offensive. Pkrause, knowing the general tone of your posts, which my wife and I both appreciate and enjoy, I could never think of you as being sanctimonious. Please pardon me if I was insensitive. But note that no one,especially not you, was called sanctimonious. The post said that the [unwarranted behavior of ] condemnation of coffee use is sanctimonious. No one was designated as having a sanctimonious personality.

Annette, the wife of my youth is the Adventist of our marriage. 52 years ago,when we were courting, she would have condemned coffee use. She converted to the use of coffee herself through the influence of those wonderful Roman Catholic Cajuns of Lafayette, Louisiana, where I did my medical residency. As far as alcohol, she is a teetotaler, although not condemning its moderate use by others.

There are both conservative and moderate Adventists in her family. Some of the conservatives condemn her, as well as her coffee drinking and occasional meat eating. Those who condemn her are convinced that she is headed for destruction in the fiery pit.

The issue of condemnation of those who do not practice their laundry list of shalt nots is a painful reality for Annette. If it were not so hurtful to her, I would look on such behavior as human comedy.

JawgeFromJawja

[Overaged]

It happens for many reasons. It is not so rare. One 50 year old plus male immediately comes to mind. He had experienced fulminant diarrhea for several days. When the diarrhea improved, but persisted for another week, he began to drink copious quantities of water in the form of apple juice. He ate no solids, and very little other type fluids. Why apple juice is a mystery to me. His serum sodium was 115, a threatening level (shock, heart irregularities, brain dysfunction, other problems). Normal is in the range of 140. Serum is blood without any cells in it. Nowadays, blood laboratory levels are usually determined by the serum concentration.

He survived, after 3 days in the hospital to carefully restore normal blood chemistry.

JawgeFromJawja

The patient would not have had any problems had that been water; instead of apple juice. Some big differences there.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

It happens for many reasons. It is not so rare. One 50 year old plus male immediately comes to mind. He had experienced fulminant diarrhea for several days. When the diarrhea improved, but persisted for another week, he began to drink copious quantities of water in the form of apple juice. He ate no solids, and very little other type fluids. Why apple juice is a mystery to me. His serum sodium was 115, a threatening level (shock, heart irregularities, brain dysfunction, other problems). Normal is in the range of 140. Serum is blood without any cells in it. Nowadays, blood laboratory levels are usually determined by the serum concentration.

He survived, after 3 days in the hospital to carefully restore normal blood chemistry.

JawgeFromJawja

The patient would not have had any problems had that been water; instead of apple juice. Some big differences there.

Do you have a reason to opine this? Should he have drunk pure water instead of apple juice, he would have worsened more rapidly. Look at the situation: ongoing diarrhea. The body loses electrolytes (ions of sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, others) in vomitus and diarrhea, because passive osmosis along with other mechanisms constantly move those electrolytes from the blood stream into the bowel. Water, unless mineralized, has no electrolytes. Apple juice has some trace of electrolytes, even though precious little.

Vomiting and diarrhea are among the biggest killers in the world, particularly "third world" countries. In industrialized countries, such deaths are uncommon (but not rare) simply because of adequate replacement of both fluids (basically water) and electrolytes. Such treatment does not cure anything, but does allow the body to survive long enough for the body's God given healing mechanisms to heal the disease causing vomiting and diarrhea.

JawgeFromJawja