Coffee is good for U

[Overaged]

I am sure glad that you are not my doctor and that I dont have the trots...

[JawgeFromJawja]

Is the counsel of the Lord on this issue not plain enough? Is there some question of where the counsel of Sister White stands as it concerns coffee drinking?

It seems pretty clear to me, no one should be drinkng coffee, but perhaps I'm over reacting to the Lords counsel on this matter? Seriously, am I mistaken in some way?

Please do not take my comments below the wrong way. I am not an Adventist, obviously. The gentle Adventist wife of my youth coaxed me into the Club Adventist forum hoping that it could help effect further healing in my bitterness about our early mixed marriage experiences. Over the years, I had already had a great deal of healing of that bitterness. One such experience causing that bitterness was my wife's pastor forbidding our marriage in her church, which she dearly desired.

You say it seems pretty clear to you that no one should be drinking coffee. Very well. Your opinion should be respected. But can you accept with love those many born-again Adventists who disagree with you, who do drink coffee? Many of them, yes a significant fraction of Adventists, do question Sister White's counsel on coffee, much of her health advice, and much of her theology. Finally, can you objectively review Mrs. White's life and realize how often she was mistaken in health matters and prophecy? I personally know many Adventists who can.

Respectfully,

George

[Guest]

Keep coming back George...

[Overaged]

Hey George; thanks for sharing that bit about yourself - the personal touch to a post means a lot more than dry bones theology any day. You sound like a very interesting fellow to get to know. Don't let a little bit of spirited debate throw you off-course. Stick to your convictions; even if they are different than our's. God knows better than we do your heart; and we can all trust Him to work in one another, inspite of the differences. "Unity in diversity." It's what i was taught in the Adventist church where I first became a Christian.

[ClubV12]

I was seriously asking if the counsel on coffee IS very clear. I haven't seriously studied it, people have told me about it, it makes sense, I'm comitted to a health reform plan in general. Coffee, meat, I'm working on it. Thank God I never did drink alcohol anyway, so that's easy. Giving up cigars? That was torture...

But the question remains, IS the Spirit of Prophecy clear cut on this coffee issue or not? Something I guess I'll have to research myself. Until this thread, I thought it was a cut and dried issue, it's time for me to have a reason for my faith on it.

As to Ellen White giving her own opinion or being wrong on health care, my opinion is "No", she is not. It is not her "opinion", her counsel is a direct revelation from God to man, like any other prophet that walked the face of the earth. In spite of what some other Adventists say, or not, that fact remains. You don't pick and choose what verses of the bible are inspired or not, or were personal opinion of the author. Ellen White is no different. When she DOES offer her "opinion" on something she makes it clear that is exacly what she is doing, offering her opinion. Paul did the same thing in the bible. He sometimes expressed his personal opinion on a matter (such as marriage) and noted it as such. Where Ellen White appears to disagree with science, you can bet your life she is right and science is wrong. Science disagreed with Noah, but that didn't stop the rain.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Hey George; thanks for sharing that bit about yourself - the personal touch to a post means a lot more than dry bones theology any day. You sound like a very interesting fellow to get to know. Don't let a little bit of spirited debate throw you off-course. Stick to your convictions; even if they are different than our's. God knows better than we do your heart; and we can all trust Him to work in one another, inspite of the differences. "Unity in diversity." It's what i was taught in the Adventist church where I first became a Christian.

Thank you, Overaged. Early on, I decided to share personal stuff when it was relevant to my mission on this forum. My wife was the one who challenged me to enroll.

My mission on this forum? Several fold.

1. Complete healing of the rancor generated within me by the attitudes of some, who were certainly a minority of those Adventists Annette and I encountered when we married. Over the years, there had already been considerable healing. And yes, I do realize that ill-will practically always originates from all those involved in any situation.

2. To use this forum as a mirror to study and challenge myself and my beliefs.

3. To share my beliefs, which are often heretical or heterodox even for other Baptists, with those who have opposing beliefs. For them to thoroughly realize that I consider my beliefs to be as firmly Bible founded as they do theirs, AND for me to realize that they have the same faith in their beliefs.

4. To have fun. Both Annette and I were permanently infected with the joie de vivre of those wonderful Cajuns of Southwest Louisiana during our two year sojourn there.

Funny thing. I told Annette at the beginning that I would probably not last a week on the forum. All of you on the forum have graciously just considered the source, even when the discussions were at times a little too heated.

Best regards to all

JawgeFromJawja

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I like Ellen White. She endorses chocolate. Chocolate is a stimulant. mmmm...

Quote:

And if you ask what you shall drink at your meals, I say, nothing is best; yet cocoa, chocolate, or warm water seasoned, or bread coffee, rice coffee, pea coffee, corn coffee, etc., etc, will be good substitutes, as they do not inflame, and are palatable. {SOAP 257.2}

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Hey George; thanks for sharing that bit about yourself - the personal touch to a post means a lot more than dry bones theology any day. You sound like a very interesting fellow to get to know. Don't let a little bit of spirited debate throw you off-course. Stick to your convictions; even if they are different than our's. God knows better than we do your heart; and we can all trust Him to work in one another, inspite of the differences. "Unity in diversity." It's what i was taught in the Adventist church where I first became a Christian.

Thank you, Overaged. Early on, I decided to share personal stuff when it was relevant to my mission on this forum. My wife was the one who challenged me to enroll.

My mission on this forum? Several fold.

1. Complete healing of the rancor generated within me by the attitudes of some, who were certainly a minority of those Adventists Annette and I encountered when we married. Over the years, there had already been considerable healing. And yes, I do realize that ill-will practically always originates from all those involved in any situation.

2. To use this forum as a mirror to study and challenge myself and my beliefs.

3. To share my beliefs, which are often heretical or heterodox even for other Baptists, with those who have opposing beliefs. For them to thoroughly realize that I consider my beliefs to be as firmly Bible founded as they do theirs, AND for me to realize that they have the same faith in their beliefs.

4. To have fun. Both Annette and I were permanently infected with the joie de vivre of those wonderful Cajuns of Southwest Louisiana during our two year sojourn there.

Funny thing. I told Annette at the beginning that I would probably not last a week on the forum. All of you on the forum have graciously just considered the source, even when the discussions were at times a little too heated.

Best regards to all

JawgeFromJawja

Hey; you've gotta be alright if you know about "joie de vivre!"

I have had more than one teacher in school, and others since then, say that I have that sometimes. (maybe they had their horse-blinkers on) But, it is something I suspect you may also be "infected" with!

Don't worry; if you were my Doctor; I would grumble a bit at you and sometimes grill you intensely, but just look at it this way - you would get paid for it!!

[Overaged]

I like Ellen White. She endorses chocolate. Chocolate is a stimulant. mmmm...

Quote:

And if you ask what you shall drink at your meals, I say, nothing is best; yet cocoa, chocolate, or warm water seasoned, or bread coffee, rice coffee, pea coffee, corn coffee, etc., etc, will be good substitutes, as they do not inflame, and are palatable. {SOAP 257.2}

LOL; guess that means you can buy those chocolate bars called "Coffee Crisp?"

[shelly]

Coffee drinking SDA checking in here. I did my senior research project on caffine and found that the assertions made in the SOP about caffine intake just weren't scientifically true. I think EGW made the statements she made about caffiene using the knowledge she had available to here at her time. Some of her "health messages" just can't be proven and are not supported by the bible. Coffee drinking is one of them. There is no mention from abstaining from caffiene or stimulants in the bible. While she endorses chocolate (which contains caffiene) she rejects coffee. If caffiene is actually the issue, chocolate should also be avoided. This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made.

[Twilight II]

Coffee drinking SDA checking in here. I did my senior research project on caffine and found that the assertions made in the SOP about caffine intake just weren't scientifically true. I think EGW made the statements she made about caffiene using the knowledge she had available to here at her time. Some of her "health messages" just can't be proven and are not supported by the bible. Coffee drinking is one of them. There is no mention from abstaining from caffiene or stimulants in the bible. While she endorses chocolate (which contains caffiene) she rejects coffee. If caffiene is actually the issue, chocolate should also be avoided. This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made.

Chocolate does not have caffeine in it is my understanding.

[skyblue888]

[Bravus]

Quote:

Chocolate does not have caffeine in it is my understanding.

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/factsheets/drugAndAlcohol/caffeine.html

[ClubV12]

"This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made."

Thats Shellys opinion, not Ellen Whites. You have a choice to make in these matters, you can believe the Lords messenger or you can rely on man, the scientists. I'll take inspiration over science any day. This was NOT Ellen Whites opinion, it was divine inspiration.

[Twilight II]

"This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made."

Thats Shellys opinion, not Ellen Whites. You have a choice to make in these matters, you can believe the Lords messenger or you can rely on man, the scientists. I'll take inspiration over science any day. This was NOT Ellen Whites opinion, it was divine inspiration.

Inspiration and science never disagree.

Inspiration and false science will always contend with each other however.

[phkrause]

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/factsheets/drugAndAlcohol/caffeine.html

Excellent website. That alone, if I was inclined to drink coffee, would make me think really hard if that's the path I would want to take.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: shelly

Coffee drinking SDA checking in here. I did my senior research project on caffine and found that the assertions made in the SOP about caffine intake just weren't scientifically true. I think EGW made the statements she made about caffiene using the knowledge she had available to here at her time. Some of her "health messages" just can't be proven and are not supported by the bible. Coffee drinking is one of them. There is no mention from abstaining from caffiene or stimulants in the bible. While she endorses chocolate (which contains caffiene) she rejects coffee. If caffiene is actually the issue, chocolate should also be avoided. This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made.

Chocolate does not have caffeine in it is my understanding.

Chocolate contains the stimulant theobromine, which is a close chemical relative of caffeine. In fact, caffeine is partially converted into theobromine in the liver. As a stimulant, theobromine is not as strong as caffeine for most people. There are uncommon exceptions. Blankety-blank individual differences obtain in all biological parameters. Like caffeine, theobromine can be addicting.

The pharmacology of both theobromine and caffeine are still taught in medical school, usually in the second year.

JawgeFromJawja

[Tom Wetmore]

With a fixed and rigid view of inspiration the only way to resolve an apparent conflict is to determine that the variable is science. So if science conflicts with what is viewed as the product of inspiration the only way to resolve it is to fault science.

(At the risk of touching the third rail of Adventism...)

Perhaps applying the same level of critical analysis to the topic of inspiration might yield a more balanced resolution that would allow for the validity of both EGW's writings and current scientific evidence.

There are far more variables in inspiration than it appears some are assuming. The range of possibilities could be as basic as simply a burden to move in a different direction away from current thinking or practice, like Abraham being inspired to leave his homeland and keep going until God let him know he had arrived where God wanted him to be. Or it could be a verbatim dictation as was given to some prophets of old - a specific instruction to write down and deliver a specific message word for word as it was given to them. And there are many possible variations in between.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I like Ellen White. She endorses chocolate. Chocolate is a stimulant. mmmm...

Quote:

And if you ask what you shall drink at your meals, I say, nothing is best; yet cocoa, chocolate, or warm water seasoned, or bread coffee, rice coffee, pea coffee, corn coffee, etc., etc, will be good substitutes, as they do not inflame, and are palatable. {SOAP 257.2}

____________________

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Now that is an odd statement!!!

In many places she does not recommend

drinking with our meals.

SOAP, what is that?

Rudy, Did u make that statement up? hmmmm hehe

sky

Nope, didn't make it up. I didn't know how to abbreviate, "A Solemn Appeal"...

(I tend towards accuracy and honesty in my posts...some don't like that...)

[ClubV12]

"God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His word,selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The Testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this. Selected Messages, Bk. 1, p. 23"

Of course we hear a LOT about this and that quote of Ellen Whites was "her opinion" or it doesn't apply to our day and other such remarks, like it must be false because science doesn't agree, etc. etc.

From my research I have found only ONE specific reference where Ellen White notes it was her opinion. That is the specifications for the "reform dress", which by and large the people rejected as to confining.

Other than that, I have yet to see anything in the vast writings of Ellen White where she speaks directly to something she has written or said as being her own opinion. Her own WORDS, as was true of all the prophets, Paul used his own words to describe what he was shown. Paul also noted his personal opinion on marriage.

Ellen White received visions, dreams and revelations on health reform, you either believe that or you don't. Trying to "break down" which parts of the health reform message are inspired is like to trying to figure out which parts of the bible are inspired, or not. Paul simply wrote letters to different people and churches. As did Ellen White. So, which parts of Pauls writings should we ignore as "uninspired"?

The question is fundamentally: Is Ellen White a prophet, or not? Was Paul?

[jasd]

I think it enlightening what follows the statement...,

"Sip no more the beverage of China; no more the drinks of java; what shall you drink at your meals? ... I say, nothing is best; yet cocoa, chocolate, or warm water seasoned, or bread coffee, rice coffee . . . will be good substitutes as they do not inflame."

[...]

"Sleeping on feather beds and feather pillows, in close, unventilated rooms is another cause of weakness, and therefore aids in inducing this vile practice of solitary vice." --An Appeal to Mothers:

Aww, gee!—feather pillows?

The same author also wrote the following:

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

Again with the “solitary vices”, eh?

[jasd]

>>...from caffiene or stimulants in the bible.<<

Segueing from this – I am put to mind the fellow (I seem to recall he posted to this forum) who proffered that the drug of choice (especially among the priesthood) in OT literature was

cannabis.

Hoo-ah!—ya thinks?

He made quite an extensive study of it...

[shelly]

"This is what points me to the fact that her views on coffee drinking were opinion and not vision. This gross error would be man made."

Thats Shellys opinion, not Ellen Whites. You have a choice to make in these matters, you can believe the Lords messenger or you can rely on man, the scientists. I'll take inspiration over science any day. This was NOT Ellen Whites opinion, it was divine inspiration.

So we are to believe that inspiration caused her to overlook the caffiene content in chocolate and condem the stimulent in coffee-so long as it supports the idea that she was right. She also took coffee for its "medicianal" qualities while she did not drink it on the regular basis. If it is truly related to spirituality how could one use it for medicine on one hand and be detrimental to us on the other hand. Either consumption is wrong spiritually or not. There is no grey area with right and wrong.

[jasd]

>>...for its "medicianal" qualities<<

...why I store screwtop jug wines - for their necessary qualities,

you know, "Hurt not the oil and the wine."

[ClubV12]

"There is no grey area with right and wrong."

Indeed they ARE a 1,001 gray areas in right and wrong! In many cases what is right or wrong for any given person at any given time is largely determined by the heart, the circumstances, the leading of the Holy Spirit.

As it concerns "how inspiration works", a study in itself, if your looking for doubts about the counsel the Lord has sent His people you will also find a 1,001 hooks on which to hang them.

I don't read Pauls epistles to this or that person or group and see them as applying only to that person or group. We look at the context, the time, the history, the people and compare verse to verse to understand the principles involved in his letters. How those principles apply to us, today. Ellen Whites writings are no different. She says the Testimonies themselves are the key to understanding them. Taking a single quote here and there is no different than taking a single bible verse and building your doctrinal point on that verse alone. If you REALLY want to understand what she has to say on any given subject you must first apply the same principles to the Testimonies you would apply to the Bible. Be open to the Holy Spirit and search diligently to come to a balanced understanding of the concept.