Coffee is good for U

[ClubV12]

"It's called picca and is well documented as a sign of vitamin defficiency. There is no question or scientific ambuguity about this."

PICA, people eating weird things, like dirt, hair, paint chips, etc.

There is MUCH scientific ambuguity as to the cause of this condition. There is MUCH ambuguity as to treatment. Vitamin defficiency is a given when people aren't eating right, so that is ONE aspect of treatment.

Currently it is considered a MENTAL, not a physical condition. One treatment for it is to get the patient to CONTROL HIS APPETITE.

There is no question, no "ambuguity" about what Sister White has said on this subject. She is right on target and was well ahead of her time with a diagnosis. Her counsel remains relevant for this condition today, as RECOGNIZED by science.

[Toni Wood]

ClubV12-Amen and amen again-have not read all these responses, but we can all find excuses for the things that we want to do, regardless good for us or not. You have hit the nail on the head in regards to Sister White. Google, indeed..lol...

[shelly]

Picca is different from the "freaky eater" which has a mental component. Picca is not questioned medically and is clearly linked to vitamin nutrition. Even what a person chooses to eat can be tied directly to what they are deficient in. But if you want to make EGW fit no matter what then that is what you are going to do. When someone begins with the primise that someone is right there is usually nothing you can do to convience them otherwise. There is no mental component to picca rather than mental dependancy. Even that fades once the correct nutreint is intorduced. Once they are treated they no longer want to eat non-food items. That is why they tell expectant mothers to let their doctors know if they are craving dirt or starch-it indicates vitamin deficiancy that could harm the unborn child. And most expectant mothers aren't drinking coffee.

[JawgeFromJawja]

"You will always find what you are looking for at those anti-Adventist web sites.

It's a sad day when we start to really believe that Google knows everything."

Are you informing others about pitfalls of the web? Most members (sadly not all) of this forum are aware of this. There is a lot of valuable stuff on the internet, as well as a lot of junk and even masculine bovine feces. A mind honed for critical thinking can usually discern the difference.

"Please do not respond to this post until you have checked out Ellen Gould White on the internet. Certainly there is a great deal of nonsense and ignorance on the web, but keep in mind that the charges of contradictions are not typically denied, but ineffectively defended."

You haven't had time to do that suggested Google. Or any use other browser. Your prerogative. But you will be a better Christian when you learn critically to look at relevant sources of those who disagree with your positions. In knowing the truth, you cannot really know where you are coming from without knowing where others have been.

[ClubV12]

"Picca is not questioned medically and is clearly linked to vitamin nutrition."

No, it is not clearly linked to any specific disorder. The debate among the medical community continues. It continues on the cause(s) and the treament. Pica IS, by definition and to use a laymans term, a "freaky eater".

"Even what a person chooses to eat can be tied directly to what they are deficient in."

Only in some cases. In those cases had one been following the counsel on diet and foods this would not be an issue to begin with.

"Once they are treated they no longer want to eat non-food items."

In cases of psychological trauma, which is common since the diagnosis continues to be a mental disorder, this is simply not true.

"When someone begins with the primise that someone is right there is usually nothing you can do to convience them otherwise."

Your premise is that the scientific community opinions you support are right, while ignoring the scientific community opinion of those differ with your position.

Pica is a serious disorder, not just some pregnant mother wanting ice cream and pickles. :)

[shelly]

I am in the medical field and know that while pica is not a separate medical diagnossis it is used in conviential mediciane to alert physicians to poor nutrition. If you want to trust EGW over everything else that is fine. I just felt that the conversation needed some facts rather than blind faith. If you are not disturbed that at best she was missing one component of poor nutrition in her "inspired" word that is fine. If you believe that under inspiration she was not told that perhaps poor crops and lack of variety in someone's diet could be at issue and was told to blanketly condem those who had nutritional issues that's fine. If, as you claim, it is more emotional than physical, do you think that she would have been told to tell them use self control rather than being shown ways to help thier emotional issues? Is that the kind of God we serve? To me that sounds like a human being adding their own understanding to something they know little about. However, if you view EGW writings with the same weight as the bible and believe that her words are truth I am done here. I can't follow man-or in this case woman. In the issue of appitite I have to back away from her. She is clearly in error but the church is afraid to admit it because they are afraid that if we question her on one issue we must question her on everything. The silly thing is that if she truly is the prophet we believe she is she will stand up to any questioning. However, we defend her even when it is shown that she is mistaken. Twisting facts to fit her truth doesn't make the grade. This helps to erode her position as teacher. I foresee a time again where their will be a calling for EGW to be less of an influence in the SDA church just like it was when I was growing up.

[shelly]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chewing-ice/AN01278

Pica is associated with iron deficiancy.

[ClubV12]

If you want to trust science over EGW that is fine. I prefer a more balanced approach, considering the counsel of the Lord and how it agrees with science.

Pica being associated with iron deficiency is ONE possible cause, of many. And yet you present it as a given fact, it is not a given at all. It is a THEORY, not proven, not agreed upon by the medical community. On this issue of iron Ellen White is silent, but her counsel supports one medical community theory, to wit:

"Evidence SUGGESTS that there may be several causes of pica. ONE widely held theory points to iron deficiency as a major cause of pica. Several reports have described pica in individuals with documented iron deficiency, although there has been uncertainty as to whether the iron deficiency was a cause of pica or a result of it."

Ellen Whites counsel states the cause is uncontrolled diet. Many medical scientists agree with that. That pica is a result of poor diet, not the cause of a poor diet.

When medical science is unsure, still debating, forming theories, we have a "rock" to help dispel the confusion. The Lords messenger. Her counsel should at the very least be seriously considered.

I do not place "blind faith" in the scientists of this world, as many do.

[CoAspen]

Shelly,

You are familiar with the 'Backfire Effect'? Wehe time have had discussions about it. I think you will find it in play quite a bit of the time. (it's a sneaky thing, when you least expect it)

[ClubV12]

Good point CoAspen, those who have placed their faith entirely in science are unable to come to a balanced view.

Those who trust the word AND science will find there is much that both sources agree on. I'm an engineer, my world was based on math and logic. Now I have a new dimension to add to that, faith. There is harmony in all this, logic, math, science and faith that amazes me!

[JawgeFromJawja]

Shelly,

You are familiar with the 'Backfire Effect'? Wehe time have had discussions about it. I think you will find it in play quite a bit of the time. (it's a sneaky thing, when you least expect it)

Info, please. Muh rusty ole mind cannot provide a clear meaning of "backfire" effect, even with a 200 week depth forum search.

Regards,

Jawge

[ClubV12]

Cliffs Notes version of the "Backfire Effect".

Those who have placed their faith entirely in "what ever" and thus have determined their position on an issue will only "dig in" their heals and become more hardened in that position when faced with evidence that does not support it.

In my opinion, this is a good and bad scenario. One must have "absolutes" in his life as "anchors". There is a God, for instance. Evidence counter to that will only make me "dig in my heels" and become more hardened in my position.

Some consider science the ultimate "anchor", even when science does not agree. They will simply find some study or science that supports their position. This is an unbalanced approach, but never the less, the "Backfire Effect" becomes a serious issue.

The same could be said for those of us who strongly believe in Ellen White. At least in my case, I understand she (like Paul) is not infallible. However, like Paul, the testimony she presents cannot be easily dismissed simply on the basis that "she makes mistakes". For those that do not believe in her at all, you are left with a single unbalanced approach, science and science alone. What to do when the bible disagree's with science? That is a delima.

[shelly]

If you want to trust science over EGW that is fine. I prefer a more balanced approach, considering the counsel of the Lord and how it agrees with science.

Pica being associated with iron deficiency is ONE possible cause, of many. And yet you present it as a given fact, it is not a given at all. It is a THEORY, not proven, not agreed upon by the medical community. On this issue of iron Ellen White is silent, but her counsel supports one medical community theory, to wit:

"Evidence SUGGESTS that there may be several causes of pica. ONE widely held theory points to iron deficiency as a major cause of pica. Several reports have described pica in individuals with documented iron deficiency, although there has been uncertainty as to whether the iron deficiency was a cause of pica or a result of it."

Ellen Whites counsel states the cause is uncontrolled diet. Many medical scientists agree with that. That pica is a result of poor diet, not the cause of a poor diet.

When medical science is unsure, still debating, forming theories, we have a "rock" to help dispel the confusion. The Lords messenger. Her counsel should at the very least be seriously considered.

I do not place "blind faith" in the scientists of this world, as many do.

I don't have blind faith in science. However, I also know that their is no proof-biblical or scientific- that supports EGW views on coffee and tea leading to an uncontrolled diet such as pica. Everything in science is contested. However, a widely held view of poor nutrition carries alot more weight for me than an non-biblical quotes that cannot be substantiated. But like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree-on caffiene and EGW. We are both fully pursuaded in our own minds. There is nothing more to be achieved with this conversation.

[CoAspen]

I will send you directly to the sources..... Backfire

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

If you want to trust science over EGW that is fine. I prefer a more balanced approach, considering the counsel of the Lord and how it agrees with science.

Pica being associated with iron deficiency is ONE possible cause, of many. And yet you present it as a given fact, it is not a given at all. It is a THEORY, not proven, not agreed upon by the medical community. On this issue of iron Ellen White is silent, but her counsel supports one medical community theory, to wit:

"Evidence SUGGESTS that there may be several causes of pica. ONE widely held theory points to iron deficiency as a major cause of pica. Several reports have described pica in individuals with documented iron deficiency, although there has been uncertainty as to whether the iron deficiency was a cause of pica or a result of it."

Ellen Whites counsel states the cause is uncontrolled diet. Many medical scientists agree with that. That pica is a result of poor diet, not the cause of a poor diet.

When medical science is unsure, still debating, forming theories, we have a "rock" to help dispel the confusion. The Lords messenger. Her counsel should at the very least be seriously considered.

I do not place "blind faith" in the scientists of this world, as many do.

I don't have blind faith in science. However, I also know that their is no proof-biblical or scientific- that supports EGW views on coffee and tea leading to an uncontrolled diet such as pica. Everything in science is contested. However, a widely held view of poor nutrition carries alot more weight for me than an non-biblical quotes that cannot be substantiated. But like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree-on caffiene and EGW. We are both fully pursuaded in our own minds. There is nothing more to be achieved with this conversation.

Shelly, do you drink tea or coffee or any form of caffeine?

[JawgeFromJawja]

"The same could be said for those of us who strongly believe in Ellen White. At least in my case, I understand she (like Paul) is not infallible. However, like Paul, the testimony she presents cannot be easily dismissed simply on the basis that "she makes mistakes". For those that do not believe in her at all, you are left with a single unbalanced approach, science and science alone. What to do when the bible disagree's with science? That is a delima."

An amazing statement. You are saying that the only two sources of knowledge of any value are Ellen G White and "science".

When speaking for God, prophets do not make mistakes.

[phkrause]

"The same could be said for those of us who strongly believe in Ellen White. At least in my case, I understand she (like Paul) is not infallible. However, like Paul, the testimony she presents cannot be easily dismissed simply on the basis that "she makes mistakes". For those that do not believe in her at all, you are left with a single unbalanced approach, science and science alone. What to do when the bible disagree's with science? That is a delima."

An amazing statement. You are saying that the only two sources of knowledge of any value are Ellen G White and "science".

When speaking for God, prophets do not make mistakes.

That is an amazing statement, I agree. But I will say to make a statement like that, you have to have a real and living Faith in the Bible. Because as we've seen there are times when science and the Bible look like they disagree. I personally believe that science and the Bible don't disagree and eventually science will prove the Bible correct. If not now than in the world made new when we can talk and ask our Lord and Savior and get all the answers we need. Even though studies have been done that show some good benefits for coffee and even alcohol, common sense shows that both have bad benefits and maybe even more bad than good. For all the good benefits of alcohol we do know that the bad out weights the good. I mean how many alcohol related deaths are there compared to non alcohol accident deaths? I suppose a google search would help, but every night when they talk about yet another death resulting from one or both drivers having killed someone and one or all have been driving and drinking once again. I guess I'm going on a little to much about alcohol, sorry but it also seems to me that many that drink alcohol also drink coffee. Sorry if I'm wrong! But how people do we know that the only reason that they drink coffee is because of the caffeine and not because they drink it because they love the taste?? I know there are those that do so don't get me wrong? I know of only one in my many years of living and that would be my brother. But what's also interesting is when some have some health issues and my brother does, he was told to stop drinking coffee!!! And when women are pregnant are they not asked to stop drinking anything with caffeine??? Do they ever ask anyone to stop drinking water when they have a health issue????? I've personally never heard of one, but than maybe I'm wrong! I just see more people that are addicted to drinking coffee than I do people that really drink it because its such a great beverage.

[JawgeFromJawja]

A word of thanks to those who helped clarify "backfire".

I already knew of the phenomenon then, but not the label for that phenomenon.

Everyone has bias. No exceptions. We are just not comfortable with having our treasured world view attacked, as it were, in any way.

Years ago, one of my office staff asked, "Dr. King, isn't it true that "Science" (voiced with a capital "S")thinks it has all the answers?"

People in general have wacko ideas about "science". No valid area of science claims to have ANY answers. That's not the point. Of course, there are observed facts, but no rock solid answers about anything beyond objective data that no one in his right mind can deny. The work of science is to classify objective data, and to form workable, and hopefully economically and culturally useful opinions about that data. A tentative opinion is called an "hypothesis". A generally accepted opinion is called a "theory". An all but rock solid opinion is styled a "law". However, none of those three levels of confidence in opinions means absolute security for the idea. Not even "a law". The "law" of gravity can be circumvented several ways. Caveat - don't jump off any buildings yet. Ya gotta have some kinda flying apparatus.

Robert Heinlein, my favorite childhood science fiction writer wrote

"Most scientists are button sorters or bottle washers."

Button sorters: they classify data.

Bottle washers: they lovingly fiddle with their methods

and equipment.

Bottom line: credible answers to questions about reality are rare. "The Truth" (capital "T") is more of a will o' the wisp than something you can actually see, hear, touch, smell, or taste.

And this ole boy can be happy with that. My Lord God Yahweh watches over me. So why worry about the details? Even so, study of those details is one of my hobbies.

JawgeFromJawja

(That's Clayton, Rabun County, Georgia. Nine miles from North Carolina, and nine miles from South Carolina, and thankfully twenty years behind the twenty-first century. On any errand, If it takes more than 4 minutes to arrive at the destination, there was a traffic jam.)

[Bravus]

Nice work, sir.

[phkrause]

Nice work, sir.

Bravus not to be critical, but are you addressing Woody or George. Sorry if I'm missing something.

[Bravus]

Yeah, sorry, was talking to George: the stupid Quick Reply bug strikes again.

[Bravus]

Clear evidence has been presented in this thread that the *net* effect of sensible coffee use (2-3 cups per day) has more benefits than costs for health for most people. That's not even debatable.

[ClubV12]

The "clear evidence" you suggest is about as clear as mudd and is in fact debatable!

Aside from that, we DO have "clear evidence" from the Spirit of Prophecy. Perhaps one day science will catch up. Until then, I'll take my advice from a more reliable source.

[Twilight II]

Clear evidence has been presented in this thread that the *net* effect of sensible coffee use (2-3 cups per day) has more benefits than costs for health for most people. That's not even debatable.

Bravus, are you a coffee drinker?

[shelly]

I drink coffee and tea, the occational AMP, ect. I do not drink caffinatede beverages daily, but I do not feel the need to avoid them.