Moderators Bravus Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2011 Twilight, I have already said I drink coffee, and so has shelly. But that's not actually a relevant point either way. I'm not even advocating the drinking of coffee - drink it, don't drink it, I don't care. I'm advocating telling the truth. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted July 4, 2011 Members Share Posted July 4, 2011 Not only do I drink coffee, but I drink Mountain Dew, too. Diet... This thread is 11 pages. It must be caffeinated.. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Twilight, I have already said I drink coffee, and so has shelly. But that's not actually a relevant point either way. I'm not even advocating the drinking of coffee - drink it, don't drink it, I don't care. I'm advocating telling the truth. So do you think you both might be "advocating truth" or making excuses for your own practices? And therefore are incapable of approaching this with an "unbiased" mindset? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 You see, it is one thing to practice something harmful. It is quite another thing to justify it and encourage others to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus Twilight, I have already said I drink coffee, and so has shelly. But that's not actually a relevant point either way. I'm not even advocating the drinking of coffee - drink it, don't drink it, I don't care. I'm advocating telling the truth. So do you think you both might be "advocating truth" or making excuses for your own practices? And therefore are incapable of approaching this with an "unbiased" mindset? Ah, but you see, that goes two ways: those advocating abstinence are in *exactly* the same position of supporting their own behaviour. I do think we, as humans, are capable of rising above that level of thought and debate. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II So do you think you both might be "advocating truth" or making excuses for your own practices? And therefore are incapable of approaching this with an "unbiased" mindset? Ah, but you see, that goes two ways: those advocating abstinence are in *exactly* the same position of supporting their own behaviour. I do think we, as humans, are capable of rising above that level of thought and debate. Most coffee drinkers are actually addicts. They are addicted to the caffeine in the coffee, which is observable. So when you advocate coffee drinking, being a coffee user yourself, my immediate thought is that you have validated your own addiction and now want to gain approval by using a "logical" argument to excuse your addiction. So you encourage others to engage with your own addiction, thereby taking validation from others. But even if others agree with you, and excuse their own addictions, it does not stop your usage being an addiction. And all the studies in the world you find to support your choice of addiction (many probably by other caffeine addicts), will not stop the very basic fact that you are addicted to this substance, therefore your flesh rules you in this area and you are no longer capable of rational unbiased thought on this subject due to your addiction... You addiction demands that you excuse it, that is how the flesh operates. Then it will look for everything it can find to support its demands. This is what I believe you are doing here, being led by the flesh and then seeking the justification the flesh demands. Even trying to claim "logic" rather than "appetite" as your motivation. Maybe we should talk about the "flesh" and "honesty"? Are you aware your flesh is totally incapable of honesty? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2011 So, given that I have repeatedly said I am not advocating coffee drinking, yet you keep stating that I am, what is to blame for *your* dishonesty? Just tell the truth. The truth will make you free. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 4, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 4, 2011 Mark, Just to confirm further what Bravus just said, I would note that his sense of of truthfulness has repeatedly acknowledged and affirmed valid points made by those focusing on the risks of coffee drinking. On the other hand, there are some here that disingenuously refuse to acknowledge even the best clear evidence of any benefit from drinking coffee. Whose bias is most clouding their discernment and honesty? Yes, this cuts both ways. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Are their medicinal benefits for using caffeine, in some situations yes. But is there medicinal benefits for regularly drinking coffee because one is addicted to it? No. Trying to mix the two up is blurring the lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 And like I said, the "flesh" seeks to justify its cravings. This in itself clouds the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 4, 2011 Members Share Posted July 4, 2011 Caffeine Addiction http://www.myaddiction.com/education/articles/caffeine_addiction.html Water Addiction http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=9230 Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Mark, Just to confirm further what Bravus just said, I would note that his sense of of truthfulness has repeatedly acknowledged and affirmed valid points made by those focusing on the risks of coffee drinking. On the other hand, there are some here that disingenuously refuse to acknowledge even the best clear evidence of any benefit from drinking coffee. Whose bias is most clouding their discernment and honesty? Yes, this cuts both ways. Tom Let the sun shine!!! Feeding time over!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I've heard it said lots of things have some medicinal qaulities. Marijuana for instance, good for the eyes, or something. Morphine is good for surgery. Coffee has some medicinal qaulities? Like Bravus said, lets be honest. Saying coffee is harmless across the board and for all people is misleading, it's dishonest. Like any DRUG, it needs to be approached with caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnothin Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 When you get baptised don't they ask you to avoid drugs? I'm assuming that this means drugs for non-medicinal purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2011 Saying coffee is harmless across the board and for all people is misleading, it's dishonest. Like any DRUG, it needs to be approached with caution. Who has said that? I certainly haven't. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Arsenic in small amounts, has proven to be beneficial in the past. Too much water can cause water intoxication, especially if it is distilled water. EGW drank coffee at a couple of times for medicinal reasons. When a friend of mine was in a concentration camp, as a baby, almost died, the Catholic Priest plead with his parents, Reform SDA's to feel him coffee grounds, he survived as did one other child, the only two children who got out alive. Too much coffee can give huge prostate problems, and that is not about the caffeine in it. Let reason prevail. Let common sense prevail. We need to be more concerned with the man in the mirror. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 4, 2011 Members Share Posted July 4, 2011 Arsenic in small amounts, has proven to be beneficial in the past. Too much water can cause water intoxication, especially if it is distilled water. EGW drank coffee at a couple of times for medicinal reasons. When a friend of mine was in a concentration camp, as a baby, almost died, the Catholic Priest plead with his parents, Reform SDA's to feel him coffee grounds, he survived as did one other child, the only two children who got out alive. Too much coffee can give huge prostate problems, and that is not about the caffeine in it. Let reason prevail. Let common sense prevail. We need to be more concerned with the man in the mirror. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus Twilight, I have already said I drink coffee, and so has shelly. But that's not actually a relevant point either way. I'm not even advocating the drinking of coffee - drink it, don't drink it, I don't care. I'm advocating telling the truth. So do you think you both might be "advocating truth" or making excuses for your own practices? And therefore are incapable of approaching this with an "unbiased" mindset? No. I don't feel the need to justify my actions to anyone but God. I just believe in truth. The main reason that the church calls for not drinking coffee is from prophecy-not the bible or science. If that holds enough weight for you that is fine. But it is important to disclose where the practice came from. It is also important to acknowledge alot of the aligations levied at caffine are exagerated or questionable scientifically and the bible is silent on the subject. It is up to the indiviudal to deside if the stateents made by EGW are adequate for them to abstain. I don't really care if someone abstains or not. However, the truth should not be twisted in order to influence their decision. I only support full disclosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II So do you think you both might be "advocating truth" or making excuses for your own practices? And therefore are incapable of approaching this with an "unbiased" mindset? No. I don't feel the need to justify my actions to anyone but God. I just believe in truth. The main reason that the church calls for not drinking coffee is from prophecy-not the bible or science. If that holds enough weight for you that is fine. But it is important to disclose where the practice came from. It is also important to acknowledge alot of the aligations levied at caffine are exagerated or questionable scientifically and the bible is silent on the subject. It is up to the indiviudal to deside if the stateents made by EGW are adequate for them to abstain. I don't really care if someone abstains or not. However, the truth should not be twisted in order to influence their decision. I only support full disclosure. But why would someone accept the views of a professed caffeine addict on the safety of coffee drinking. Have you considered shelly, that when you argue for the use of coffee (citing "science"), you have then stepped into the realm of "advising" or "influencing" another as to their use. Are you prepared for that type of responsibility? Are you sure your science is absolutely correct? Because if Ellen White was inspired by God, then you have set yourself up in opposition. Opposition to a message from God. Which is a very strong position to take... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2011 Dude, Neither shelly nor I is advocating coffee drinking . When you bear false witness about what people are saying, you place yourself in opposition to the Ten Commandments. Which is a very strong position to take... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 5, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 5, 2011 Blind faith - "belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination." http://geico.zag.com/main.html?referrer_id=ZGCOISO0001 What we are seeing here is fideism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism True faith requires reason and discernment. Otherwise it is a fool's errand. "To put blind faith into God is okay but to put blind faith in a human being is not a good idea at best." - http://onelifetimeblog.com/2011/06/16/to...d-idea-at-best/ Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 This is the whole issue with this arguement-the reaching. I am not a caffiene adict. I can go days without drinking caffiene without any ill affects. Then there is the idea that not agreeing with EGW (a human being) is the same as being in opposition to God-again reaching. Just because she is inspired in one area does not mean everything is inspired. She said herself to place what she says against the bible-which I did. I just came to a different conclusion than she did. I can't see how I am in opposition to God when I used the bible to validate or in this case invalidate the statements by EGW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I find Ellen White agrees with this: 1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2011 Right, exactly. So then, with this major study: http://www.annals.org/content/148/12/904.short It says that coffee *does not* increase mortality, and that coffee *may* offer some benefits that *reduce* mortality. If your body is a temple, then you should give it the things that are good for it. Again, not advocating coffee, clarifying the illogic of the claims being made. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 5, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 5, 2011 The clear context of that verse is about sexual immorality. Paul also wrote that the kingdom of heaven was not about eating and drinking... Read Romans 14. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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