olger Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 ~ Science versus revelation ~ Jesus returns. The things of this world pass away. The glory of man is laid in the dust. Science lies charred amidst the smoking ruins of modern intelligence. Revelation is honored throughout eternity. Which one do you want to place your trust in? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think you misunderstand what science is. Science (from Latin: scientia meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world. As long as humanity exist, the science will also exist. That's how we think, that's how we learn, and that's how we live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 A more potent addiction than to caffeine it is...] yes Yoda; it is. People are addicted to false science. Maybe you could donate the first $100,000 to get it started. Words are a lot cheaper than actions. People who want to mess with the truth about science on this topic, are just making a big mess. Touting this so-called Harvard study as "fact" means coffee is good for you. Why if you read enough, the reports even go so far as to say it prevents cancer, high blood pressure, type II diabetes, and on and on. The new wonder drink, with anti-oxidant power to heal. What once once poison, is suddenly become the new wonder liquid - that Ponce de Leon missed out on in his failed quest for the fountain of youth. All we have to do is to put ourselves in the shoes of the recipient of the first lawsuit against someone for giving health information that killed someone..this report actually says upwards of 6 cups of coffee a day would be needed (and OK to drink) in order to fight disease! This much coffee would kill or cripple a lot of people. The injury lawyers are licking their chops over their morning poison. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Here's an interesting report on coffee: http://vitamin-health-online.co.uk/drinking-coffee-health/ Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It is what it is! NO one is forced to believe anything, tis the nature of the human to pick and choose what they will believe. NO ones belief is being asked to change, just looking at all the facts without inuendo, hopefully to make an educated decision, thats all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Here's an interesting report on coffee: http://vitamin-health-online.co.uk/drinking-coffee-health/ That study is more in line with what I took in nursing. Thanks for posting that. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause Here's an interesting report on coffee: http://vitamin-health-online.co.uk/drinking-coffee-health/ That study is more in line with what I took in nursing. Thanks for posting that. Thanks OA. I just also wanted to mention, I didn't post this to reflect that I'm on one side or the other. As I've mentioned a few times, coffee has its good and its bad effects, I guess no problem for many, but all the good can be gotten with fruits and vegetables. There is no need to drink coffee to help with cancer. There are many fruits and vegetables that have the same effects for helping with cancer, with no side effects, period. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Actually; I did realize where u were coming from on that; and thats why I appreciated your post too. You have a great attitude about it all. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 That link from PK is not a scientific paper, though, it's an opinion piece from some people who are peddling vitamins and supplements on the web. There are no citations of scientific evidence, just a lot of opinions. Perhaps there's evidence to support those opinions, but there's no way to tell from that piece whether the ideas were just pulled out of the air. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well "citations" didn't help the Harvard study any. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well, yeah, they kinda did. The article pk quoted claimed coffee worsened inflammation markers. The Harvard study cites the following three scientific studies showing that it actually improves (reduces) inflammation markers: Kempf K, Herder C, Erlund I, et al. Effects of coffee consumption on subclinical inflammation and other risk factors for type 2 diabetes: a clinical trial. Am J Clin Nutr. 2010;91(4):950–957. Lopez-Garcia E, van Dam RM, Qi L, Hu FB. Coffee consumption and markers of inflammation and endothelial dysfunction in healthy and diabetic women. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006;84(4):888–893. Maki T, Pham NM, Yoshida D, et al. The relationship of coffee and green tea consumption with high-sensitivity C-reactive protein in Japanese men and women. Clin Chem Lab Med. 2010;48(6):849–854. In science, evidence trumps unsupported opinion. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Let me say it again. I'm *not* saying 'drink coffee'. I'm saying 'don't claim the evidence says when thing about coffee when it says the opposite'. The truth is important. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Moderation is the real issue and what are a persons medical issues, as you can read below; If you have hypothyroidism, you need conventional medical treatment. Nutrition and herbs can help support conventional treatment, but should not be used by themselves to treat hypothyroidism. Nutrition and Supplements Following these nutritional tips may help reduce symptoms: Eat foods high in B-vitamins and iron, such as whole grains (if no allergy), fresh vegetables, and sea vegetables. Avoid foods that interfere with thyroid function, including broccoli, cabbage, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, kale, spinach, turnips, soybeans, peanuts, linseed, pine nuts, millet, cassava, and mustard greens.If you take thyroid hormone medication, talk to your doctor before eating soy products. There is some evidence soy may interfere with absorption of thyroid hormone. This is just one example, a Goggle search on just about any food group or drink will show us when and why they should not be used. Perspective is a word to remember, the proper use of our own. Science is not the 'bad' that people will often attache to it, but rather our own perceptions of it. Science is not a about idealogical truths but associations of various data input and what that meaning may be. To hold onto data from 20, 30, 40 or 100 yrs ago and say 'we have no more to learn' is think as an ostrich. If a person doesn't want to drink coffee, please do not, or for that matter, brussels sprout either!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 BTW The Hardvard study had over 47 000 participants and was very carefully conducted. It's by no means the only study, but to impeach its conclusions you need to go a bit deeper than the claim that it was 'just asking questions'. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Let me say it again. I'm *not* saying 'drink coffee'. I'm saying 'don't claim the evidence says when thing about coffee when it says the opposite'. The truth is important. Yes, truth matters; and that's why I am even saying anything. The study itself concedes that the evidence is not in yet on the points they have observed in their research. The research has simply collected some information under very controlled conditions, with many ways to misinterpret the findings. It is not even close to being fact yet. The Harvard Study is one of the only ones out there that say this. Hundreds of other studies and specialists say the opposite. It is very easy to manipulate statistics into something they don't mean. This is truly an example of "science, falsely so called." Coffee is a known source of dietary carcinogens such as methylglyoxal, catechol, chlorogenic acid, neochlorogenic acid, and the list goes on and on. Of course "experts" like to debate with their "citations" to try and argue just what degree of cancer risk is present by drinking coffee; but there is no question that these agents and more are found in coffee. You can read more about this in Dr Neal Nedley's book "PROOF POSITIVE," pg 30. For the first carcinogen I named above, Nedley cites the following: 148/ Kasai H, Kumeno K, et al. Mutagenicity Of Methylglyoxal In Coffee; Gann 1982 O Oct; 73 (5) 681-683 All of the chemicals I have named above as being found in coffee, are still in coffee. And this is supported by well-documented scientific research which has not to date been disproven. As I said, The Harvard fiasco leaves a lot of important information out of it's "study." There is a lot more that I havent time to post that makes coffee a poor choice for drinking. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 'Hundreds'? Please list 10. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Now you want numbers games because your claims re The Harvard "Study" are getting a little jittery eh? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Nope, not at all. Your critiques are extremely 'jittery', but I can't shake those. But you've made the claim of 'hundreds', so the numbers game starts with you. Certainly a book like 'Proof Positive' is not a balanced scientific source. You seem to be saying 'hundreds of studies saying coffee is bad, one saying it's good'. It's much more that there's a fairly even balance of papers outlining benefits and harms. That means some sense and discernment are required in making a decision: there might be excellent reasons for avoiding coffee, but an overwhelming preponderance of scientific evidence is not one of them. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Why wouldn't it be a "balanced" scientific source? Please spare us and don't try to call The harvard Study "balanced," Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Nedley's book is not balanced because it strongly pushes a particular agenda: veganism, meditation and a number of other practices. It may well have good things to say and draw on good evidence, but it's making an argument, not simply presenting what the evidence shows. The kind of argument that goes 'this substance, if given to rats in amounts thousands of times the amount in coffee, causes cancer, and there are trace amounts in coffee therefore coffee causes cancer' is not a strong kind of argument. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Nedley's book is not balanced because it strongly pushes a particular agenda: veganism, meditation and a number of other practices. It may well have good things to say and draw on good evidence, but it's making an argument, not simply presenting what the evidence shows. The kind of argument that goes 'this substance, if given to rats in amounts thousands of times the amount in coffee, causes cancer, and there are trace amounts in coffee therefore coffee causes cancer' is not a strong kind of argument. Well I think thats just plain prejudice on your part. Nedley only uses 270 references to support what he teaches us about diet in that section; this is not counting the many references in my nursing textbooks, specifically regarding caffeine. And incidentally Nedley does not dwell inordinately on the carcinogen contents of coffee; he states that it is debatable as to what degree of cancer risk they present; but he did support it with non-biased scientific sources. You are barking up the wrong tree on this one. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Here's my list of 10 recent scholarly peer reviewed papers on the benefits of coffee: Jennifer Stella Bonitaa, Michael Mandaranoa, Donna Shutaa and Joe Vinson (2007). Coffee and cardiovascular disease: In vitro, cellular, animal, and human studies. Pharmacological Research Volume 55, Issue 3: 187-198. Besa Smith, MPH, Deborah L. Wingard, PHD, Tyler C. Smith, MS, Donna Kritz-Silverstein, PHD and Elizabeth Barrett-Connor, MD. (2006. Does Coffee Consumption Reduce the Risk of Type 2 Diabetes in Individuals With Impaired Glucose? Diabetes Care. 29(11): 2385-2390. Esther Lopez-Garcia, PhD; Rob M. van Dam, PhD; Tricia Y. Li, MD; Fernando Rodriguez-Artalejo, MD, PhD; and Frank B. Hu, MD, PhD. (2008). The Relationship of Coffee Consumption with Mortality. Annals of Internal Medicine, 148(12): 904-914. Modi AA, Feld JJ, Park Y, Kleiner DE, Everhart JE, Liang TJ, Hoofnagle JH. (2010). Increased caffeine consumption is associated with reduced hepatic fibrosis. Hepatology, 53(1): 207-208. Esther Lopez-Garcia, PhD; Fernando Rodriguez-Artalejo, MD, PhD; Kathryn M. Rexrode, MD, MPH; Giancarlo Logroscino, MD, PhD; Frank B. Hu, MD, PhD; Rob M. van Dam, PhD. (2009). Coffee Consumption and Risk of Stroke in Women. Circulation, 119: 1116-1123. Chuanhai Cao, Li Wang, Xiaoyang Lin, Malgorzata Mamcarz, Chi Zhang, Ge Bai, Jasson Nong, Sam Sussman, Gary Arendash. (2011). Caffeine Synergizes with Another Coffee Component to Increase Plasma GCSF: Linkage to Cognitive Benefits in Alzheimer's Mice. Journal of Alzheimer's Disease, DOI: 10.3233/JAD-2011-110110. Michael D. Kennedy, Ashley V. Galloway, Leanne J. Dickau and Megan K. Hudson. (2008). The cumulative effect of coffee and a mental stress task on heart rate, blood pressure, and mental alertness is similar in caffeine-naïve and caffeine-habituated females. Nurtition Research, 28(9): 609-614. Jiang-nan Wu, Suzanne C Ho, Chun Zhou, Wen-hua Ling, Wei-qing Chen, Cui-ling Wang and Yu-ming Chen (2008). Coffee consumption and risk of coronary heart diseases: A meta-analysis of 21 prospective cohort studies. International Journal of Cardiology, Volume 137, Issue 3, Pages 216-225. Gary W. Arendash, Chuanhai Cao. (2010). Caffeine and Coffee as Therapeutics Against Alzheimer's Disease. DOI: 10.3233/JAD-2010-091249. Daniela S Sartorelli, Guy Fagherazzi, Beverley Balkau, Marina S Touillaud, Marie-Christine Boutron-Ruault, Blandine de Lauzon-Guillain, and Françoise Clavel-Chapelon. (2010). Differential effects of coffee on the risk of type 2 diabetes according to meal consumption in a French cohort of women: the E3N/EPIC cohort study. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 91(4): 1002-1012. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Here's a Neil Nedley article I found on the web: http://amazinghealth.com/AH-health-caffeine-stress-hormones-Nedley Two citations, one to DSM-IV for the ailment he's describing, and one to his own book. Haven't got the book, perhaps it would be worth getting it. I don't want to impeach him entirely: he has plenty of good stuff to say. I didn't say he's wrong, I said he's not balanced. I think there's evidence for that. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Ha Ha! Wow! The funniest one is "Linkage to Cognitive Benefits in Alzheimer's Mice." What a joke! Now we will all rush out to stalk up on coffee for it's "cognitive" benefits. Bravus; give us some references please. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 The mouse study is a very typical pathway for clinical studies and is prior to human studies (and I think we'd hope that would be the case). One of the other papers addresses Alzheimers evidence in humans. And, finally: how did I guess, as I was posting them, that the mouse would be the one thing you'd seize on? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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