Is the Church Babylon?

[Gibs]

Well OV I'm not a corporation SDA so I don't have to defend her. Becoming a corporation was a bad thing but was not near the first thing that came in. I've listed the problems before and you have read them.

I know you would dismiss our reasons for separating and stick with her. Good Catholics do the same. So do the loyal Sunday keepers.

The shaking time may be about over I don't know, there is some believe it is beginning but they were not with us back 25 to 30 yrs ago, I know that was a great shaking as it is still well and alive, the discontent with what has come in and continues to come in is still well and alive.

The evil forces are gathering hard and fast now and the Catholic church has now a new Catechism and another order of world takeover is being implemented. It tells us one thing for sure, the end is now very close.

OV, the salvation issue is the most important issue of all and my strongest theme. I love two veres very much on that topic and one I always post for a signature verse,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

And then on the same theme,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

OA its getting more and more amazing. I would say that when those go for Sunday worship they will be out of the church and not in.

[teresaq]

Would you still uphold her if and possibly when she rescinds on the Sabbath?

[Gibs]

teresaq(sda),

Time will soon tell as this old world now has just about run out of time.

EGW informed us the last movements will be rapid and man it is closing in very, very hard and fast now.

You mentioned "white washing", well it sure is going on in all the so called churches of the world now. Sin is not called by it's right name anymore.

Now many are saying these are all nailed to His cross today,

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do we have lOVE? We can tell,

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Salvation issue is the one to make sure we have right.

Paul gives it to us best I think, Our only Hope!

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

To be the overcomers as required that is the answer and the power needed as we of our selves are nothing against the Devil and his angels with their expertise at deceptions. They are really well oiled after about 6,000 yrs of training.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

EGW informed us the last movements will be rapid and man it is closing in very, very hard and fast now.

I am sorry; but if you are still free enough to sit so bravely behind your keyboard and parrot such fault-finding, then you obviously have no idea what "very very hard and fast" actually is, or means. 9T, pg 11 is referring to a time much worse that you depict with this message of hopeless fear.

The Church's hope is not a doctrine; or doctrines; IT IS CHRIST. The prodigals are waiting to see the love of The Father in The Father's House, and the Bible is filled with promises about The Father's House, and Jesus vows that it "will be an house of prayer for all nations;" and I'd like, just once, to hear you focus on the Lord's promises, regarding His House/Church. I am one of the many prodigals, who is returning to The Father's House; because I see the Love of The Father there. What exactly do you think you can do about that with your messages here?

My prayer, is that I will be waiting in The Father's House, for the next prodical who comes in after me, just like the faithful church member who waits and prays for me...

And you know; while I am on the subject, Jesus says a lot more about "coming;" than He does about leaving. You are batting for the wrong side my friend.

[Overaged]

To be the overcomers as required that is the answer and the power needed as we of our selves are nothing against the Devil and his angels with their expertise at deceptions. They are really well oiled after about 6,000 yrs of training.

Beware of giving the enemy so much credit!

Chapter 1 -- The Way to Heaven

BY JESUS ALONE.

"Let not your heart be troubled,” He [Jesus] said; “ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.” For your sake I came into the world. I am working in your behalf. When I go away, I shall still work earnestly for you. I came into the world to reveal Myself to you, that you might believe. I go to the Father to cooperate with Him in your behalf. {Hvn 9.1}

The object of Christ’s departure was the opposite of what the disciples feared. It did not mean a final separation. He was going to prepare a place for them, that He might come again, and receive them unto Himself. While He was building mansions for them, they were to build characters after the divine similitude. {Hvn 9.2}

Still the disciples were perplexed. Thomas, always troubled by doubts, said, “Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.” {Hvn 10.1}

There are not many ways to heaven. Each one may not choose his own way. Christ says, “I am the way: . . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.” Since the first gospel sermon was preached, when in Eden it was declared that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent’s head, Christ had been uplifted as the way, the truth, and the life. He was the way when Adam lived, when Abel presented to God the blood of the slain lamb, representing the blood of the Redeemer. Christ was the way by which patriarchs and prophets were saved. He is the way by which alone we can have access to God.—DA 663. {Hvn 10.2}

THE SURETY OF OUR DELIVERANCE.

By His humanity, Christ touched humanity; by His divinity, He lays hold upon the throne of God. As the Son of man, He gave us an example of obedience; as the Son of God, He gives us power to obey. It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses saying, “I AM THAT I AM. . . . Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14. This was the pledge of Israel’s deliverance. So when He came “in the likeness of men,” He declared Himself the I AM. The Child of Bethlehem, the meek and lowly Saviour, is God “manifest in the flesh.” 1 Timothy 3:16. And to us He says: “I AM the Good Shepherd.” “I AM the living Bread.” “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” “All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.” John 10:11; 6:51; 14:6; Matthew 28:18. I AM the assurance of every promise. I AM; be not afraid. “God with us” is the surety of our deliverance from sin, the assurance of our power to obey the law of heaven.—DA 24, 25. {Hvn 10.3}

HELP OTHERS FIND JESUS, THE WAY.

Christ gave Himself to a shameful, agonizing death, showing His great travail of soul to save the perishing. Oh, Christ is able, Christ is willing, Christ is longing, to save all who will come unto Him! Talk to souls in peril and get them to behold Jesus upon the cross, dying to make it possible for Him to pardon. Talk to the sinner with your own heart overflowing with the tender, pitying love of Christ. Let there be deep earnestness; but not a harsh, loud note should be heard from the one who is trying to win the soul to look and live. First have your own soul consecrated to God. As you look upon our Intercessor in heaven, let your heart be broken. Then, softened and subdued, you can address repenting sinners as one who realizes the power of redeeming love. {Hvn 11.1}

Pray with these souls, by faith bringing them to the foot of the cross; carry their minds up with your mind, and fix the eye of faith where you look, upon Jesus the Sin Bearer. Get them to look away from their poor, sinful selves to the Saviour, and the victory is won. They behold for themselves the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. They see the Way, the Truth, the Life. The Sun of Righteousness sheds its bright beams into the heart. The strong tide of redeeming love pours into the parched and thirsty soul, and the sinner is saved to Jesus Christ. {Hvn 11.2}

Christ crucified—talk it, pray it, sing it, and it will break and win hearts. This is the power and wisdom of God to gather souls for Christ. Formal, set phrases, the presentation of merely argumentative subjects, is productive of little good. The melting love of God in the hearts of the workers will be recognized by those for whom they labor. Souls are thirsting for the waters of life. Do not be empty cisterns. If you reveal the love of Christ to them, you may lead the hungering, thirsting ones to Jesus, and He will give them the bread of life and the water of salvation.—6T 66, 67. {Hvn 12.1}

THE TRUE PATH THAT LEADS TO HEAVEN.

Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to heaven, that they must do something to merit the favor of God. They seek to make themselves better by their own unaided efforts. This they can never accomplish. Christ has made the way by dying our Sacrifice, by living our Example, by becoming our great High Priest. He declares, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” If by any effort of our own we could advance one step toward the ladder, the words of Christ would not be true. But when we accept Christ, good works will appear as fruitful evidence that we are in the way of life, that Christ is our way, and that we are treading the true path that leads to heaven.—RH November 4, 1890. {Hvn 12.2}

Jesus does not say that we come to The Father by doctrine! We come to The Father; ONLY through Jesus...No other way. This is the "cutting truth" "the straight testimony" for these last days. It cuts through every works-based effort, and sets straight all the crooked ministries not centered on Christ and Him crucified.

This is what the "Corporate" Adventist Church teaches today, and it is shaking many out; but many more are heeding the call of Jesus, who says "Come." Jesus doesn't say "Go!"

[teresaq]

teresaq(sda),

Time will soon tell as this old world now has just about run out of time.

EGW informed us the last movements will be rapid and man it is closing in very, very hard and fast now.

You mentioned "white washing", well it sure is going on in all the so called churches of the world now. Sin is not called by it's right name anymore.

Now many are saying these are all nailed to His cross today,

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do we have lOVE? We can tell,

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Salvation issue is the one to make sure we have right.

Paul gives it to us best I think, Our only Hope!

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

To be the overcomers as required that is the answer and the power needed as we of our selves are nothing against the Devil and his angels with their expertise at deceptions. They are really well oiled after about 6,000 yrs of training.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[teresaq]

A non-defensive, accurate, reading of your posts might show we were all in more agreement than not. :)

[Overaged]

A non-defensive, accurate, reading of your posts might show we were all in more agreement than not.

Depends what you mean by that.

[Gibs]

A non-defensive, accurate, reading of your posts might show we were all in more agreement than not.

I find you are right and thought so when I first replied to your post.

We must look to our strength and stay and the only way and hope, Christ in us and all other issues pale in comparison.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

A non-defensive, accurate, reading of your posts might show we were all in more agreement than not.

I find you are right and thought so when I first replied to your post.

We must look to our strength and stay and the only way and hope, Christ in us and all other issues pale in comparison.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

A non-defensive, accurate, reading of your posts might show we were all in more agreement than not.

I find you are right and thought so when I first replied to your post.

We must look to our strength and stay and the only way and hope, Christ in us and all other issues pale in comparison.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

They should. :)

[Overaged]

Yes. I agree, re "other issues" like trying to accuse the church of being "babylon."

[Gibs]

OV,

Didn't the Remnant church leave the apostate church of the dark ages? Could it happen again? Surely could.

It boils down I believe to an individuals discision. That's who make up the church is it's members whether few or many.

Jesus must have saw it would be the few.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That is an alarming statement. Here is another,

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

Notice the date and do you think she would not tell her sister the truth as she knew and understood it?

We must be on our toes and follow Him, He alone is our safe guide.

OV, to my knowledge I've never stated the SDA church is Babylon, that is not my call to make, Yah knows so it is His call.

I do choose though to not uphold all the teachings she now holds to and have separated. I find I am still in His Church.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

OV,

Didn't the Remnant church leave the apostate church of the dark ages? Could it happen again? Surely could.

OV, to my knowledge I've never stated the SDA church is Babylon, that is not my call to make, Yah knows so it is His call.

I do choose though to not uphold all the teachings she now holds to and have separated. I find I am still in His Church.

I have already shown where you posted that you expect it to soon become babylon; and by many of your posts, including this last one; you already class it as "apostate;" and urge people to separate from it. None of that is your "call" either. When you start to repeatedly parrot the "few there be" texts and passages; you simply pit the Bible against itself, for you ignore the other part of that story:

Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice; it says "MANY shall come," and not one word about leaving.

[phkrause]

Its the same stuff over and over and over and over again.

[Woody]

Its the same stuff over and over and over and over again.

[Gibs]

[Overaged]

Notice; it says "MANY shall come," and not one word about leaving.

OV, I do beg to differ with you. It is each of our duties to bring out the truth of things and expose error. No it isn't popular and doesn't make me liked. But Jesus tells me, "they hated me before they hated you".

[teresaq]

For a church to not become a part of Babylon it must stay pure of not being of the world and embracing it's ways just to get members. The members must be brought in to take and be a part of the pure church with out a taint of the world in it.

A fight for reform in the church is needed and needed bad and I'm just one of the ones of many that see it that way.

Jesus and all the Apostles were reformers and then it happened again in the dark ages and full and complete reform never did happen in any church denomination. Continuing reform is what is needed constantly as so many errors have come in counted as kosher.

This is echoed by EGW stating the church militant is not the church triumphant or perfect. (my paraphrase) Not a perfect quote. It must be continually fighting it's way upward finding it's flaws and removing them. It will not in most cases come from the top, it must be of the members as a whole.

A great number of us here tried for years to move it and it wouldn't budge and so we pulled out like the reformers of old.

Now we are home churchers, same as what is going on in the book of Acts. They were home churching.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, I think what you may be trying to say is that the SDA church is apostate, or has apostatized to some degree, not that it is babylon. At least according to my understanding of the two terms....Perhaps more study in those areas is needed. It may indeed becoming babylon...perhaps when the Sunday law comes much of it will become babylon.

The Jewish church apostatized so greatly so many times that it could have rightly been called "babylon" but God never referred to it as such. I think the same is true of the SDA organization, which is not to say I think it has apostatized to the degree that the Jewish church had.

[Gibs]

teresaq(sda),

I like the way you put it, no we will never call her Babylon, many will see and understand and take a right stand.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

By EGW

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

(Sorry, I have not yet figured out how to put things in fancy boxes)

I just upgraded my membership so I had the ability to post on all threads. The quote above was originally posted by Brother Peter way up on page 2. I have been exposed to the entire spectrum of Adventism - from the most conservative to the most liberal. I have met "Badventists", "Sadventists", "Madventists", and "Gladventists". In each group, there have been those who are on the verge of calling the church Babylon. At the risk of sounding like I am barging in on a long-standing debate, I would like to propose an alternative concept. Given the EGW quote from Brother Peter above, could it be possible that Babylon consists of those who blindly follow the man-made edicts of any denomination (whether SDA, Catholicism, Baptist, or whatever)? Could it be that those who truly follow the message given by the Lord in His Holy Word are the ones being called out of Babylon (no matter what their denominational affiliation)? As a student of "religion" (i.e., denominations), I have never found one that adheres to all the precepts of the Bible - they all seem to focus on some parts of the Word while avoiding other parts. There are many modern revivalists out there who are beyond non-denominationalism - they are anti-denominationalists. Could it be that, when the angel of Rev. 18 is crying to "Come out of her", he is saying to seek an inimate relationship with Jesus and His Spirit rather than a relationship with a denomination, because it is the grace of Jesus that saves us, not the edicts of a denomination? Just a question ...

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I tend to agree and I too have posted the quote above and a little more of it,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

As the last paragraph reveals it was to her older sister whom she would have no bias but to tell her what she truly knew.

The question arises, what is a remnant and who would that be in these last days? Well a remnant is but a small letover piece of the original. So that I'm afraid boils down to the few that hear His voice and none other and follow Him only, ah! the same as the first He set up.

Jesus wasn't just "whistling dixie" when He made this statement,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Uh Oh, there's that few, that little Remant piece!

I do believe what has come into the churches is too wide to go through that strait gate that scrapes off the excess and go that narrow way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[teresaq]

Could it be that, when the angel of Rev. 18 is crying to "Come out of her", he is saying to seek an inimate relationship with Jesus and His Spirit rather than a relationship with a denomination, because it is the grace of Jesus that saves us, not the edicts of a denomination? Just a question ...

I like the thought. Very much!

I do believe that SDAism does have the truth as an organization in a way that no other organization has but that it is up to us to search for that truth and not rely on anyone to hand it to us.

Apart from that, I fully agree with your thoughts. I think sometimes we may not realize that we may be giving the impression in our defense of the organization that we look like that org. is our god. Even defending God Himself is unnecessary if done in the wrong spirit towards our fellowman. After all Jesus cared more about the salvation of the ones reviling Him on the cross than He did about defending Himself.

Shouldn't we, as His followers, follow His example?

[cheddar]

Doesn’t anyone do word studies anymore? The great harlot Babylon of Rev. is identified as a great city and that great city is Jerusalem.

Babylon is not some generic term for all things that are evil. Does the SDA church rule all the nations of the earth and make the world drunk on the wine of her fornication? I don’t think so and neither does the papacy.

The beast power has seven heads which represent the religious powers and ten horns which represent the secular powers with the whore Babylon riding on top. Which tells me that the beast will rule the world (church and state combined) and the capital city will be in Jerusalem.

Three major religions lay claim to Jerusalem (Christianity, Islam and Judaism). For everything that God does, Satan has a counterfeit. In the last days Jesus will be performing the final work in the heavenly sanctuary of the new Jerusalem. So in order to take the focus off that Satan will come and impersonate Jesus and set up shop in old Jerusalem.

I doubt it will be old when he gets thru with it, however. In Isaiah it is referred to as the ‘golden city’. So he will probably make it more spectacular than anything man has ever seen.