Show where the Creation 7th Day Adventists disagree with Ellen White

[skyblue888]

I believe we are to put away sin.

You have not answered my question though.

Are you claiming that since you have been converted you guys have not committed one willfull sin and that if you had you would have committed the unpardonable sin?

If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, you are claiming that you have not committed any willfull sinning for some time for if you were to you would be lost. Is that not what you are teaching?

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

I believe we are to put away sin.

You have not answered my question though.

[...]

sky

sky,

I refuse to play your game. I have answered your question with the Word. When YOU "put away sin," we shall be on the same page.

[skyblue888]

Not on the same page as you brother because even if I were to put away all sin I would be the last one to know about it or be conscious of it and if by some unknown means to me I was to be made aware of that I would immediately acknowledge myself the chief of sinners.

I have shared with you some very pertinent statements from The Sanctified Life and from the 1893 General Conference Bulletin and yet you have dismissed them. Yet these statements contain the true light on this very issue.

sky

[Light Fox]

Sky - you are saying that "if I knew I put away all sin, I would call myself the chief of sinners."

How would this would not make you a liar?

The truth of the matter is very simple. We do not claim to have put away all sin - that would be foolish. How can we know whether we have put away all unknown sins when the very concept is that they are "unknown?"

What we can say - and do say - is that Christ keeps us from committing any and all known sin. I am an intelligent being, capable of knowing whether I am rebelling against my Father in Heaven and if I am not. Sanctification does not mean a lapsing into stupidity, or an increase in dishonesty to where calling ones self a sinner while not sinning is considered "just" or "true."

Does this - being saved from sin, having ceased to sin in Christ's power - make me a great person of many attainments? No, absolutely not. I am, of myself, the "chief of sinners." By virtue of what I have done in my past life, I am the chief of sinners, which is exactly how Paul used the term (1 Tim 1:13).

Does this mean that I still knowingly sin?

No.

Does this mean I am too foolish to know if I am violating my convictions? In short, that I somehow can know when I am sinning, but not when I am not sinning?

No.

Does this change in any way the fact that Christ keeps me, by His power, perfectly? Or that we are instructed to give this testimony plainly of His keeping power?

No.

If you think to object to that, I suggest you read 1 John 3:9 cf. 1 John 2:5.

[skyblue888]

Just answer the question Qinael: Are you saying that since you have been born again you have not committed one willfull sin?

Because if you have, according to your intepretation of certain passages of Scriptures, you are lost.

sky

[Light Fox]

Sky,

I am sensing a largely fault-finding, "tempting" spirit coming from you. You have neglected, in this and several other threads, to answer any of my questions. If you cannot answer simple queries about your own statements, I am not going to expend energy answering yours.

"And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things." (Matthew 21:27)

[skyblue888]

Oh please. Okay, you choose not to answer the question.

I am afraid that you are finding yourself in an untenable position.

sky :)

[Pastor_Chick]

Oh please. Okay, you choose not to answer the question.

I am afraid that you are finding yourself in an untenable position.

sky

sky,

How are you intending the use of "untenable?" Are you meaning a "groundless position?" Is that solely based on not answering YOUR question(s)?

Do you really think refusing to play "mind-games" with you is a basis for implying people do not have a particular experience with God that differs from yours?

In one of your previous posts you stepped into the "judgment seat" and used the word "lost." Interesting evangelism technique -- nay, more like abominable.

You are free to clarify if it is possible. AND, please offer some support from inspiration for your reasoning.

[skyblue888]

Honestly, I have no idea as to what you are talking about.

Where is the evidence for all of your assertions???

sky

[Gerr]

If you accept EGW prophetic ministry and accept her writings, how can you say the Holy Spirit is not a person?

[Pastor_Chick]

If you accept EGW prophetic ministry and accept her writings, how can you say the Holy Spirit is not a person?

Gerry,

When one studies all of the writings and takes the preponderance of the evidence, one can see the clear picture of what "person" this is.

The Bible teaches us the truth clearly.

Very simply, Ellen White tells us that the Father said to the Son, "Let us make man in our image...".

To cut the teaching short, we see that first Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and the Holy Spirit was "blown" into the "nostrils" of Adam.

Then Eve was taken from Adam, which made the "second person" of the creation AND the final illustration of the "image and likeness of God."

An exhaustive study of the subject is much larger than space afforded here.

[Gerr]

Holy Spirit, The, is God.

1. As Jehovah. Ex 17:7; Heb 3:7-9; Nu 12:6; 2Pe 1:21.

2. As Jehovah of hosts. Isa 6:3,8-10; Ac 28:25.

3. As Jehovah, Most High. Ps 78:17,21; Ac 7:51.

4. Being invoked as Jehovah. Lu 2:26-29; Ac 4:23-25; 1:16,20; 2Th 3:5.

5. As called God. Ac 5:3,4.

6. As joined with the Father and the Son in the baptismal formula. Mt 28:19.

7. As eternal. Heb 9:14.

8. As omnipresent. Ps 139:7-13.

9. As omniscient. 1Co 2:10.

10. As omnipotent. Lu 1:35; Ro 15:19.

11. As the Spirit of glory and of God. 1Pe 4:14.

12. As Creator. Ge 1:26,27; Job 33:4.

13. As equal to, and one with the Father. Mt 28:19; 2Co 13:14.

14. As Sovereign Disposer of all things. Da 4:35; 1Co 12:6,11.

15. As Author of the new birth. Joh 3:5,6; 1Jo 5:4.

16. As raising Christ from the dead. Ac 2:24; 1Pe 3:18; Heb 13:20; Ro 1:4.

17. As inspiring Scripture. 2Ti 3:16; 2Pe 1:21.

18. As the source of wisdom. 1Co 12:8; Isa 11:2; Joh 16:13; 14:26.

19. As the source of miraculous power. Mt 12:28; Lu 11:20; Ac 19:11; Ro 15:19.

20. As appointing and sending ministers. Ac 13:2,4; 9:38; 20:28.

21. As directing where the gospel should be preached. Ac 16:6,7,10.

22. As dwelling in saints. Joh 14:17; 1Co 14:25; 3:16; 6:19.

23. As Comforter of the Church. Ac 9:31; 2Co 1:3.

24. As sanctifying the Church. Eze 37:28; Ro 15:16.

25. As the Witness. Heb 10:15; 1Jo 5:9.

26. As convincing of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. Joh 16:8-11.

Holy Spirit, the Personality Of.

1. He creates and gives life. Job 33:4.

2. He appoints and commissions ministers. Isa 48:16; Ac 13:2; 20:28.

3. He directs ministers where to preach. Ac 8:29; 10:19,20.

4. He directs ministers where not to preach. Ac 16:6,7.

5. He instructs ministers what to preach. 1Co 2:13.

6. He spoke in, and by, the prophets. Ac 1:16; 1Pe 1:11,12; 2Pe 1:21.

7. He strives with sinners. Ge 6:3.

8. He reproves. Joh 16:8.

9. He comforts. Ac 9:31.

10. He helps our infirmities. Ro 8:26.

11. He teaches. Joh 14:26; 1Co 12:3.

12. He guides. Joh 16:13.

13. He sanctifies. Ro 15:16; 1Co 6:11.

14. He testifies of Christ. Joh 15:26.

15. He glorifies Christ. Joh 16:14.

16. He has a power of his own. Ro 15:13.

17. He searches all things. Ro 11:33,34; 1Co 2:10,11.

18. He works according to his own will. 1Co 12:11.

19. He dwells with saints. Joh 14:17.

20. He can be grieved. Eph 4:30.

21. He can be vexed. Isa 63:10.

22. He can be resisted. Ac 7:51.

23. He can be tempted. Ac 5:9.

Torrey, R. (1995). The new topical text book : A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos research Systems, Inc.

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. CH 222.

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.--We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

8 (John 15:26, 27). A Gift Unexcelled.—Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation. …

Nichol, F. D. (1978; 2002). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 6 (1052–1053). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Pastor_Chick]

Gerry,

I would suggest that you "study to show thyself approved unto God." Copying from some theological source does not sway me, for I am a learner at the "feet of Jesus."

I will give you one example of how faulty your source is.

He creates and gives life. Job 33:4.

The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (KJV)

The Hebrew dictionary reveals the following:

For the Hebrew word "spirit"...

7307. ruwach, roo'-akh; from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; fig. life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extens. a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (includ. its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I would suggest that you "study to show thyself approved unto God." Copying from some theological source does not sway me, for I am a learner at the "feet of Jesus."

I will give you one example of how faulty your source is.

Faulty source? Which of those referenced items is from a faulty source?

Quote:

He creates and gives life. Job 33:4.

The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (KJV)

The Hebrew dictionary reveals the following:

For the Hebrew word "spirit"...

Originally Posted By: Strong's

7307. ruwach, roo'-akh; from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; fig. life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extens. a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (includ. its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

For the Hebrew word "breath"...

Originally Posted By: Strong's

5397. neshamah, nesh-aw-maw'; fr. H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concr.) an animal:--blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

As any Rabbi will tell you, there is no place in the Old Testament where you can find "personality" in the Spirit or the breath.

It is necessary to know for yourself what is truth.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

Of course, I study for myself. I used somebody's work for convenience. So which of them is unbiblical? Ahem, using a rabbi for authority?

And what did Jesus mean when He said, ESV | ‎Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

[Pastor_Chick]

... Ahem, using a rabbi for authority?

And what did Jesus mean when He said, ESV | ‎Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Gerry,

Whether you accept it or not, a Rabbi can tell us which day the Sabbath is, for example. They have some understanding of the OT Scriptures. Obviously, they cannot see YAHSHUA in the OT, and part of the reason is that Christians teach the pagan Trinity which the Rabbi just cannot find in holy writ.

It is easy to explain what "Jesus" meant in John 4:24, because He told us in the verses preceding.

As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. (Job 27:2-4; KJV)

For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:34-36; NASB)

So, I would say unto you...

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is [a] Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:22-24)

NOTE: YAHSHUA teaches that "God" is "the Father."

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? (Mal. 2:10)

And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he [not them]: (Mark 12:32)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:4-6)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:5)

[phkrause]

Whether you accept it or not, a Rabbi can tell us which day the Sabbath is, for example. They have some understanding of the OT Scriptures. Obviously, they cannot see YAHSHUA in the OT, and part of the reason is that Christians teach the pagan Trinity which the Rabbi just cannot find in holy writ.

Of course Jews would have an understanding of OT Hebrew they wrote it and know what they meant. And they can see Jesus but refuse to accept him. There are many Messianic Jews who have no problem seeing Jesus. And not only the OT, they also have an understanding of the NT, which they also don't want to accept.

[Gerr]

Whether you accept it or not, a Rabbi can tell us which day the Sabbath is, for example. They have some understanding of the OT Scriptures. Obviously, they cannot see YAHSHUA in the OT, and part of the reason is that Christians teach the pagan Trinity which the Rabbi just cannot find in holy writ.

Should we also accept their understanding about the Messiah whom they crucified? Or accept all their interpretations about how the Sabbath is to be kept?

Quote:

It is easy to explain what "Jesus" meant in John 4:24, because He told us in the verses preceding.

As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. (Job 27:2-4; KJV)

For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:34-36; NASB)

The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as: One who can speak, grieved, comfort, guide, convict, create, take a person a vision. That sounds like a person. And EGW described the HS as such:

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. CH 222.

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.--We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Trinity a pagan teaching? Have you considered the possibility that most of pagan teachings including the Trinity are merely corruptions of the Truth? Do/should we reject the OT sacrificial system and Christ's Sacrificial death because pagans also teach animal and human sacrifice?

[Gerr]

Oh, Bro. Chick, where art thou? I hope you are okay.

[Pastor_Chick]

Gerry,

Thank you for your thoughts. I am safe, though my attentions have been consumed by my war against AIDS in Africa. Recent research findings have confirmed what I have believed for many years.

[phkrause]

Gerry,

Thank you for your thoughts. I am safe, though my attentions have been consumed by my war against AIDS in Africa. Recent research findings have confirmed what I have believed for many years.

And what would that be? Care to share?

[Pastor_Chick]

pk,

I wish more persons were interested. Thank you.

Before I go too deeply into the matter (and this might warrant another thread altogether), let me recommend a 2009 documentary "House of Numbers." It can be downloaded from YouTube. This is only a starting place, but it will help lay some ground work.

Thank you again for your interest.

[Ron Lambert]

One of the classic OT texts that Christians from the time of Chirst onward used to prove the divinity of the Son is Psalms 110:1:

Quote:

The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (NJKV)

Jesus HImself quoted this text in Matthew 22:44 (see also Luke 20:42), and then He asked in the next verse: "If David then calls Him `Lord,' how is He his Son?"

Notice in Psalms 110:1 the word used for the second Lord is the same as the word for the second Lord in Psalms 97:5:

Quote:

"The mountains melt like wax at the presence of the Lord, At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth." (NKJV)

This is probably the chief proof-text used by Christians, which Jews could not answer--until the Masoretic scribes of about the seventh century added special points to the Hebrew text (which originally only had consonants, no vowels) to indicate vowel sounds, and when they did this, they arbitrarily made the second lord in Psalms 110:1 "adoni" and the second lord in Psalms 97:5 "adonai." Jewish scholars today will assert that "adonai" refers to God, and that "adoni" was only used to refer to a human lord or master--and they find one instance where this word was applied to Abraham (Genesis 24:12), so they claim that the second lord in Psalms 110:1 referred to Abraham.

Obviously this makes little sense in context. Why would David refer to Abraham as his lord? But this is the means by which the Masoretic scribes tried to defuse or negate this long-used and long-unanwerable proof text used by Christians. Many people, using the Received Text (Textus Receptus) handed down to us through the Masoretic scribes, think that the original text contradicts the Christian use of Psalms 110:1. But the original text WAS ALL CONSONANTS. Therefore the original Hebrew for the second lord in both Psalms 110:1 and Psalms 97:5 was exactly the same. It was the Masoretic scribes who added the ending vowels.

On the whole, we must have great respect for the Jewish scribes who went to great lengths to preserve the original wording of the Old Testament text. But in this one case, we have the Masoretic scribes tampering with the text by adding something that was not in the original.