What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[John317]

...The only guy within the time hack of Ellen's life who expressed a "new" belief IN the Trinity was KICKED OUT...

...That should really be enough.

...I mean REALLY!

Who is this-- J.H. Kellogg? If this is who you refer to, J.H. Kellogg wasn't kicked out for a "new belief in the Trinity". He was kicked out for teaching that God is in all of nature and that we can literally taste God in the food, drink God in the water, and feel God in the water in our showers and baths.

In 1913, the editor of the SDA paper, the Review & Herald, published an article in that paper in which he stated that the SDA Church believes in "the Trinity." He wasn't kicked out, and in fact, Ellen White afterwards selected this editor to be one of the original directors on the Ellen White Estate, something she never would have done if she didn't have full confidence in the views and character of this man. He name was Wilcox, a highly respected and regarded leader in the SDA Church.

[John317]

You're doing the same thing in this post that you did in the previous two: you're using human reasoning to arrive at truth instead of accepting the plain revelations from God on this topic. That is like reasoning about the resurrection to the point of saying it does not occur, instead of letting the plain statements of Scripture settle the question.

In so doing, you have chosen to contradict the clear statements of Inspiration. You must be aware of this fact.

For instance, you claim that the "Spirit of God" is no different from "the spirit in man." However, Ellen White says clearly that "the Spirit of God" is a reference to the Holy Spirit whom Christ promised to send. See Education, page 134.

[John317]

The following should settle the question once and for all.

Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32

3829 — The Holy Spirit n Personality?

Question:

Can't we say that the Holy Spirit is a

personality, as long as the personal pronoun

is attributed to it? T. A. Z.

Answer:

The use of the personal pronoun is not of itself proof that the Holy Spirit is a personality, and yet the work of the Spirit is the work of a personality. By the Spirit both the Father and the Son come personally to every soul that receives the Spirit. In that wonderful sense which no human being can comprehend, the Spirit comes to each soul as a personality. And yet it does not have what we would call human personality of being in one place only at one time, that is, such personality as has our Lord Himself — in one place as He is in no other place. The Holy Spirit may be in any number of places at one and the same time, bringing the special presence of God in each of those places. In the office of the "Signs of the Times" there are fourteen different telephones all connecting with the manager. The manager may connect all these with him at one and the same time. He could issue a general order so that the foreman of each department could hear his voice at the same time. In a way he is personally present in every department. Every department hears his voice. The marvelous invention of the telephone makes him present in fifteen different places at the same time. So it is that God's Spirit makes the Father and the Son present in as many different places as God may direct, at one and the same time. We know somewhat of the working. We understand how it is to some extent of the Lord's ways and methods. We see the effects, but we know almost nothing of the nature and the power that Infinity uses to communicate with man. Let us be willing to leave it there. In some instances the Spirit is represented as the great life of God. In some it is spoken of as a power that is poured out and shed forth. To the individual it comes as the representative of the personal God. Therefore it may be spoken of as a personality, and looking at it from another view-point, as not a personalityIn case anyone missed it the Holy Spirit was God even less than Christ was "GOD".....

All the above settles is that there were SDAs in 1912 who disbelieved in the Trinity. But we know that, do we not?

What you fail to mention is that there were also SDAs who did believe in the Trinity.

You also fail to mention-- was it a deliberate omission, by any chance?-- that the editor of the Review and Herald published in this same church paper (1913) a statement that the SDA Church believes in "the Trinity."

Ellen White never disputed or objected to what the editor wrote. As a matter of fact, as I said before, she afterwards selected this same editor to be one of the original members of the Ellen G. White Estate.

[John317]

Let's look carefully at a few key statements by Ellen White on the Holy Spirit:

Quote:

Christ gave His representative, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This Gift could not be excelled. . . . On the day of Pentecost Christ gave His disciples the Holy Spirit as their Comforter. It was ever to abide with His church. During the whole Jewish economy the influence of this Spirit has often been revealed in a marked manner, but not in full. The Spirit had been waiting for the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Manuscript 44, 1898. {CTr 301.5}

NOTE: 1) The Holy Spirit is Christ's representative.

Since the Holy Spirit is Christ's representative, the Holy Spirit cannot at the same time be Christ Himself.

2) The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. (Notice that He is a person.)

Who is the first person of the Godhead? Who is the second person of the Godhead?

3) Did Christ give Himself on the day of Pentecost or did He give His respresentative, the Holy Spirit?

4) The Holy Spirit, Christ's personal representative, could not come in His fullness until Christ returned to the Father.

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love! The contemplation of this love will cleanse the soul from all selfishness. It will lead the disciple to deny self, take up the cross, and follow the Redeemer. {CH 222.2}

1) The Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2) This Godhead existed at the time of the Fall. (So we know that the Holy Spirit was active thousands of years before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.)

3) The Holy Spirit was one of the three persons of the Godhead who was stirred with pity for the human race.

4) The Holy Spirit was one of the three persons of the Godhead who gave Themselves to the working out of the plan redemption.

Notice that the working out of this plan requires that the Holy Spirit be capable of feeling, thinking, and making decisions. (This agrees completely with what the Bible tells us about the Holy Spirit.)

[Pastor_Chick]

I cannot see how what Ellen White has written describes what the Trinity doctrine (now embraced by the SDA) teaches.

I noticed her usage of the word "personage" which she applies to the Father and the Son, but never to the Holy Spirit.

Here is one such example from 1905:

"And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." All through the Scriptures, the Father and the Son are spoken of as two distinct personages. You will hear men endeavoring to make the Son of God a nonentity. He and the Father are one, but they are two personages. Wrong sentiments regarding this are coming in, and we shall all have to meet them. (RH 07-13-05)

[John317]

I cannot see how what Ellen White has written describes what the Trinity doctrine (now embraced by the SDA) teaches.

I noticed her usage of the word "personage" which she applies to the Father and the Son, but never to the Holy Spirit.

Here is one such example from 1905:

Originally Posted By: EGW

"And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." All through the Scriptures, the Father and the Son are spoken of as two distinct personages. You will hear men endeavoring to make the Son of God a nonentity. He and the Father are one, but they are two personages. Wrong sentiments regarding this are coming in, and we shall all have to meet them. (RH 07-13-05)

Notice that she is not concerned about men making the Holy Spirit "a nonentity."

As for Ellen White's not having used the word "personage" in her descriptions of the Holy Spirit, it should be observed that Ellen White said that the Holy Spirit is "a person," a "living person," a "divine person," "as much of a person as God is a person," that the Holy Spirit has a "personality," a "distinct personality," that He is "all the fullness of the Godhead," and that He is "the third person of the Godhead." Ellen White also says that the Holy Spirit is one of "three Beings in heaven," and is one of the "three great Worthies in heaven."

Ellen White often refers to the Holy Spirit in ways that show she viewed Him as a living person. For instance, she often speaks of the Spirit as "He," "Him," and attributes qualities to Him that only belong to persons, such as a "will," "feelings," "planning," "giving Himself," etc. Of course the Bible does the same.

Finally, please examine carefully the following clear statements concerning the Holy Spirit in the Spirit of prophecy (i.e, the writings of Ellen G. White):

Quote:

The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. {Ev 614.2}

The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have

615

everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. {Ev 614.3}

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Pre-existent, Self-existent Son of God.--Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

From Everlasting.--While God's Word speaks of the humanity of Christ when upon this earth, it also speaks decidedly regarding His pre-existence. The Word existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Before men or angels were created, the Word was with

616

God, and was God.--Review and Herald, April 5, 1906. {Ev 615.4}

Christ shows them that, although they might reckon His life to be less than fifty years, yet His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures.--Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899. {Ev 616.1}

Life, Original, Unborrowed, Underived.--Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.--The Desire of Ages, p. 530 (1898) {Ev 616.2}

With the Father at Sinai.--When they [israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.--Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866) {Ev 616.3}

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

617

{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Given all of the above evidence, I can't see how anyone can logically claim that the Holy Spirit is not not a personage simply because Ellen White did not appy the word "personage" to the Holy Spirit. After all "personage" is a person, and Ellen White is plain that the Holy Spirit is a living person. She even says that the Holy Spirit has a personality distinct from that of Christ and that the Holy Spirit is the personal representative of Christ.

Here's how Webster's dictionary (1828) defines "person":

PERSON, n. per'sn. [L. persona; said to be compounded of per, through or by, and sonus, sound; a Latin word signifying primarily a mask used by actors on the state.]

1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person. It is applied alike to a man, woman or child.

A person is a thinking intelligent being.

The above is the only definition that fits the significance of Ellen White's use of the word "person" in relation to the Holy Spirit.

Here's how the same dictionary defines "personage"--

PERSONAGE, n. A man or woman of distinction; as an illustrious personage.

1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage.

2. Character assumed.

The Venetians, naturally grave, love to give in to the follies of such seasons, when disguised in a false personage.

3. Character represented.

Some persons must be found, already known in history, whom we may make the actors and personages of this fable.

Notice that in the dictionary definition as well as in Ellen White's writings, all "personages" are living persons.

Since the Father and the Son are both "persons" and "personages," it is clear from everything else the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy says-- including that the Holy Spirit is a "living person" and a "living Being"-- that we have more than sufficient reason to conclude that the Holy Spirit is also a person and a "personage."

[John317]

....Then, we read this passage that leads me (and many others) to believe that Ellen White supported the writings of the pioneers (back 50 years from 1905).

Originally Posted By: EGW

When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after-suppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time, God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time. We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. (Preach the Word, p. 5.; 1905)

Also in 1905 she wrote:

Originally Posted By: EGW

Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimonies of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority. (10MR 45)

The "Fundamental Principles" were published in 1872 and were non-Trinitarian in nature.

The major problem with your argument is the fact that Ellen White never does say that one of "the waymarks" making us what we are is the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian positions of the Pioneers.

Where does Ellen White ever say God has testified that the Trinity doctrine as the modern SDA church believes it is wrong?

Your argument does not even deal with the fact that our Pioneers were not united on a particular view of the Godhead. Our church in those days included Trinitarians in the ministry as well as among the laity. Furthermore, if the view of the Trinity was considered a "waymark," James White certainly wouldn't have written in the RH that the Trinity doctrine shouldn't be a test of any kind.

Another thing your argument does not deal with is the fact that between 1888 and 1900, Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian. In 1913, when the editor of the church's primary paper published an article in which he stated that the SDA church believes in the Trinity, Ellen White said nothing in opposition to it. In fact, Ellen White chose this same editor to be on the Ellen G. White Estate, a decision she wouldn't have made if she didn't have confidence in his character and judgment.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

The major problem with your argument is the fact that Ellen White never does say that one of "the waymarks" making us what we are is the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian positions of the Pioneers.

[...]

Another thing your argument does not deal with is the fact that between 1888 and 1900, Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian. In 1913, when the editor of the church's primary paper published an article in which he stated that the SDA church believes in the Trinity, Ellen White said nothing in opposition to it. In fact, Ellen White chose this same editor to be on the Ellen G. White Estate, a decision she wouldn't have made if she didn't have confidence in his character and judgment.

[miz3]

Trinitarian vs nontrinitarian.

The Bible clearly establishes that God is God. That God sent Jesus Christ into the world and that Jesus Christ is God! The Bible does NOT ask us to figure it out. It states this as a FACT! No discussion necessary!

Here is what the Gospels say about the Holy Spirit.

"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 1:18.

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus Christ! That is not trivial! The Holy Spirit is therefore NOT TRIVIAL!

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:32.

Notice that sin against Jesus Christ will be forgiven, however just speaking against the Holy Spirit will NOT BE FORGIVEN!

I think that clearly and unambiguously puts the Holy Spirit in a category of its own! Again, this is NOT TRIVIAL!

"Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit."

Mark 13:11.

Again, NOT TRIVIAL! Without the Holy Spirit we humans are unable to speak Truth!

"Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,"

Luke 4:1.

How about that! The Holy Spirit orders Jesus Christ (God) to do something. NOT TRIVIAL! In fact it is astounding!

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 14:26.

The Father will order the Holy Spirit to teach humans all things. That means the Holy Spirit knows what God knows! Only God knows everything! Again, NOT TRIVIAL!

"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

John 16:5-15

Notice how these three Entities command each other. NOT TRIVIAL!

Whether the Holy Spirit is the Third Member of the Godhead or not no one knows. In fact, we humans know very little about the Godhead and HOW the Godhead works. We do know however, that God the Father is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, that God Jesus Christ is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, the Holy Spirit is NOT TRIVIAL.

As such it IS TRIVIAL as to whether you are Trinitarian or nonTrinitarian. Such labels do not matter.

What does matter is that the FATHER, JESUS CHRIST, and THE HOLY SPIRIT-------ARE NOT TRIVIAL! We must therefore view and speak of all THREE with the greatest of respect, greatest reverence, and the greatest of care!

THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES AND COMMANDS!

As to Ellen White it is abundantly clear that her knowledge on the subject was one of learning just like the other humans of her day. It is also clear that she received no special messages from God that would clear up her confusion and the confusion of the pioneers on this issue. It is obvious that Ellen White is not an expert on this issue. She shares the same confusion as did everyone else of her day on this issue.

Apparently God thought the Bible was sufficient knowledge for them to know on the subject. Thus God gave us no further Light through Ellen White on this subject.

Thus, any discussion on this subject in regard to Ellen White will only be confusion. Your discussion on this thread bears witness to the fact that I am right in saying this.

Also, the fact that one of you claims to be a "prophet" who receives direct messages from God to engage in this unseemly discussion is frankly revolting and shameful. You are clearly not knowledgeable about the subject you are talking about!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

The major problem with your argument is the fact that Ellen White never does say that one of "the waymarks" making us what we are is the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian positions of the Pioneers.

[...]

Another thing your argument does not deal with is the fact that between 1888 and 1900, Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian. In 1913, when the editor of the church's primary paper published an article in which he stated that the SDA church believes in the Trinity, Ellen White said nothing in opposition to it. In fact, Ellen White chose this same editor to be on the Ellen G. White Estate, a decision she wouldn't have made if she didn't have confidence in his character and judgment.

John,

I have trouble following or being convinced by apparent "double-speak." While you cannot allow me/us to argue from the point that the Holy Spirit was left out of so many germane Ellen White statements, you yourself use that same reasoning to point out "the major problem" with my argument (above).

Where's the "double-speak"?

Ellen White didn't know all truth all at once. She learned through her study of the Bible and through the dreams and visions God gave her. That is no secret.

But what's important is that Ellen White didn't write her private opinions and therefore she never had to go back to her writings in order to change them and make them conform to new truths which God was telling her.

So, in the case of the Holy Spirit, during the early years of the Advent Movement, Ellen White wasn't certain about the nature of the third person of the Godhead. Therefore in those early writings we don't find very much about the Holy Spirit. Yet from 1888 to 1910, she wrote a great deal-- and in greater detail-- about the Holy Spirit.

What I am saying, then, is that, in light of what Ellen White wrote in the 1890s and early twentieth century about the Holy Spirit, it is a mistake to conclude that the omission of the Holy Spirit in some of her earlier statements means that the Holy Spirit wasn't in existence or active. We have to take everything she said about a topic in order to get the full truth about it, just as in the Bible.

Some people take the fact that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned by name in John 1: 1 to mean that there was no Holy Spirit at that point. Such reasoning is foolish, however, since the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy both tell us that the Holy Spirit took an active part in the creation as well as in the planning of man's salvation.

Similarly, it would be foolish to take the fact that Christ is not mentioned by name in the book of Genesis to mean that the pre-existent Christ didn't exist at that time. Moses, like Ellen White, also didn't know all truth at once. Revelation of truth is progressive. We need to remember this when studying Ellen White's writings.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

The major problem with your argument is the fact that Ellen White never does say that one of "the waymarks" making us what we are is the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian positions of the Pioneers.

[...]

Another thing your argument does not deal with is the fact that between 1888 and 1900, Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian. In 1913, when the editor of the church's primary paper published an article in which he stated that the SDA church believes in the Trinity, Ellen White said nothing in opposition to it. In fact, Ellen White chose this same editor to be on the Ellen G. White Estate, a decision she wouldn't have made if she didn't have confidence in his character and judgment.

I am amazed at the phrase "Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian." At what point in this decade of migration of thinking does a person leave one belief and embrace the other? It would be dishonest for a "prophet" to remain in a state of "confusion" about such a critical subject as "the personality of God" and then write progressively and increasingly Trinitarianly until the prophet finally (after this decade of increasing light) settled on a solid foundation belief.

It wasn't over a "decade." If you study what she said about the Godhead between 1844 and 1910, you will see a great deal of change. I'm not talking about contraditions but of progressive revelation of truth, just as we find in the Bible. There are no contraditions between what Moses wrote and the Gospels, yet everyone will admit that truth is more clearly taught in the later writings. The same applies to the writings of Ellen White in regard to the Godhead. If we properly understand God's way of revealing truth, we shouldn't be amazed that Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian.

It is no more dishonest for Ellen White to write only what God revealed to her than it was for Moses or John the Beloved to do it. The fact that a prophet of God writes only what God reveals doesn't make them dishonest. On the contrary, the dishonesty would be to write things which God had not shown her to be true.

You refer to this as "a critical subject," but you have to understand that Ellen White didn't see it that way. The critical subjects were the Second Coming, the Bible as the Word of God, the Three Angels Messages, the Sabbath, the heavenly sanctuary, the Health Message, and the non-immortality of the wicked. It was "critical" to keep the church united on those truly critical subjects around which the church was organized. Our church wasn't organized around a particular understanding of the Trinity or the Godhead, other than the fact that God is personal and that Christ is the Son of God. You seem to forget or ignore that James White didn't write very much about the Trinity. Instead, he said that it was not to be a test. If it was such a "critical subject" as you say, James and Ellen White would have made the Godhead and the Trinity doctrine a test. But significantly, they didn't.

[John317]

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus Christ! That is not trivial! The Holy Spirit is therefore NOT TRIVIAL!

.....I think that clearly and unambiguously puts the Holy Spirit in a category of its own! Again, this is NOT TRIVIAL!

...Again, NOT TRIVIAL! Without the Holy Spirit we humans are unable to speak Truth!

.....How about that! The Holy Spirit orders Jesus Christ (God) to do something. NOT TRIVIAL! In fact it is astounding!

.....That means the Holy Spirit knows what God knows! Only God knows everything! Again, NOT TRIVIAL!

.....Notice how these three Entities command each other. NOT TRIVIAL!

.... We do know however, that God the Father is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, that God Jesus Christ is NOT TRIVIAL. We do know however, the Holy Spirit is NOT TRIVIAL.

....What does matter is that the FATHER, JESUS CHRIST, and THE HOLY SPIRIT-------ARE NOT TRIVIAL! We must therefore view and speak of all THREE with the greatest of respect, greatest reverence, and the greatest of care!

Yes, I agree. The Holy Spirit is not trvial. I hope you don't think I've said anything different.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

What I am saying, then, is that, in light of what Ellen White wrote in the 1890s and early twentieth century about the Holy Spirit, it is a mistake to conclude that the omission of the Holy Spirit in some of her earlier statements means that the Holy Spirit wasn't in existence or active. We have to take everything she said about a topic in order to get the full truth about it, just as in the Bible.

[...]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

The major problem with your argument is the fact that Ellen White never does say that one of "the waymarks" making us what we are is the non-Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian positions of the Pioneers.

[...]

Another thing your argument does not deal with is the fact that between 1888 and 1900, Ellen White's views were increasingly becoming more and more Trinitarian. In 1913, when the editor of the church's primary paper published an article in which he stated that the SDA church believes in the Trinity, Ellen White said nothing in opposition to it. In fact, Ellen White chose this same editor to be on the Ellen G. White Estate, a decision she wouldn't have made if she didn't have confidence in his character and judgment.

....Writing to Kellogg (1903):

Originally Posted By: EGW

You are not definitely clear on the personality of God, which is everything to us as a people. You have virtually destroyed the Lord God Himself. (Letter 300, 1903)

The first conclusion from this 1903 statement is that Ellen White WAS "defintiely clear on the personality of God in 1903." If Ellen White was so adamantly against the impersonal God that Kellogg was proposing (and that, based upon Ellen White's writings erroneously), it is intuitive that she would have made some definite statement on her corrected view of the "personality of God" prior to her death -- especially, since the "personality of God...is everything to us as a people." No such revelation of an increased or enhanced perception of the "personality of God" was ever mentioned by her.

Notice the date of this startment: 1903. By 1903, she had changed a great deal in comparison with the views she held on the Godhead from 1844 to 1875 or even 1880.

Also compare her statements with those of James White. Have you done this?

It's important to compare all her statements about the personality of God and the Godhead, reading them in the order in which they were written. You will most certainly see a clear progression.

By the way, you will see the same progression in the area of the health message and the doctrine of justification by faith. It ought not to surprise anyone if they understand Ellen White and nature of Inspiration.

[John317]

Where's the contradictions in Ellen White's statements? I see no evidence in those two quotes that she misunderstood what the angels said.

[John317]

...

Let us say (just for this post) you have some ground to believe EGW had a "mutation of thought and understanding" from non-Trinitarian to Trinitarian theology.

I would not call it "mutation."

Do you think that Paul never learned anything after the experience he had on the road to Damascus? Did Paul suddenly know everything? Of course not. So why do you assume (or seem to assume) that Ellen White never changed her viewpoint or underwent a change? She certainly underwent a change in regards to the health message, did she not? (Again, I'm not suggesting that she contradicted herself. But as with the case of the Trinity, she only wrote on health the things that God gave her to write. This is why her early writings harmonize so well with her later writings.)

So I don't see why you seem to be having a difficult time dealing with the issue of the Godhead and the Trinity.

She never did teach against anything that she later supported, did she? Did she speak against the Trinity doctrine per se (as her husband did)? Or did she fight against false views that some people held about the Trinity? (I mean particularly the spiritualized views of J.H. Kellogg and others at the beginning of the twentieth century and some similar views in the 1840s.) I believe you will find that Ellen White never fought against any doctrines that the modern SDA church believes and teaches in regard to the Trinity.

If you beleive she did, please post her quote together with the quote from church doctrines that you believe she fought against.

[miz3]

Yes, I agree. The Holy Spirit is not trvial. I hope you don't think I've said anything different.

I was not directing my words at you John. They were directed in another direction.

[John317]

Whew. :-)

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

It's important to compare all her statements about the personality of God and the Godhead, reading them in the order in which they were written. You will most certainly see a clear progression.

John,

You ONLY "see" a "clear progression" if you are looking for it. Eve "saw that the tree was good for food." When you are adamant about a subject, you cannot see the other side as easily. You and I may share the same deficiency to a degree.

I was raised Baptist and accepted the faith of the SDA Church in 1974 which was already Trinitarian. I had never studied the nature of God, and did not pay it any mind until about 25 years ago. I went to Andrews University (James White Library) and spent the summer researching there. I looked at every statement Ellen White ever wrote about the Holy Spirit and the Godhead. I conferred with the staff in the E. G. White Estate section. I think Bro. Moon was working then.

At that time, I came away from my research with the attitude that Trinity/non-Trinity should not be a test of fellowship, but by that time, the SDA Church had incorporated the "27 fundamentals" to the degree that they were being used as "a test."

I took basically the same view that was espoused by W. C. White in the 1935 letter that I previously posted -- "silence is golden."

Following my studies at Andrews, the CSDA Church was organized. There was no mention of a test regarding the nature of God. We did not have a formal list of beliefs published. As I have continued to study and have been exposed to thousands of voices around the world teaching on the topic of the Godhead, I have become adamantly non-Trinitarian. I cannot find the Trinity in the Bible, and I see little evidence to suggest it in the writings of Ellen White.

To my knowledge, there is not any test regarding the nature of God for membership in the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church where I am enrolled. We have never had a "debate" within our church on this topic -- perhaps because the leaders are, for the most part, non-Trinitarian. We do have a modern gift of prophecy within our ranks, and the Spirit teaches us that the "three in one"/"co-equal"/"co-eternal" rational persons of the Godhead doctrine is false. Our major rift is regarding the Holy Spirit (as you have noticed already).

BTW: I was surprised to read a webpage posted by Dr. Lorraine Day, M. D. where she was advocating the non-Trinitarian view. I have always admired her for taking a strong stand against conventional medicine after her conversion to the natural way.

[John317]

...Now, a statement Mrs. White made AFTER she was supposedly in the final stage of her "Trinitarian migration," goes like this.

Originally Posted By: EGW

The great gift of salvation has been placed within our reach at an infinite cost to the Father and the Son. [but not the Holy Spirit] To neglect salvation is to neglect the knowledge of the Father, and of the Son, [but not the Holy Spirit] whom God hath sent in order that man might become a partaker of the divine nature, and thus, with Christ, an heir of all things. (RH 11-21-12) [brackets supplied]

This is a perfect example of making wrong assumptions. Just because Ellen White doesn't mention the Holy Spirit every time she mentions the Father and the Son doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit was absent or non-existent.

That would be like assuming that since John doesn't mention the Holy Spirit by name in John 1: 1, there must not have been a Holy Spirit at that point.

Doesn't the Bible teach us that the Holy Spirit has feelings which can be hurt? Ellen White says so, too.

The Godhead actually has one mind, which is why when one suffers (such as Christ), they all suffer. That is why there's a very real sense in which God the Father suffered at the cross with His Son. And Ellen White says this.

Review what it says about the Godhead in the book, Counsels On Health, page 222. It is very clear there that the Holy Spirit felt pity for the human race and was involved in making the plan of redemption.

Our knowledge of the Holy Spirit is not as important as our knowledge of the Father and of Jesus Christ. That is becasue the Holy Spirit doesn't manifest Himself but He comes to manifest the Father and the Son. Not knowing who the Holy Spirit is is not as critical as not knowing who Christ is.

I don't believe it is necessary for our salvation to have a correct knowledge and understanding of the Holy Spirit in all the details. That's why Ellen and James could see this topic differently and yet both be accepted in the Lord as Christians. It is also why I believe that the Lord will not keep our Pioneers out of heaven because of their errors in regard to the Trinity. Many of us will need to take classes from the Lord in heaven. I'm looking forward to them.

[Pastor_Chick]

Here is an example of a non-Trinitarian statement in 1898 which is when Ellen White is supposedly almost "up-to-speed" in terms of the Trinity doctrine.

"Every one that is of the truth," he said, "heareth my voice." He was the embodiment of truth and holiness. He who had stood in the councils of God, who had dwelt in the innermost sanctuary of the Eternal, was speaking that whereof he knew. He was presenting truth of the highest order, revealing to men the mind of the Infinite. But the men who claimed to stand high in knowledge and spiritual understanding failed to comprehend his meaning; and that which had been evolved from eternity by the Father and Son, they in their ignorance stood as critics to condemn.(YI 09-22-98)

[John317]

We do have a modern gift of prophecy within our ranks, and the Spirit teaches us that the "three in one"/"co-equal"/"co-eternal" rational persons of the Godhead doctrine is false. Our major rift is regarding the Holy Spirit (as you have noticed already).

Could you say more about this? Do you mean there is someone you believe to be inspired by the Spirit of prophecy in the same way as the Bible prophets and Ellen G. White?

You say that the Spirit of prophecyh is teaching you that the "'three in one'/'co-equal'/'co-eternal' rational persons of the Godhead doctrine si false."

It sounds like this gift of prophecy is teaching contrary to the statements that Ellen White wrote.

Can you share with us the name of this prophet you refer to? Have they written or posted anything?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

It's important to compare all her statements about the personality of God and the Godhead, reading them in the order in which they were written. You will most certainly see a clear progression.

John,

You ONLY "see" a "clear progression" if you are looking for it.

Is there progession of truth in the Bible?

Are you claiming that Ellen White wrote the same about the Godhead in 1844-1855 as she did in 1895 to 1906?

You'll notice that all of the clearest statements written by Ellen White and included in Ev. 614-617 were written after 1894. I don't believe it is any coincidence that she wrote all of her clearest statements about the Godhead and the "heavenly trio" AFTER the death of her husband, who was clearly non-Trinitarian. She makes many, many statements that James White would never have said or believed before his death in 1881. Yet the fact is that James White was also undergoing changes in his thinking about the Godhead at the time of his death. He was about 10 years behind his wife with respect to the Godhead. He was making process but it was slow. The Lord only leads us only as fast as we can accept the truth and put it into practice in our lives.

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

We do have a modern gift of prophecy within our ranks, and the Spirit teaches us that the "three in one"/"co-equal"/"co-eternal" rational persons of the Godhead doctrine is false. Our major rift is regarding the Holy Spirit (as you have noticed already).

Could you say more about this? Do you mean there is someone you believe to be inspired by the Spirit of prophecy in the same way as the Bible prophets and Ellen G. White?

You say that the Spirit of prophecy is teaching you that the "'three in one'/'co-equal'/'co-eternal' rational persons of the Godhead doctrine [is] false."

It sounds like this gift of prophecy is teaching contrary to the statements that Ellen White wrote.

Can you share with us the name of this prophet you refer to? Have they written or posted anything?

John,

If we cannot come to grasp the teaching of EGW in the same manner on the Godhead and the principles regarding the SDA trademark, how could you possibly take an interest in another inspired voice?

Now, if you seriously want to delve into this, I might suggest the opening of a thread for discussion on the "Issues" forum that Stan has set aside for such topics regarding CSDA. I can assure you, any further interaction on this matter here will completely derail the thread.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: EGW

The great gift of salvation has been placed within our reach at an infinite cost to the Father and the Son. [but not the Holy Spirit] To neglect salvation is to neglect the knowledge of the Father, and of the Son, [but not the Holy Spirit] whom God hath sent in order that man might become a partaker of the divine nature, and thus, with Christ, an heir of all things. (RH 11-21-12) [brackets supplied]

Those who espouse a "Trinitarian gospel" do not yet know the first stitch of God's love. Unity, equality, and unconditional love are borne by the "true God and Jesus Christ, whom [He] hast sent." If the Holy Spirit were a "rational member of the Godhead" separately from the Father and the Son, [HE] would possess a "good name" and a Throne. That is the true character of God Almighty.

But, the truth is plainly set forth without error or "Trinitarian migration."

"[Christ] would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent." (1895) "There is no comforter like Christ, so tender and so true. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. His Spirit speaks to the heart.… The influence of the Holy Spirit is the life of Christ in the soul.” (RH, 10-26-97)

“By the power of His love, through obedience, fallen man, a worm of the dust, is to be transformed, fitted to be a member of the heavenly family, a companion through eternal ages of God and Christ and the holy angels." (Ms. 21,1900) [Please note the year and the fact that a "rational Holy Spirit being" is NOT part of the "heavenly family."

"The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.” (YI 07-07-98)

Those are some pretty powerful quotes, eh John?