Administrators Naomi Posted June 10, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Stan Right from the first news of this there seems to be a lot of people rejoicing. Something is wrong there. I really do not see it as being wrong to state some of the facts. To share all the juicy gossip? REALLY???? As I said before.. if you want to detail his fail, details yours first. I see one therapist trying to get their name in lights over this. There remains two kinds of sinners, 1 - Ones that have been caught 2 - Ones that have not been caught. Any non-consensual sex needs to be reported to the police. /2 Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted June 10, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'm always a bit cautious about jumping in with an opinion on criminal issues without a trial. If true it is tragic. Stan is right. There appears to be a whole lotta rejoicing going on (from some here). And the "name in lights" thing seems to be correct too. How many people will want to go to her in the future? Whatever happened to the Old Fashioned theory of gathering ALL of the facts and allowing due process? Are we so bored that we have to crucify another person, church leaders, etc to entertain ourselves? Or, does it make us feel better about the plank in our eyes? Or, is it just easy to trash others while hiding behind a computer screen, often without using our real identity? Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2012 I certainly agree that the posting of the salacious details is wrong and unnecessary. There is the wider issue, however, of how churches (not just the SDA church) deal with persons in authority who err in this way. Pastors, Churches and conference leaders are often ill equipped to recognize the particular patterns of behavior that Pipim's case illustrates. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted June 10, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 10, 2012 I certainly agree that the posting of the salacious details is wrong and unnecessary. There is the wider issue, however, of how churches (not just the SDA church) deal with persons in authority who err in this way. Pastors, Churches and conference leaders are often ill equipped to recognize the particular patterns of behavior that Pipim's case illustrates. A question: If you agree that the posting of the salacious details is wrong and unnecessary. Do you agree that using a person's name and details justify "the wider issue"? Does the end justify the means? Quote: who err in this way how much has actually been proven that there has been err in this case? Unless it has been proven without a doubt, please don't bother with the gossipy details.Even in your agreement you still find it necessary to refer to the wider issue as that of this man's case ... calling out by name? Mixed signals, wouldn't you say? Could it be possible that there be a more productive method of equipping leaders to deal with this type of behavior? Or, while we are at it ... equipping everyone on how to recognize the particular patterns of behavior? Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Agree with lazarus, Stan et al. - details & gossip serve little purpose here. But as Stan said, it's not wrong to state some facts. And of course, it's necessary. Otherwise criminal (and unChristian, immoral, Un Biblical) assaults will continued unchecked in the Church. Think of your wife, son or daughter. Adventism has already covered up sins of this nature e.g. Morris Venden/Claudia Burrows, Keene Texas, 1986. Burrows sought Conference backup but her claims were buried. Abandoned by leadership, she published her story with phone records to prove she was not a liar. The Roman Catholic Church has 'dealt with this issue' for hundreds of years - by moving offending priests to another diocese. (One can google their 1962 policy paper Crimens Sollicitacionis - Crimes of Solicitation.) In many ways it's a blueprint for modern Risk Management. Hush it up, minimize responsibility, pressure/intimidate the victim. Yes criminal matters should be reported to police. But what does this mean for a far-flung jurisdiction in Africa? Raping and killing Africans has long been accepted practice for Western powers. It's not likely the U.S. would honor an extradition request for Pipim to face charges in Botswana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 to recognize the particular patterns of behavior that Pipim's case illustrates. Unchaperoned encounters should not be an accepted practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 There remains two kinds of sinners, 1 - Ones that have been caught 2 - Ones that have not been caught. I'll submit a third Stan. 3 - Those who come forward & confess without being caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: lazarus to recognize the particular patterns of behavior that Pipim's case illustrates. Unchaperoned encounters should not be an accepted practice. A-men! It shouldn't even be an option. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Stan There remains two kinds of sinners, 1 - Ones that have been caught 2 - Ones that have not been caught. I'll submit a third Stan. 3 - Those who come forward & confess without being caught. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: olger I'm always a bit cautious about jumping in with an opinion on criminal issues without a trial. If true it is tragic. Stan is right. There appears to be a whole lotta rejoicing going on (from some here). And the "name in lights" thing seems to be correct too. How many people will want to go to her in the future? Whatever happened to the Old Fashioned theory of gathering ALL of the facts and allowing due process? Are we so bored that we have to crucify another person, church leaders, etc to entertain ourselves? Or, does it make us feel better about the plank in our eyes? Or, is it just easy to trash others while hiding behind a computer screen, often without using our real identity? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 It shouldn't even be an option. Indeed OG, it would have a strong influence in the ranks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted June 10, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 10, 2012 Unchaperoned encounters should not be an accepted practice. Amen & Amen Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: olger I'm always a bit cautious about jumping in with an opinion on criminal issues without a trial. If true it is tragic. Stan is right. There appears to be a whole lotta rejoicing going on (from some here). And the "name in lights" thing seems to be correct too. How many people will want to go to her in the future? Whatever happened to the Old Fashioned theory of gathering ALL of the facts and allowing due process? Are we so bored that we have to crucify another person, church leaders, etc to entertain ourselves? Or, does it make us feel better about the plank in our eyes? Or, is it just easy to trash others while hiding behind a computer screen, often without using our real identity? Exactly. There are two peoples in responsibility who need to see the facts: Legal authorities and the church authorties who have a responsible for his employment. That is it. The rest of us can butt out. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 How about recognizing this particular pattern of gossip? Do we really recognize what is going on here and the destructiveness of gossip? When will we put procedures in place to stop this destructive behavior. Whoops - we do have it. Matt. 18 ( The most rejected scripture in the Bible.) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 Right from the first news of this there seems to be a lot of people rejoicing. Something is wrong there. I really do not see it as being wrong to state some of the facts. To share all the juicy gossip? REALLY???? As I said before.. if you want to detail his fail, details yours first. I see one therapist trying to get their name in lights over this. There remains two kinds of sinners, 1 - Ones that have been caught 2 - Ones that have not been caught. Any non-consensual sex needs to be reported to the police. My thoughts exactly Stan. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 10, 2012 Members Share Posted June 10, 2012 How about recognizing this particular pattern of gossip? Do we really recognize what is going on here and the destructiveness of gossip? When will we put procedures in place to stop this destructive behavior. Whoops - we do have it. Matt. 18 ( The most rejected scripture in the Bible.) and the only one to mention Matthew 18 was Brother Pipim in his letter. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 10, 2012 A question: If you agree that the posting of the salacious details is wrong and unnecessary. Do you agree that using a person's name and details justify "the wider issue"? Does the end justify the means? I don't know how the details became public. I haven't spent that much time on it. It seems that Pipim had his version and I guess there were those who circulated their own. I think all details like that should be kept private. Quote: how much has actually been proven that there has been err in this case? Unless it has been proven without a doubt, please don't bother with the gossipy details. Pipim has admitted that he erred. He recently admitted to another moral fall. It is clear that he erred. It's unfortunate that this thread is titled as it is. Pipim has not helped himself since he is so quickly seeking to return to public ministry. Quote: Could it be possible that there be a more productive method of equipping leaders to deal with this type of behavior? Or, while we are at it ... equipping everyone on how to recognize the particular patterns of behavior? Large bureaucracies often make changes in the face of a perceived crisis. In the absence of a perceived crisis they think things are working fine. Nothing changes. My guess is that Gallimore, the pastor of Ann Arbour and others are taking another look at how these things are processed. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Good points laz, Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Originally Posted By: lazarus to recognize the particular patterns of behavior that Pipim's case illustrates. Unchaperoned encounters should not be an accepted practice. Right! A hotel room is not the proper place for unsupervised spiritual counselling of female students by a male pastor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Whoops - we do have it. Matt. 18 ( The most rejected scripture in the Bible.) Matt. 18 shows that there is a time for the church to intervene. Confesion must precede rebaptism. Pipim did not make full confession until he was comfronted with the second female case, which prompted the cancellation of the baptism. We don't make things right by pushing the dirt under the rug. There are lessons to be learned from this case. God inspired Bible writers to record King David's sin for posterity. Are we suggesting that we should sanitize the Bible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Quote: Confesion must precede rebaptism. .... Are we suggesting that we should sanitize the Bible? Can you provide us with a quote from scriptures that tell us about bring "rebaptized". I am not sure one can sanitize the Bible if the belief you espouse is not in there. :) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Quote: Confesion must precede rebaptism. .... Are we suggesting that we should sanitize the Bible? Can you provide us with a quote from scriptures that tell us about bring "rebaptized". I am not sure one can sanitize the Bible if the belief you espouse is not in there. Years ago; I was rebaptized. I checked it out carefully with my Pastor at the time to ensure it was scriptural; and it is, but I can't remember right now which text/s it was. I will do some digging to uncover it. I do remember that the example I set of being a church leader at the time, and publicly admitting like this that I was on a wrong path caused a lot of other baptisms in the church over the next three months or so. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have no doubt that what you did served a good cause. But I do not believe there is biblical precedent for the way we use it now. The only example of re-baptism in scripture that I am aware of is if the baptism was not performed in the correct manner - such as infant baptism or baptism where the individual was not baptized in the name of all three members of the Godhead. That being said - I am open to re-baptism. I am not sure there needs to be Biblical precedent. But I think we need to look at this tradition in our church - much more carefully. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have no doubt that what you did served a good cause. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It's unfortunate that this thread is titled as it is. Pipim has not helped himself since he is so quickly seeking to return to public ministry. What's "wrong" with the title of this thread? I don't get that. You stated concern about returning to public ministry "so quickly." How long would be long enough? And why? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.