Revisit The Book of Daniel with a Heretical Baptist

[Stan]

Mark has a good text

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath.

http://bible.cc/mark/2-27.htm

MY personal belief, (and not sure I can back this up,) is that the Sabbath was not invented on planet earth, but has always been, it is clear that it will be celebrated in Heaven and the New Earth. (that can be backed up easy)

If those two statements are correct, than one has to wonder why the gap of not keeping it.

[Overaged]

"A moon-struck honeymooner," eh?

[BobRyan]

Mark has a good text

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath.

There is no such text - but it would be great if such a one had existed. At least for those who think that marriage was made just for Jews and that Sabbath was made for the two Jews in Eden.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob:

(and others convinced Sabbath keeping is a commandment of God for all mankind)

First of all, please do not to be offended by me and others who disagree with Adventist theology or your belief systems,

[phkrause]

Mark has a good text

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath.

http://bible.cc/mark/2-27.htm

MY personal belief, (and not sure I can back this up,) is that the Sabbath was not invented on planet earth, but has always been, it is clear that it will be celebrated in Heaven and the New Earth. (that can be backed up easy)

If those two statements are correct, than one has to wonder why the gap of not keeping it.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Mark has a good text

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath.

There is no such text - but it would be great if such a one had existed. At least for those who think that marriage was made just for Jews and that Sabbath was made for the two Jews in Eden.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob I think that Stan was just trying to show that point that the text doesn't say just for Jews. But you probably knew that. :)

[Tom Wetmore]

...But disagreement per se is not opposition...

Words to live by. Words worth framing.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Teresaq posted

"Yes, Jawge, we have been guilty of that. I believe many have worked on it, one or another. I think you agree.

"But perhaps it is I who misunderstood what you said, and what you meant.

"You stated that your opposition to SDAs was regarding how you were treated based on the attitudes at that time, for not being what they thought you should be. Did I read you wrong? Clarification would be appreciated. "

George said: "... And I really do not recall 'opposition against SDAs'. My opposition was to the then very prevalent and usually unloving sanctimonious attitude that I was lost and bound for the fiery pit whether Baptist or Atheist."

Oh, my! Clarification? About a mixed marriage? What a time that was. Picture me, a very devout Baptist, dating an Adventist girl. For me, it had been love at first sound (Annette and I met over the telephone when she called, asking to speak with a girl cousin. Oh, that soft Hill section drawl!)

Annette was a good friend of my cousin, making it easy to arrange group dating. She was on Christmas vacation 1958 in Augusta from Mount Pisgah Academy, and I from the University of Georgia, junior year. We experienced two weeks of magic and enchantment. (Yeah, I know. Magic and enchantment are anathema to Adventist authorities. But she literally bewitched me. Naughty girl. Bad girl.)

After returning to our mutual schools, we wrote each other constantly. There were even episodic telephone calls that I had a hard time explaining to my mother. Our spring breaks did not match, but I visited her parents daily. Her mother and father rapidly became my close friends. Very briefly and only once, her mother tactfully informed me that I was in danger of the fiery lake without converting to Adventism. On a beautiful weekend during that spring break, they drove me to see Annette at Mount Pisgah Academy, where we played in the woods surrounding her school.

Her mother was to became a dream mother-in-law, and from that point in the spring of 1959 we tacitly agreed not to discuss religion. Her father could not care less about religion, and in fact was a closet atheist. He converted on his death bed in our home six years ago, at age 88.

Annette and I were constant companions when we returned home in the Summer of 1959. I attended church with her and met many Adventists. Unfortunately, religious dissonance raised its ugly head. I learned that demons do indeed exist. They look just like people. In mean spirited ways, family friends discouraged our relationship, which they took for a threat to her spiritual welfare. Her mother was terrified about one of her close friend's gossiping.

For us, impetuous youth, religion was not a topic. We planned to elope, which would probably have ended my hopes for medical school. Her parents found out, and they would have nothing but a church wedding, one of the many reasons I have always loved those two. But when petitioning for a wedding in the local Adventist Church, the pastor would have nothing to do with it. He would not even speak to me about our planned marriage or anything. However, the Baptist pastor who baptized me was delighted to accept our petition for a double wedding, to include my sister and her fiance, a soldier. My sister's marriage lasted until her husband's premature death at age 44. He was a member of The Church of the Nazarene.

Annette was literally shunned by many of her family and family friends. I was bewildered by such behavior. Many who did coolly accept us as a couple always made it a point to tell me that as a non-Adventist, I was doomed. Annette's mother was frequently told that our marriage would not last.

Through many dynamics, time has effected healing. Some of the worst opponents of our marriage have died, moved away, become cool to active church participation or even themselves divorced. The general attitude of the Adventist Church towards other denominations has moderated considerably, although many Adventists decry that as Babylonism. The personal feelings of many towards us have moderated, and there have even been reconciliations.

Of course, some of my old bitterness persisted. Annette sensed that, and when she discovered Club Adventist, she felt that if I participated on the forum,it would help to dissipate any of my residual ill-will. Long ago, I found out that when I don't listen to my wife, trouble brews. And not from her.

Many thanks to those of you who have tolerated my ultra personal approach to posting. But from the start that approach seemed natural for my mission on the forum, which is basically to better understand Adventists, the Adventist Church, and even myself. I sense that Annette's and my history will help you become better, more loving Christians.

More about a Baptist Heretic's views on The Book of Daniel soon.

Agape

[teresaq]

I know of many such stories, I am sad to say. But not just in the SDA. Apparently that was the mentality of many in those days. Unspiritual religiosity. It still persists in some of us but we do not recognize it. I have seen 2 decent people leave the forum for not being "kosher". Or we go overboard the other way. Ahhh, the unconverted heart!

I still disagree with your reasoning re Daniel.

Teresaq posted

"Yes, Jawge, we have been guilty of that. I believe many have worked on it, one or another. I think you agree.

"But perhaps it is I who misunderstood what you said, and what you meant.

"You stated that your opposition to SDAs was regarding how you were treated based on the attitudes at that time, for not being what they thought you should be. Did I read you wrong? Clarification would be appreciated. "

George said: "... And I really do not recall 'opposition against SDAs'. My opposition was to the then very prevalent and usually unloving sanctimonious attitude that I was lost and bound for the fiery pit whether Baptist or Atheist."

Annette was literally shunned by many of her family and family friends. I was bewildered by such behavior. Many who did coolly accept us as a couple always made it a point to tell me that as a non-Adventist, I was doomed. Annette's mother was frequently told that our marriage would not last.

[teresaq]

You made very good points in this post. I am going to address only 2. The personal comments and ad hominem attacks seem to be a part of our nature and until we see them as Jesus sees them, we will not be able to let go of them. They do not prove our position, and only make us look infantile...Jesus did not lie, we are blind and deceived.

As to your second point, you are right. There is no explicit command in the NT to keep the sabbath. Coincidentally I have a Baptist friend of decades with whom I have discussed various topics, but tried to share not preach. She brought up the subject of the sabbath one time ending with saying that she felt the presence of the Lord more on that day than Sunday.

While I was raised SDA I left the first chance I got in order to maintain my own personhood. Years later I first started keeping the Sabbath 'cause I was "supposed to". Then I felt a "Presence" on that day that I did not feel on any other day, not as strongly anyway. I didn't want the sun to go down! I tried to carry the experience over into the next day. I have been a devout believer in the Sabbath ever since! And it has not been based on any of our "canned" arguments which do not address individual concerns. One size does not fit all.

I don't need to make an Adventist out of you, nor get you to acknowledge and keep the Sabbath, but I would like to ask you to go to God and ask Him if there is anything to this Sabbath business and to show you what's in it for you. You might like it. But lest I continue to leave you no choice but to go in the opposite direction so as not to end up being a programmed "robot" I will leave off that subject.

As you have probably noted if you have paid any attention to my posts, I am also quite lacking in the Christian graces, so your prayers in that regard would be highly appreciated.

First of all, please do not to be offended by me and others who disagree with Adventist theology or your belief systems, with the exception of an ad hominem attack, meaning an irrelevant personal attack adding nothing to a discussion. I field ad hominem attacks by pointing them out as such, and noting that they are always irrelevant and unhelpful except to bolster the attacker's ego. As others have pointed out, knowing objections to our belief systems can only strengthen our faith when we are right.

...

Again, I repeat that an explicit mandate for gentile Sabbath keeping cannot be found in The Bible. So far, all objections to that statement do not show a requirement for gentile Sabbath keeping (except those living among Jews). They simply show Bible passages that refer to the Sabbath, or that use the topic of Sabbath to make a point about something else.

...

[John317]

I'd like to ask a question:

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Similarly, do we refrain from adultery because of laws or because of love for our spouse?

In view of all that the Bible says about the Sabbath, why do we need God to repeat the commandment in the NT in order for us to keep it?

I personally believe there's a very good reason that God did not repeat the Sabbath commandments in the NT. That reason has to do with freedom. God has made us free to obey or not to obey, and He doesn't want us to only obey Him on the basis of rules and threatenings.

There is plenty of evidence for the Sabbath unless we are looking for a way out. And God always leaves us room to wriggle out if we want to.

[phkrause]

I'd like to ask a question:

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Similarly, do we refrain from adultery because of laws or because of love for our spouse?

In view of all that the Bible says about the Sabbath, why do we need God to repeat the commandment in the NT in order for us to keep it?

I personally believe there's a very good reason that God did not repeat the Sabbath commandments in the NT. That reason has to do with freedom. God has made us free to obey or not to obey, and He doesn't want us to only obey Him on the basis of rules and threatenings.

There is plenty of evidence for the Sabbath unless we are looking for a way out. And God always leaves us room to wriggle out if we want to.

Excellent points John. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I believe one reason that Jesus didn't bother with the first 4 is because in most cases they didn't have a problem with those as we can see throughout the OT. Every time that they got in trouble was because they failed on the first 4 Commandments. It was the last six that they had a problem with. They were very legalistic to the first 4 but didn't give any thoughts to the last 6.

[Aliensanctuary]

Had Adam and Eve not rebelled against the LORD, and no one else after that, the whole world would still be keeping every seventh day holy. There would be work to do for six days, then a period set aside for rest. Of course, none of that worked out. The LORD raised up a people, Israel, whose mission was to extend its borders until the whole world loved and obeyed the Creator. Of course, none of that worked out either.

Our observance of a Sabbath today is only a pale shadow of the real Sabbath in the New World. When the Restored Kingdom of New Earth is established, those chosen to become perpetual members will work six days, then rest for one day. We won't even need to make choices on what or what not to do on the Day of Rest because the LORD's instructions, or laws for the Kingdom, will be permanently embedded within our minds.

We should do our best to obey the LORD in this life, rather than make excuses to avoid his simple requirements. During the Last Days, even the most devoted to the LORD will be severely tempted to switch their allegiance to the Great Deceiver. If we are wimps and cry-babies now, we will have little or no resistance to Satan's smooth deceptions. For many, loyalty to God and obeying his laws will not be important enough to have their heads cut off. Better to eat, drink, and be merry than to die for the LORD.

Perhaps in the Kingdom of God to come, only the descendents of Judah, the Jews, will be required to rest every seventh day. Everyone else will have to work continuously, day after day after day...with no time off...

Thank the LORD for the courage of Daniel, who faced death for his obedience to God, rather than compromise by looking for excuses to save his own skin. No religion could have saved him; only his love and undying loyalty to God.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Had Adam and Eve not rebelled against the LORD, and no one else after that, the whole world would still be keeping every seventh day holy. There would be work to do for six days, then a period set aside for rest. Of course, none of that worked out. The LORD raised up a people, Israel, whose mission was to extend its borders until the whole world loved and obeyed the Creator. Of course, none of that worked out either.

Our observance of a Sabbath today is only a pale shadow of the real Sabbath in the New World. When the Restored Kingdom of New Earth is established, those chosen to become perpetual members will work six days, then rest for one day. We won't even need to make choices on what or what not to do on the Day of Rest because the LORD's instructions, or laws for the Kingdom, will be permanently embedded within our minds.

We should do our best to obey the LORD in this life, rather than make excuses to avoid his simple requirements. During the Last Days, even the most devoted to the LORD will be severely tempted to switch their allegiance to the Great Deceiver. If we are wimps and cry-babies now, we will have little or no resistance to Satan's smooth deceptions. For many, loyalty to God and obeying his laws will not be important enough to have their heads cut off. Better to eat, drink, and be merry than to die for the LORD.

Perhaps in the Kingdom of God to come, only the descendents of Judah, the Jews, will be required to rest every seventh day. Everyone else will have to work continuously, day after day after day...with no time off...

Thank the LORD for the courage of Daniel, who faced death for his obedience to God, rather than compromise by looking for excuses to save his own skin. No religion could have saved him; only his love and undying loyalty to God.

Believe it or not, Overaged and others, I am working on my next installment on the Book of Daniel. I am also still working on my kiddie book. The publishing arm of Amazon.com is very gently and tactfully pressing me by e-Mail and telephone.

However, keeping of the Sabbath has obviously been a problem with me since my marriage to an Adventist angel. Not because of her. She is truly an Angel. But look again at this underlined portion of Aliensanctuary's post:

We should do our best to obey the LORD in this life, rather than make excuses to avoid his simple requirements.

The Lord's requirements for Christians are indeed simple. I have compassion for the Jews on account of their requirements. To repeat, truly ad nauseum,, no Adventist has yet shown by Scriptural passage that Christians are obligated to keep the Sabbath. Jesus said His yoke, his burden is light.

Thank you, teresaq, for your statement. I shall pray about the matter. You are now in my prayers of thanksgiving to God. One thing that nudges me some, since your last two posts, is the fact that my Christmas morning epiphany occurred --- you got it --- on the Sabbath. I DO wish God would visit me again in person. I have a buncha questions to ask.

Agape and God's blessings,

George Collier King,

husband of Emily ANNETTE nee Campbell

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "if you love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - those who say that the Lord's requirements are simple - have it right. It is right there in the Word of God.

Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

I am always blessed to recall that even Batpist icons like D.L. Moody clearly got this point from scripture.

In 1John 2 - John said

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Christ said in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father will enter"

And of course Paul hits the nail on the head in Romans 2 telling us that it is "NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL JUDGE the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

No wonder D.L.Moody could see this point so clearly even though he was not a Seventh-day Adventist.

Jesus said in the NEW Testament "The SABBATH was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- I think we can believe Himi "still".

Paul said in the NEW Testament that "our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31 rather an abolishing it. As Bible believing Christians I think we can choose to believe Paul on that point.

Paul said in the NEW Testament "there REMAINS Therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" - Heb 4.

Indeed -- that Sabbath rest REMAINS from the MAKING of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 when God said HE made the Sabbath "A holy day".

In Norway and Denmark and Sweden Saturday is "Lordag" -- the Lord's Day.

In all the Spanish speaking countries Saturday is "Sabbath" Sabbado

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Bob, when are you gonna realize that you still haven't Scripturally shown where the Sabbath is mandated for gentiles living apart from Jews?

On this topic, I shan't respond again. The Sabbath is off topic.

Agape

[John317]

In answer to your question, if the Gentiles are humans, then it is plain that God wants them to keep the Sabbath. Why would God give the Jews the gift of the Sabbath and keep it away from Gentiles? Does he love Jews more than the rest of us?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for mankind, and He ought to know since Jesus is the One who made it.

But now on to Daniel.

[Overaged]

Bob, when are you gonna realize that you still haven't Scripturally shown where the Sabbath is mandated for gentiles living apart from Jews?

On this topic, I shan't respond again. The Sabbath is off topic.

Agape

[Aliensanctuary]

I think, during the Last Days, the Kingdom of God will be explained clearly to us, including our responsibilities to obey God's laws, if we wish to join. Until then, one of the most important things we can do is to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. If we can reach the point where we are a blessing to everyone we come into contact with, as Jesus was, we are much closer to the Kingdom than any hardnosed, cold-hearted, joyless Sabbath keeper.

I'm thinking mainly of Jesus' dealings with the Hardline Keepers of Man-Made Rules and Regulations, aka, the Pharisees, who decided that carrying more than three figs or a sleeping bag was breaking the Sabbath. God's simple rules are designed to protect us, mainly from each other, and from disloyalty by following false gods.

On this side of the line, things may get a little fuzzy, like how to keep the Sabbath, but then, we will understand. We may never arrive at a correct understanding of the OT and NT prophecies of the Last Days, no matter how many years we discuss Dan and Rev, until that information is revealed to us. No two of us today believe exactly the same about the Kingdom of God, but someday we will all be in unity.

We are told to pray that we will be worthy to stand before the Son of Man with clear consciences. And so we must. To seek the Kingdom of God is wisdom, everything else is rubbish that will be consigned to the flames.

[Overaged]

I'm thinking mainly of Jesus' dealings with the Hardline Keepers of Man-Made Rules and Regulations, aka, the Pharisees, who decided that carrying more than three figs or a sleeping bag was breaking the Sabbath. God's simple rules are designed to protect us, mainly from each other, and from disloyalty by following false gods.

But they were not "Sabbath-keepers."

[John317]

I think, during the Last Days, the Kingdom of God will be explained clearly to us, including our responsibilities to obey God's laws, if we wish to join. Until then, one of the most important things we can do is to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did.

But aren't we living in the Last Day now?

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life.

[Overaged]

Quote:

But aren't we living in the Last Day now?

There is a difference between time of the end, and end of time.

Quote:

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life. [/quote']I did not read any hint of a third opportunity to be saved in AS's post. Where did you read this?

[John317]

There is a difference between time of the end, and end of time.

Yes, true. We are living at the time of the end right now. It is between 1798 and the return of Christ.

The "end of time" is when Christ returns and brings an end to time as we know it.

I wonder what "the Last Days" are to Aliensanctuary, though.

[John317]

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I did not read any hint of a third opportunity to be saved in AS's post. Where did you read this?

I believe he has talked about this in other posts before.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: John317

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I did not read any hint of a third opportunity to be saved in AS's post. Where did you read this?

I believe he has talked about this in other posts before.

In this topic?