Revisit The Book of Daniel with a Heretical Baptist

[John317]

No, he and I have talked a bit about his views on different discussions.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Bob, when are you gonna realize that you still haven't Scripturally shown where the Sabbath is mandated for gentiles living apart from Jews?

On this topic, I shan't respond again. The Sabbath is off topic.

Agape

Well that's no fair. You ask him a question, then say it's off topic and you won't reply again to it. That's an interesting approach.

Overaged, you are right, as usual (that is, when not posting about theological matters. )

My apologies, Bob. If participants are so concerned about a subject that they discuss it off topic, then it must be important. So the topic is open. All of my topics from now on are declared open. Have at it.

And obviously, the Sabbath is important to SDAs. Elementary.

However, something has happened to me. All residual ill-will I had for any Adventists dating from 50 and 40 years ago has evaporated. It has become apparent that they were as troubled and insecure as I then was. In airing my beliefs on Club Adventist, what others think no longer matters to me at all, unless they should pose some kind of physical threat. In 52 years, I have metamorphosed from a confused Evangelical Baptist fundamentalist to a professing atheist to a quasi-Baptist product that few Evangelicals would even recognize.

This is a very important point: some of you (and me too - mea culpa) show a seething anger embroiled with other negative feelings when presenting your core beliefs. We need to prayerfully work on such feelings. They are counter productive. If we cannot present our positions without an attitude of "I'm absolutely right, you're totally wrong, and if you don't change, you are headed for the Lake of Fire, and I'll be glad."

I do not even believe in the Lake of Fire as presented in Revelation. Revelation is allegorical, symbolic, and fraught with interpretive pitfalls. Revelation is the most stark example of Judeo-Christian apocalyptic literature in The Bible. Read it with caution. Another of my shocking heresies is a belief in universal salvation, even for non-Adventists and non-Baptists. Horrors!

God loves you.

I love this forum.

[JawgeFromJawja]

I'd like to ask a question:

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Similarly, do we refrain from adultery because of laws or because of love for our spouse?

In view of all that the Bible says about the Sabbath, why do we need God to repeat the commandment in the NT in order for us to keep it?

I personally believe there's a very good reason that God did not repeat the Sabbath commandments in the NT. That reason has to do with freedom. God has made us free to obey or not to obey, and He doesn't want us to only obey Him on the basis of rules and threatenings.

There is plenty of evidence for the Sabbath unless we are looking for a way out. And God always leaves us room to wriggle out if we want to.

Made for Jews or made for all mankind, you cannot get around the fact that whenever the Sabbath is commanded, context of the passage explicitly mandates the command to keep the Sabbath for Israel only. You have yet to show otherwise. Show chapter and verse mandating that gentile Christians and other gentiles keep the Sabbath.

Passages you have shown so far talks about the Sabbath, or uses the Sabbath to make a point about something else. No Sabbath keeping mandate for Christians has been shown.

Respectfully

[JawgeFromJawja]

I'd like to ask a question:

You asked more than one question. My responses in blue.

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Certainly it would make a difference. We do not mistreat others because of love. Such was the explicit command of Jesus. Love your neighbor as yourself. I do not steal because of fear, but because of love.

Similarly, do we refrain from adultery because of laws or because of love for our spouse?

Yes, I do not commit adultery because I love my wife. We have mutual commitments. And also because of lust for my wife - after all, she remains a gorgeous broad, and my sex drive is only strong enough to encompass constraints of the marriage vows.

In view of all that the Bible says about the Sabbath, why do we need God to repeat the commandment in the NT in order for us to keep it?

Good grief - what a specious argument. The commandments Jesus felt relevant are repeated, over and over in the New Testament. Keeping those commandments does boil down to love:

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

In The Old Testament, we are ordered to stone those who break the Sabbath. That order was never rescinded. How many people have you stoned?

I personally believe there's a very good reason that God did not repeat the Sabbath commandments in the NT. That reason has to do with freedom. God has made us free to obey or not to obey, and He doesn't want us to only obey Him on the basis of rules and threatenings.

This makes no sense, John. Then why would any of the commandments be repeated in the NT? Yet they are.

There is plenty of evidence for the Sabbath unless we are looking for a way out. And God always leaves us room to wriggle out if we want to.

John, I am not looking for a way out. God did not command Sabbath keeping for Christians. Show me. You cannot.

Agape.

[John317]

My question is: why do we need a direct command repeated under the New Covenant in order to honor the Sabbath of the Lord our God?

It is His day, not ours. It was never referred to in the Bible as "the Jews' Sabbath." God calls it "my holy day." The same God is your God, right? So your God is calling the seventh-day of the week "my holy day."

However, look at Isaiah 56: 2-7:

Quote:

Is. 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree.

56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Note that in the above God is inviting Gentiles to share the blessings of the Sabbath.

Why wouldn't you want to do this?

It is holy time-- just like you and your wife have special time for both of you, called an annivesary. It is time when you and she renew your relationship and celebrate the time you have together.

That is exactly what the Sabbath is all about and it is for Jews and Gentiles alike, as Isaiah 56 shows.

Isn't it enough to know that God blessed the seventh day and made it holy for mankind? Mark 2: 27.

[John317]

I appreciate your post here, George. Thank you. :-)

I wrote the previous post before I saw it, probably while you were writing yours. lol

As we study the book of Daniel, there will be more opporunties to look at questions regarding the Lord's Sabbath day. The issue of worship and obedience to God's law is a big part of the book of Daniel.

[John317]

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Certainly it would make a difference. We do not mistreat others because of love. Such was the explicit command of Jesus. Love your neighbor as yourself. I do not steal because of fear, but because of love.

OK. I agree. The reason we do not steal or commit adultery is not because of the commandment. We refrain from doing those things because of love for God and love for our fellow humans.

Can we apply this same logic and principle to the Lord's Sabbath day?

For me personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me in how I spend the Sabbath if God removed the commandments about the Sabbath. I would still keep it and want to spend that special time with God, even if there were no direct commands about it.

[teresaq]

Wow!! Thank you so much!!!! I keep trying to point that out, in my "seething anger embroiled with other negative feelings when presenting" that observation!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, well, I can't thank you enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God bless you!

This is a very important point: some of you (and me too - mea culpa) show a seething anger embroiled with other negative feelings when presenting your core beliefs. We need to prayerfully work on such feelings. They are counter productive. If we cannot present our positions without an attitude of "I'm absolutely right, you're totally wrong, and if you don't change, you are headed for the Lake of Fire, and I'll be glad."

God loves you.

I love this forum.

[teresaq]

I came across a statement from a lady I believe to be a prophet-I know you know who it is-that says many will not see the importance of the sabbath until the sunday law is enforced. (When I come across it again I will post it.) Aside from that the bible says that coniction comes from the HS. So I'm not worried about your soul in the least, unless you be lacking in the "primitive Godliness", aka "Christian graces" area.

Originally Posted By: John317

I'd like to ask a question:

You asked more than one question. My responses in blue.....

There is plenty of evidence for the Sabbath unless we are looking for a way out. And God always leaves us room to wriggle out if we want to.

John, I am not looking for a way out. God did not command Sabbath keeping for Christians. Show me. You cannot.

Agape.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John317

Would we commit adultery or steal if God did not command us to refrain from those things? Let us suppose God took those things out of His commandments. Would it make a difference to us?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Certainly it would make a difference. We do not mistreat others because of love. Such was the explicit command of Jesus. Love your neighbor as yourself. I do not steal because of fear, but because of love.

OK. I agree. The reason we do not steal or commit adultery is not because of the commandment. We refrain from doing those things because of love for God and love for our fellow humans.

Can we apply this same logic and principle to the Lord's Sabbath day?

For me personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me in how I spend the Sabbath if God removed the commandments about the Sabbath. I would still keep it and want to spend that special time with God, even if there were no direct commands about it.

Quite understandable for you, John. You were brung up an Adventist. You feel comfortable with keeping the Sabbath.

The older I get, the more I consider all my time as special time spent with God. Even intimate moments with that little Adventist chic in my life. It is a beautiful personal revelation.

Knowing you, the same will happen to you, if not already.

Somehow, this reminds me of a poem I wrote to my wife, Annette. (Nettsie - a nickname given her by an uncle, who by the way, left the Adventist Church when he married of all things, a Baptist. He was an elder. I had better sense than to marry a Baptist.)

In the darkest corner of the deepest pit of Hell,

If beside my Nettsie, all would still be well.

She is my darling, my comfort, my constant delight;

When with my Nettsie, the darkest places seem bright.

I have hesitated to bring up these verses, well known to me from my first encounters with Adventists:

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Excuse posting this passage, which I have avoided heretofore in the interest of avoiding friction: I have seen many Adventists hula hooping around this passage, none of them effectively.

And

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Adventist explanation for this passage is usually that "Sabbath days" is plural, and refers to Jewish feasts or other holy days. How can that be? "--- in respect of an holy day --- " preempts that explanation. Furthermore, the weekly Sabbath is plural in some Biblical passages.

As for Isaiah 56, the chapter is addressed to the aliens living among the Jews, and to those unfortunates who had been castrated. Tanakh and I believe also Torah, orders segregation of those brutalized victims. Read the chapter carefully.

God's blessings,

[John317]

OK. I agree. The reason we do not steal or commit adultery is not because of the commandment. We refrain from doing those things because of love for God and love for our fellow humans.

Can we apply this same logic and principle to the Lord's Sabbath day?

For me personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me in how I spend the Sabbath if God removed the commandments about the Sabbath. I would still keep it and want to spend that special time with God, even if there were no direct commands about it.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Quite understandable for you, John. You were brung up an Adventist. You feel comfortable with keeping the Sabbath.

The older I get, the more I consider all my time as special time spent with God. Even intimate moments with that little Adventist chic in my life. It is a beautiful personal revelation.

I understand what you mean. We should live before God all during the week. The Sabbath doesn't prevent people from spending time with God every day of the week.

Yet the Bible says that there are six days for working and one day for the Sabbath. In other words, the Sabbath is like a 24 hour vacation with God that we can't have during the week because those other days are for humans. During the week, we are planning for the Sabbath and living for it. So unless we are living a holy life for God during the week, we are unable to keep the Sabbath holy. Only a sanctified people can keep the Sabbath holy.

An example:

You spend a lot time every day with your wife, yet I'm sure you wouldn't ignore your anniversary simply because you'd spent time with your wife on the other days of the year. You have that day reserved just for yourself and your wife to be together in order to draw closer to each other.

Similarly, Sabbath is a day for drawing closer to him-- being "sanctified"-- in a way that is impossible on other days. Why? Because the Sabbath hours are holy. The hours of the other days are not holy. God never made the other six days of the week holy. Only the seventh-day is holy time. The other days of the week are common and for labor. God's presence is what makes the Sabbath holy. God is in the Sabbath in a way in which He is not in the other days of the week.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

[John317]

What are your thoughts on Daniel chapter 3-- the story of the great image built by Nebuchadnezzar?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK. I agree. The reason we do not steal or commit adultery is not because of the commandment. We refrain from doing those things because of love for God and love for our fellow humans.

Can we apply this same logic and principle to the Lord's Sabbath day?

For me personally, it wouldn't make any difference to me in how I spend the Sabbath if God removed the commandments about the Sabbath. I would still keep it and want to spend that special time with God, even if there were no direct commands about it.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Quite understandable for you, John. You were brung up an Adventist. You feel comfortable with keeping the Sabbath.

The older I get, the more I consider all my time as special time spent with God. Even intimate moments with that little Adventist chic in my life. It is a beautiful personal revelation.

I understand what you mean. We should live before God all during the week. The Sabbath doesn't prevent people from spending time with God every day of the week.

Yet the Bible says that there are six days for working and one day for the Sabbath. In other words, the Sabbath is like a 24 hour vacation with God that we can't have during the week because those other days are for humans. During the week, we are planning for the Sabbath and living for it. So unless we are living a holy life for God during the week, we are unable to keep the Sabbath holy. Only a sanctified people can keep the Sabbath holy.

An example:

You spend a lot time every day with your wife, yet I'm sure you wouldn't ignore your anniversary simply because you'd spent time with your wife on the other days of the year. You have that day reserved just for yourself and your wife to be together in order to draw closer to each other.

Similarly, Sabbath is a day for drawing closer to him-- being "sanctified"-- in a way that is impossible on other days. Why? Because the Sabbath hours are holy. The hours of the other days are not holy. God never made the other six days of the week holy. Only the seventh-day is holy time. The other days of the week are common and for labor. God's presence is what makes the Sabbath holy. God is in the Sabbath in a way in which He is not in the other days of the week.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

John, I quite disagree with your discourse. Again, look at Paul's letter to the Romans:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

I have no doubt that I am the Lord's, and He is mine. I cannot feel less close to God at any particular time than another, God's mandate to Israel notwithstanding.

Even so, being retired probably contributes to my new closeness to God.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Aliensanctuary

I think, during the Last Days, the Kingdom of God will be explained clearly to us, including our responsibilities to obey God's laws, if we wish to join. Until then, one of the most important things we can do is to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did.

But aren't we living in the Last Day now?

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life.

There are innumerable preterists who believe that most, if not all of prophecy has been fulfilled. For several years, I have agreed with most doctrines of preterism.

Last days?

Interesting verses:

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

<< All these things mentioned earlier in Matthew Chapter 24 >>

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Last day? In what sense? The Greek word is, transliterated,

eschatos, with the following senses suggested by Strong:

&#7956;&#963;&#967;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;

eschatos

es'-khat-os

A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

The word eschatology, study of end times, is derived from that Greek word.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The 2 words "last" in this verse are again from the Greek "&#7956;&#963;&#967;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;", again in the sense of final, latter end, or uttermost.

As for the "final" book of The Bible, note the following:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John is a companion in the tribulation spoken of in Revelation?

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The word "quickly" in this passage is derived from a Greek word meaning "without delay" or "soon". "Quickly", in the Elizabethan English Of KJV, in context means "soon".

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

<< The time is at hand does not mean over 1800 years in the future relative to John's time of writing Revelation. >>

Rev 22:12 KJV And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.

Other verses in Revelation reveal or suggest that the prophecy of Revelation is to take place soon in relationship to the date of the writing of Revelation.

Comments? Gripes? Misgivings?

God bless all,

[teresaq]

It seems to me that the "last days", "latter days" referred to in the bible commenced with Christ's day. History built up to Christ and is now winding up since Christ. My opinion and of course I believe I'm right.

Originally Posted By: John317

But aren't we living in the Last Day now?

Last days?

...

Comments? Gripes? Misgivings?

God bless all,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Aliensanctuary

I think, during the Last Days, the Kingdom of God will be explained clearly to us, including our responsibilities to obey God's laws, if we wish to join. Until then, one of the most important things we can do is to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did.

But aren't we living in the Last Day now?

I do agree that it's importrant to battle our selfish natures and treat others as Jesus did. But you sound as if you believe everyone will be given a third opportunity to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that now is the day of salvation. I don't believe the Bible teaches there'll be another opportunity for us after this life.

John, your last paragraph could get into some sticky problems.

God is Just, but merciful, and the very essence of love. Being transcendent, God is omniscient in time and space, omnipotent, and infinitely wise. The very essence of love demands fairness and mercy in all of God's dealings with each and every person who lives or has ever lived.

My faith in God is that in dealing with the following vignettes, God's manifest love will be fair and merciful:

1. Ahmed was born into a wandering tribe of Arabian desert Bedouins in 345 AD,before Mohammed, but after the first century advent of Christ. His contact with the outside world was very limited. He never heard of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Israel, and Father of Jesus Christ, like so many tens of thousands of Arabian Peninsula people before him. He reverently worshiped his household idols, as did the kinsmen of Abraham, and probably even Abraham himself initially. He was a minor tribal leader who was kind and just in his official duties. He was faithful to his wives (plural),a loving father, a good friend, never dishonest, and never killed anyone. He died greatly mourned by his tribe.

I believe all the Ahmeds of ancient Arabian Peninsular history got or will get at least one other chance to be reconciled to God, and for eternal life.

How say you?

2. 1. Mohammed ben Adhem was born into the same wandering tribe of Arabian desert Bedouins in 765 AD, after Mohammed, and after the first century advent of Christ. His contact with the outside world was very limited. He heard of the Islamic version of Abraham, Issac, and Israel, and of course, Ishmael. He was taught that Jesus was a prophet, again, like so many tens of thousands of Arabian Peninsula people before him. He reverently worshiped Allah, the monotheistic God taught by the Prophet Mohamed. He was a minor religious sheikh who was kind, sincere, and just in his Islamic ministry to his people. He was faithful to his wives (plural),a loving father, a good friend, rarely dishonest in minor matters, and never killed anyone. He too died greatly mourned by his tribe.

I believe Mohammed ben Adhem got or will get at least one other chance for reconciliation with God and eternal life.

How say you?

3. Brown Eyed Deer was an American native born in the year 2010 BC. She lived a happy life as the only wife of her tribal chief, Angry Wolf, and bore him three wonderful children. She was honest, kind, never killed, was always faithful to Angry Wolf, and in her later years became a highly esteemed counselor for the young women of the tribe. She worshiped The Great Spirit, an entity who is manifest in all creation: a pantheist. She was greatly missed by her people for many years after she died.

I believe Brown Eyed Deer got or will get at least one more chance for reconciliation with God and eternal life.

How say you?

For all the hundreds of millions, even billions of Ahmeds, Mohammeds, Brown Eyed Deer who lived without a chance to hear of Christ, what do you believe about their ultimate fate?

Not a sticky problem for me. I know God to be infinite in love, patience, wisdom, power, and presence.

Agape (Ug ahp py)

George

[John317]

John, I quite disagree with your discourse. Again, look at Paul's letter to the Romans:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Those verses aren't dealing with the weekly Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He's talking about matters of human opinion-- "doubtful disputations"-- not God's law. Paul, then, is not telling his readers that it is up to them to decide whether they feel like obeying God's commandments.

[His topic is similar to the one he's dealing with in Col. 2: 16-23. There were people in the early church who were advocating the keeping of various holy days, etc. But those were different from the weekly Sabbath that God Himself made holy and commands that humans remember to keep holy. The clear distinction that Paul made between those human-made days and God's holy day is proved by Acts 13: 42-44. In a Gentile city, Paul told the people to come the next Sabbath day to hear the gospel preached. He didn't tell them to come the next day, which would have been Sunday. Instead Paul had the people wait for a whole week. And when the next Sabbath came around, it says almost the whole city of Antioch of Syria came out to hear the word of God preached. It is proof that the early Christians were still keeping the weekly Sabbath long after the death of Christ.]

Notice Romans 14: 1-- Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.

.... 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

These verses prove that the context has to do with people's individual opinions and preferences.

Paul shows elsewhere that the commandmnents of God are not merely matters of opinion or preference:

1 Cor. 7:19-- Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping of the commandments of God is what matters. (NKJV)

And Paul makes it abundantly clear that Christians are to obey the Ten Commandments, just as Christ Himself taught also:

Romans 13:8-10-- Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Matthew 19:17-19 And he said unto him, .....if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2: 8-12--

2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

[John317]

There are innumerable preterists who believe that most, if not all of prophecy has been fulfilled. For several years, I have agreed with most doctrines of preterism.

Are you aware of the origin of preterism and of who came up with that theory?

It basically denies that the Bible contains any genuine predictive prophecy.

Here's what the Wikipedia has to say about Preterism:

Quote:

There has historically been general agreement that the first systematic Preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis De Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.[8][9] Moses Stuart noted that Alcasar's Preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants,[10] and Preterism has been described in modern eschatological commentary as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy.[11]

Due to resistance by Protestant Historicists, the Preterist view was slow to gain acceptance outside the Roman Catholic Church.[12] Among Protestants it was first accepted by Hugo Grotius,[13][14] a Dutch Protestant eager to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church.[15] His first attempt to do this was entitled ‘Commentary on Certain Texts Which Deal with Antichrist’ (1640), in which he attempted to argue that the texts relating to Antichrist had their fulfillment in the 1st century AD. This was not well received by Protestants,[16] but Grotius was undeterred and in his next work ‘Commentaries On The New Testament' (1641-1650), he expanded his Preterist views to include the Olivet prophecy and Revelation.

Preterism is a false theory and interpretation of the prophecies.

[John317]

None of those examples are a problem, except as we attempt to try and reason out how God is going to deal with them.

We need to allow God to do what He knows is best. But those problems don't contradict what the Bible teaches about salvation. It's like the issue of babies. The Bible says nothing about the question of the salvation of babies, but we know that God loves them and will do what is best.

So we leave those decisions in the hands of God.

Having said that, we know that the Bible teaches that people will be lost because they didn't hear the gospel preached. That is why it's imperative that Christians take the gospel to the ends of the world and teach the people about Christ.

See Romans 10: 13-17; Matt. 28: 19-20; John 3: 16-18.

[John317]

It seems to me that the "last days", "latter days" referred to in the bible commenced with Christ's day. History built up to Christ and is now winding up since Christ.

All true. Christ's first coming defeated Satan. So from the viewpoint of God, it's just a matter of "mopping up" and getting people to make up their minds whose side they are on and where they will spend eternity.

[John317]

Other verses in Revelation reveal or suggest that the prophecy of Revelation is to take place soon in relationship to the date of the writing of Revelation.

What it's saying is that the prophecies would begin to be fulfilled soon. It is obvious that the whole prophecy of Revelation was not fulfilled in John's day. That's an absurd notion because it is not supported at all by the books of Daniel and Revelation.

God always presents the coming of Christ as being "soon" or immanent. For very good reason. Imagine if God had told John and the first century Christians that Christ would not come for another 2,000 years.

Knowing how people are, they would have thought there was no reason to get ready for Jesus to come since they had a long time to prepare.

From the viewpoint of human beings-- who only live about 70 years on average-- the Lord's coming is definitely "soon" because as soon as they die, it will be as if Christ comes immediately for them. When the saved close their eyes in death, the next thing they will be aware of is Christ's coming. On the other hand, if a person is among the lost, the next thing he will be aware of after death will be the resurrection of the damned and the Great White Throne Judgment.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, I quite disagree with your discourse. Again, look at Paul's letter to the Romans:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Those verses aren't dealing with the weekly Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He's talking about matters of human opinion-- "doubtful disputations"-- not God's law. Paul, then, is not telling his readers that it is up to them to decide whether they feel like obeying God's commandments.

My responses are in true blue.

If those verses are not dealing with the weekly Sabbath, the most significant day of all throughout the ages for our Jewish brothers, then what "matters of human opinion", what "doubtful disputations" are they dealing with with regard to days? When gentiles were converted to Christianity, which was earlier considered a Jewish cult, what other days of disputation would have been considered so compelling an issue?

You rather glossed over that issue without giving any solid evidence for other days to be considered. You may say that the days of reference were other Jewish holy days, but no other day or days have such significance for Jewish theology as the weekly Sabbath.

[His topic is similar to the one he's dealing with in Col. 2: 16-23. There were people in the early church who were advocating the keeping of various holy days, etc ---

Please read, read with comprehension, Colossians 2: 16:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore condemne you in meate and drinke, or in respect of an holy day, or of the newe moone, or of the Sabbath dayes,

Paul made it clear that he was writing of, including all Jewish holy days AND the Sabbath.

But those were different from the weekly Sabbath that God Himself made holy and commands that humans remember to keep holy.

There you go again. Where in Scripture does God command that "humans" other than Israel keep the Sabbath?

The clear distinction that Paul made between those human-made days and God's holy day is proved by Acts 13: 42-44. In a Gentile city, Paul told the people to come the next Sabbath day to hear the gospel preached. He didn't tell them to come the next day, which would have been Sunday.

You are right. He did not tell them to come the next day. But they did not wait a whole week. See verse 43.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Instead Paul had the people wait for a whole week.

Not so. See verse 43.

And when the next Sabbath came around, it says almost the whole city of Antioch of Syria came out to hear the word of God preached. It is proof that the early Christians were still keeping the weekly Sabbath long after the death of Christ.]

Notice Romans 14: 1-- Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.

.... 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

These verses prove that the context has to do with people's individual opinions and preferences.

Paul shows elsewhere that the commandmnents of God are not merely matters of opinion or preference:

1 Cor. 7:19-- Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping of the commandments of God is what matters. (NKJV)

And Paul makes it abundantly clear that Christians are to obey the Ten Commandments, just as Christ Himself taught also:

Romans 13:8-10-- Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

I am glad that you quoted Romans 13: 8 - 10. He reiterates the Commandments required by Jesus in Matthew 19: 17 - 19, which does not include keeping the Sabbath.

Matthew 19:17-19 And he said unto him, .....if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2: 8-12--

2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

This passage, too, reiterates the commandments without even a hint about keeping the Sabbath. If you come back with a protest invoking the phrase "the whole law" as required in verse 10, such is a very feeble argument for the Sabbath, which is never mentioned in any other similar passage enumerating the commandments in the New Testament. And those passages enumerating the commandments for Christians are found throughout the New Testament.

The essence of The Law is love. Love for God and love for your fellow man.

Now for the bottom line. This question is directed not only to John317, but to all Adventists. I, along with hundreds of millions, probably even tens of billions, of non-SDA Christians, cannot honestly accept Sabbath keeping as a commandment required for gentiles. To so affirm would make us liars, which itself breaks commandments. In your opinion, does that doom us to the Fiery Lake?

A corollary question is have there been Christians other than Adventists after 1844 AD?

[John317]

The clear distinction that Paul made between those human-made days and God's holy day is proved by Acts 13: 42-44. In a Gentile city, Paul told the people to come the next Sabbath day to hear the gospel preached. He didn't tell them to come the next day, which would have been Sunday.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

You are right. He did not tell them to come the next day. But they did not wait a whole week. See verse 43.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Verse 43 is simply saying that after the worship service broke up, some of the people followed Paul and Barnabas in order to keep talking. Notice the people they talked to were told "to continue in the grace of God." That means they were already believers in Christ. Also, there's no suggestion that they had meetings where they heard the word preached. They were conversing, not worshipping.

Verse 42 even says that the Gentiles asked that Paul preach some more the next Sabbath day. They didn't ask that Paul preach to them the next day, Sunday. And it is obvious that Paul didn't suggest that there was a new day for worship. So they all waited for a full week to hear the word preached to them, just as verse 42, 44 say. Verse 43 is not talking about coming together to hear the preaching of the word. Again, it is talking about the fact that some of the believers followed after Paul and that those believers were encouraged to continue in the grace of God. It may be that they talked together while walking home. It would be speculation, though, to claim they went to a meeting to continue preaching. There's no evidence of that.

[BobRyan]

Other verses in Revelation reveal or suggest that the prophecy of Revelation is to take place soon in relationship to the date of the writing of Revelation.

[BobRyan]

The clear distinction that Paul made between those human-made days and God's holy day is proved by Acts 13: 42-44. In a Gentile city, Paul told the people to come the next Sabbath day to hear the gospel preached. He didn't tell them to come the next day, which would have been Sunday.