If it is a Christian Nation.. by Colbert

[Dr. Shane]

Actually, the poor DO pay. It's called hidden taxes. For example, every time medicaid coverage goes down ...

You are correct that the poor pay hidden taxes but none of your examples demonstrate any of them.

The gasoline tax is a hidden tax. Many think that gasoline costs what the posted price is when in actuality we are paying around 80 cents directly in state and federal taxes plus we are indirectly paying all the taxes the oil company, trucking and shipping companies paid to get the oil out of the ground, refined and into our gas tank. Whenever we make a phone call their is a hidden telephone tax we are paying. Any time we buy anything that is produced by a corporation we are paying the taxes they paid and passed down to us.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Paula

Actually, the poor DO pay.

Let's try staying on the same page. Specifically federal incme tax

This is very disingenuous. It doesn't matter the form of tax a person is paying. All revenues go into the same fund. The poor pay Social Security and Medicate tax. Actually, the burden for Social Security and Medicare rests on the poor and middle class. The poor also pay gasoline and telephone tax. Every time a poor person buys something produced by a corporation they pay corporate tax.

Consider an example from the church. Imagine if the wealthiest church members gave offerings both at Wednesday night prayer meeting and Sabbath morning service but the poorer members only gave offerings on Sabbath morning. Could the wealthy members than self-righteously claim that the poorer members are not giving offerings (and then under their breath whisper 'at prayer meeting')? Well, yes they could claim that but it would be disingenuous because the money given on Sabbath morning goes into the same account as that given on Wednesday evening. So it is with federal taxes. The money collected from the gas tax and the Social Security tax goes into the same fund as that collected from the federal income tax.

Don't let the right-wing spin-misters spin you like a top. The poor pay taxes. The poor pay taxes. The poor pay taxes. Everyone pays taxes. If you breathe air and drink water, you pay taxes.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Paula

Actually, the poor DO pay. It's called hidden taxes. For example, every time medicaid coverage goes down ...

You are correct that the poor pay hidden taxes but none of your examples demonstrate any of them.

The gasoline tax is a hidden tax. Many think that gasoline costs what the posted price is when in actuality we are paying around 80 cents directly in state and federal taxes plus we are indirectly paying all the taxes the oil company, trucking and shipping companies paid to get the oil out of the ground, refined and into our gas tank. Whenever we make a phone call their is a hidden telephone tax we are paying. Any time we buy anything that is produced by a corporation we are paying the taxes they paid and passed down to us.

Rich,middle income,poor all pay the same percentage of so called hidden taxes,but middle income and rich pay far more as they consume more gas etc

Anytime any business person faces increased taxes or regulatory expense,the consumer will pay.

[Dr. Shane]

Rich,middle income,poor all pay the same percentage of so called hidden taxes,but middle income and rich pay far more as they consume more gas etc

I am not sure our gasoline and telephone consumption can be charted along income brackets. Many of the poor drive older vehicles that do not get good gas mileage and yet many of the rich drive gas hogs which actually drives the cost of gas up for the rest of us.

However it certainly is fair that those that consume the most pay the most in taxes. Most conservatives favor consumption taxes.

[bonnie]

I am not sure our gasoline and telephone consumption can be charted along income brackets. Many of the poor drive older vehicles that do not get good gas mileage and yet many of the rich drive gas hogs which actually drives the cost of gas up for the rest of us.

However it certainly is fair that those that consume the most pay the most in taxes. Most conservatives favor consumption taxes.

If the poor have older vehicles with poor gas mileage they can restrict their driving.

I get good mileage on my 11 year old Cavalier. I restrict my driving at the price of gas now.Not that hard to do

If the telphone tax is a problem go for just basic service.Cuts down on the taxes.

Yes,if you are going to consume more of those products or services with a tax you will and should pay more in dollars

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That logic is the same as saying that since their are those that speed, drive recklessly and drive drunk on the highways, that we should close down the highway system or install speed bumps on the interstate.

No,that logic says those that abuse should pay the price.If I drive drunk on the highway chances are good I will be stopped.

The fine is hefty and can lead to a loss of the privilege to drive,jail time,and very expensive insurance.

It is the same logic that caused me to pay 110.00 per speeding violation and the third time you find yourself in front of a judge trying to convince him you should keep your license

Bonnie correct.

Tom not.

`oG

[bonnie]

Bonnie correct.

Tom not.

`oG

It seems that some want to almost erect a shrine to poverty and the poor. They need to get off the backside and strive for more.

There is a way out of poverty for many but it can be a hard long uphill battle and they would like to stay at the bottom of the hill and rest.

With the exception of those that are handicapped in some way,no one has to stay a working lifetime at minimum wage. While education is important financial success can be achieved

without a college degree.

I would not have wanted to do so but could have supported our four sons with my cleaning service. I earned more every year than many that I worked for that had a college degree. Not to glamourous but good money.

At present I know 3 single mothers that would rather draw welfare than clean houses. If I had my way I would kick their keister to the door and tell them they best get busy,welfare checks are all done

[olger]

Isn't that the truth! I like the shrine analogy. Jesus didn't give laziness or greediness 'high marks' in the Good Book. Some overzealous enablers need to stop making people lazier in the name of "righteousness."

I wrote an article on the social gospel two months ago. It's on Facebook for now.

`oG

[bonnie]

Isn't that the truth! I like the shrine analogy. Jesus didn't give laziness or greediness 'high marks' in the Good Book. Some overzealous enablers need to stop making people lazier in the name of "righteousness."

I wrote an article on the social gospel two months ago. It's on Facebook for now.

`oG

There are many that need a temporary hand up.No one should go hungry,especially a child.Once that immediate need is met there should be serious discussion on how best to change the situation.If that same person is sitting in the same place ,hungry, 3 weeks down the road, he should find himself with very skimpy dining

There should be demands placed on a welfare check and a limitation.If there is so much real concern for seniors choosing between heat and meds then get the young people off.

Dependency breeds contempt and a sense of "I deserve it"

No one has a right to demand the financial assets of another.

It is theirs.What they should do with their wealth as christians is another story and between themselves and God

[olger]

We agree again.

As to welfare, I would trade one pack of food stamp for one bag of trash picked up along the road somewhere.

[Paula]

Originally Posted By: Paula

Actually, the poor DO pay. It's called hidden taxes. For example, every time medicaid coverage goes down ...

You are correct that the poor pay hidden taxes but none of your examples demonstrate any of them.

The gasoline tax is a hidden tax. Many think that gasoline costs what the posted price is when in actuality we are paying around 80 cents directly in state and federal taxes plus we are indirectly paying all the taxes the oil company, trucking and shipping companies paid to get the oil out of the ground, refined and into our gas tank. Whenever we make a phone call their is a hidden telephone tax we are paying. Any time we buy anything that is produced by a corporation we are paying the taxes they paid and passed down to us.

Shane, technically you are right. Usually when the term "hidden taxes" is used it is used in reference to gas, phone, consumption taxes (think high taxes for cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, etc...) the "sin taxes", which also include gambling taxes, etc... However, there is also a stream of thought that includes the things I mentioned (lowering Medicaid coverage, lowering Pell Grant coverage for students, SS payments that don't keep up with inflation, in the "hidden tax" argument. Why? If in order to keep the Top 5% exempt from paying taxes, you have to take away the services that are offered to the little guy at the bottom, you just, inadvertently "taxed" the little guy. This "spending cut" is actually a tax increase. Look at this way. If the Bush tax cuts were allowed to expire, future deficits would be cut in half. But, since no one wants to touch the money of the super rich (top 5%), they would rather tax the poor by removing social services, and thus lowering the deficit. On the other hand, every time you exempt big business, hedge fund managers, and the top 5% from paying taxes, you just bought yourself a massive spending bill. How anyone can be for that, is beyond me.

[Paula]

Wow! Maybe where you live that is simple to do. But try living in South Florida where everything is sprawled out all over the place!! Look, I live on a budget. My husband bought a 20 year old diesel Mercedes a few years ago. He goes to the local chinese restaurant, buys used cooking oil for 40 cents a gallon and thats what we drive on. However, not everyone is able to do the necessary conversions etc.. to get biodeisel. Most of the people I know drive over 500 miles a week. They live in one city and work in another. In today's economy you can't just quit a job because of the long commute. You take the job you can find, no matter how far you have to drive cause you don't know how long it will be before you find another job. To say people can just "restrict" their driving is disingenuous. And no, we DON'T have public transportation down here. No trains, no Metro, no Subway, buses come every hour, never run on time... if you want to go to work by bus (there's a lady at my job who does) you have to leave home 3 hours before you need to be at work! And then when we finish our jobs at 10pm she has to get a ride home, cause the buses don't run that late!! Anyways... the lack of understanding for the reality of others along with the lack of compassion for their struggles on this website never ceases to amaze me.

[Paula]

We agree again.

As to welfare, I would trade one pack of food stamp for one bag of trash picked up along the road somewhere.

Hey, I am ALL for a program that not only feeds the needy, but that "teaches them to fish". I think throwing money at the problem is not a long-term solution. Everyone who goes through the welfare system SHOULD be made to go to classes of some sort in order to be placed in decent paying jobs. I believe that MOST people on welfare want nothing more than to get a good paying job so that they can live a good, productive and comfortable life with their family. Very very few people actually "want" to live in poverty.

[bonnie]

If in order to keep the Top 5% exempt from paying taxes, you have to take away the services that are offered to the little guy at the bottom, you just, inadvertently "taxed" the little guy.

[Dr. Shane]

This "spending cut" is actually a tax increase. Look at this way.

[Paula]

Quote:

This "spending cut" is actually a tax increase. Look at this way.

wow... I was typing really fast and I ended up literally "butchering" the english language there... lol... meant to say, look at IT this way...

Quote:

We can't go there without butchering the English language. That is unnecessary and somewhat dishonest. One can make the argument for not cutting spending on the low income without claiming that to do so would be taxing them.

I disagree.. and there are lots of folks who do too... hence the argument between both parties...

Originally Posted By: Paula

every time you exempt big business, hedge fund managers, and the top 5% from paying taxes, you just bought yourself a massive spending bill.

Again, we have to butcher the English language to claim that.

Let's say that I have an opportunity to mow lawns on Sundays and thus earn an extra $200/week. I decide to spend the time with my family instead. Can I then say I spent $200 in order to spend time with my family?

Well, if you just don't mow the lawn and simply don't make the 200, thats fine. But if you decide not to mow the lawn, not to make the $200... go out with the family, and then force the homeless man down the street to go without eating and to give you his money... then that would be very wrong wouldn't it? My analogy stinks, but its the same thing we are now doing. The rich keep their tax exemption, but social services get cut to cover the deficit. How that's not a "hidden tax" on the poor in your mind is beyond me.

Anyways, the fact is that reform is needed on both sides of the debate. I would love to see all spending programs trimmed in order to have only the necessary employees and expenditures. I would love to see SS recipients getting a fair check that keeps up with inflation. I would love to see people on welfare having to go through some sort of courses that would place them in a position to have a decent paying job so that they can work and earn a living with pride. I would also love to see Corporations and the rich paying taxes like the rest of us. The fairest thing to do would be to have a flat tax. That's God's system. The tithe is across the board. If you make 100 a week you pay 10 dollars, if you make 1000 you pay 100. If government would charge a flat rate across the board it would make the system fair and easy to understand/maneuver. So of course that will never happen.

[Dr. Shane]

The rich keep their tax exemption, but social services get cut to cover the deficit.

[Paula]

Shane, I agree that more is required of the rich than the poor. However, I think a flat rate would make it impossible for politicians to "exempt" the wealthiest at the expense of the poor. A flat tax can start at a certain bracket (for example, a family of 4 making 24000 a year could be exempt), that way you would not be hitting families for another 2400 (if it were 10%) at the end of the year. This is something that would at least be fairer than what we have now.

My parents are small business owners. Last year they payed nearly 10000 in federal income tax. They are not rich, they do not make hundreds of thousands a year. And yet GE paid NOTHING and got a return!! Those are the things that most conservatives fail to see. The politicians aren't worried about the poor nearly as much as you and I think they are. They want to help those who can help them, and I'm afraid its not the poor or the middle class.

[Dr. Shane]

GE never will pay anything. They pass the cost down to the consumer.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Wow! Maybe where you live that is simple to do. But try living in South Florida where everything is sprawled out all over the place!! Look' date=' I live on a budget. My husband bought a 20 year old diesel Mercedes a few years ago. He goes to the local chinese restaurant, buys used cooking oil for 40 cents a gallon and thats what we drive on. However, not everyone is able to do the necessary conversions etc.. to get biodeisel. Most of the people I know drive over 500 miles a week. They live in one city and work in another. In today's economy you can't just quit a job because of the long commute. You take the job you can find, no matter how far you have to drive cause you don't know how long it will be before you find another job. To say people can just "restrict" their driving is disingenuous. And no, we DON'T have public transportation down here. No trains, no Metro, no Subway, buses come every hour, never run on time... if you want to go to work by bus (there's a lady at my job who does) you have to leave home 3 hours before you need to be at work! And then when we finish our jobs at 10pm she has to get a ride home, cause the buses don't run that late!! Anyways... the lack of understanding for the reality of others along with the lack of compassion for their struggles on this website never ceases to amaze me.

[/quote']

Please don't lecture me on the realities of being poor.It is not necessary to go into details but my childhood was spent in a poverty that made today's welfare recipient look well to do.

My parents frequently had to make the choice of gas for the car and other necessary items.Or how many rooms in the house we would heat.

Compassion does not mean that I feel I have a right to take from one by force and give to another.Especially thru the government where so much of what is taken is wasted.Nor do I believe it compassionate to keep a poor person in poverty by giving him/her just enough to exist but not prosper.

[bonnie]

Shane, I agree that more is required of the rich than the poor. However, I think a flat rate would make it impossible for politicians to "exempt" the wealthiest at the expense of the poor. A flat tax can start at a certain bracket (for example, a family of 4 making 24000 a year could be exempt), that way you would not be hitting families for another 2400 (if it were 10%) at the end of the year. This is something that would at least be fairer than what we have now.

My parents are small business owners. Last year they payed nearly 10000 in federal income tax. They are not rich, they do not make hundreds of thousands a year. And yet GE paid NOTHING and got a return!! Those are the things that most conservatives fail to see. The politicians aren't worried about the poor nearly as much as you and I think they are. They want to help those who can help them, and I'm afraid its not the poor or the middle class.

GE received a pretty good break and a check if I am not mistaken because of their so called green energy policies.If green energy cannot sustain itself it should not be subsidized.However I am sure those employed by GE from the top down did pay federal income tax.

It is hard to beat God's plans.The "more" those with more money are to do is not thru taxation.It is thru one on one and "freely" given to charities.The family receiving welfare would not have been one iota better off if GE had paid corporate tax.Only 28 cents of every dollar in tax for social services is actually spent on the poor.Over two a million dollars did go however to study how to help chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly and to study aids prevention

I am pretty sure common sense would say before two million dollars that prostitution and alcohol equal a far greater chance of aids.We do know how Aids is prevented.

[bonnie]

Shane, technically you are right. Usually when the term "hidden taxes" is used it is used in reference to gas, phone, consumption taxes (think high taxes for cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, etc...) the "sin taxes", which also include gambling taxes, etc... However, there is also a stream of thought that includes the things I mentioned (lowering Medicaid coverage, lowering Pell Grant coverage for students, SS payments that don't keep up with inflation, in the "hidden tax" argument. Why? If in order to keep the Top 5% exempt from paying taxes, you have to take away the services that are offered to the little guy at the bottom, you just, inadvertently "taxed" the little guy. This "spending cut" is actually a tax increase. Look at this way. If the Bush tax cuts were allowed to expire, future deficits would be cut in half. But, since no one wants to touch the money of the super rich (top 5%), they would rather tax the poor by removing social services, and thus lowering the deficit. On the other hand, every time you exempt big business, hedge fund managers, and the top 5% from paying taxes, you just bought yourself a massive spending bill. How anyone can be for that, is beyond me.

Again,the top 5% do pay taxes,they are not exempt from federal income tax.

How anyone can be for the poor and working class paying more is hard to understand.

The cost of doing business is passed on by both big and small business.Doesn't take a lot to figure out who it is passed on to.

Very tiny piece of the pie.I now charge 2.00 more per item over last year as my cost has gone up.I deal with young families with babies.Not hard to understand who is taking the hit.

[Guest]

The rich keep their tax exemption, but social services get cut to cover the deficit. How that's not a "hidden tax" on the poor in your mind is beyond me.

But that's not what actually happens, therefore it is a bogus argument based on a false premise. Giving the rich a tax break will never cause ANY social program to be cut, ever. They are in no way connected. For one thing, giving the rich a tax break doesn't cause this deficit you speak of. On the contrary, tax cuts cause revenues to increase, not decrease. This has been proven over and over again, but for some reason democrats cannot seem to grasp the concept.

When people are free to use more of their own hard earned money the way they see fit, the economy thrives. More regulations and higher taxes always hinders an economy.