The 1260 Year Interpretation of Protestantism

[fccool]

Going back to Lysimachus' argument about Solar Years vs Lunar Years and problems with fitting these into these number of days... i.e. 1:

The 3 1/2 "times" or years of Dan 12 seems to be identical with the 3 1/2 "times" of Rev 12:14, which in turn appears to be identical with the 42 months of Rev 11:2 and the 1,260 days of Rev 11:3; 12:6. It seems that all these prophetic time periods use a month of 30 days. Thus, 3 1/2 years = 3 1/2 x 12, or 42 months = 42 x 30, or 1,260 days.

Now, some may object by saying that the problem is that 30 day months were Babylonian calendar. Yet, let's discuss the Jewish one for a minute.

Key factors in the Jewish calendar

When the Jewish calendar is analyzed, it is found that there are three very special times each year. These are the three times that the men of Israel were commanded to appear before the Lord.

The feast of unleavened bread, following the Passover, was a 7-day period in early spring. The feast of harvest, or first fruits, which the NT calls "Pentecost", came 49 days (seven weeks), or the 50th day (hence "Pente-cost"), after the day following Passover approximately 45 days after the end of the feast of unleavened bread.

The calendar date was usually between Sivan 3 and Sivan 5. The small discrepancies here arise because sometimes Jewish months were 29 days long and sometimes they were 30, and sometimes days were counted inclusively (ie counting the beginning and ending days) and sometimes they were counted exclusively (ie not counting the beginning and ending days).

Finally, the third time of general gathering came in early fall. This was a 21-day period commencing with the Feast of Trumpets, continuing on to the Day of Atonement, and culminating in the Feast of Ingathering, or Tabernacles.

The seven annual holidays, called "holy convocations", all fall within these three times. They are:

1) Abib 14 = Passover;

2) Abib 21 = The last day of Feast of Unleavened Bread;

3) Sivan 3,4, or 5 = Pentecost; Feast of Firstfruits;

4) Ethanim 1 = Feast of Trumpets (also called Rosh Hashanah: New Years Day);

5) Ethanim 10 = Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur);

6) Ethanim 15 = The first day of Feast of Tabernacles;

7) Ethanim 21 = The last day of Feast of Tabernacles.

Many significant events in Israel's Bible history, far too numerous to list here, occurred on these special days. Other days in the Jews' annual cycle were relatively unimportant.

Relevant to this discussion are the following points:

1) From Abib 21 (the last day of the Passover "cluster") to Ethanim 21 (the last day of the Tabernacles "cluster") is exactly 1/2 year.

2) From Ethanim 21 to Abib 21 is, of course, exactly 1/2 year also.

3) Thus, a time period that begins with either Abib 21 or Ethanim 21, and runs precisely 3 1/2 years, will end on the other of the two.

4) A time period beginning Ethanim 21 and ending Abib 21, with another 45 days (1,335 less 1,290) added on, would climax at the third significant date in the Jewish calendar (Sivan 3, 4, or 5) -- Pentecost.

5) A 30-day period is the difference between the 1,290 days and the 1,260 days.

The Jews generally added 13th month to their calendar every third year or so. This was done to keep their calendar in line with the seasons, since their months were either 29 or 30 days, and thus their ordinary year was only about 354 days. 11 1/4 days added up each year, so that every third year (or more precisely, 7 years out of every 19) an extra month was needed. So, assuming that a 3-year period would necessitate one month, we have the reason why 3 1/2 years of 30-day months (ie 1,260 days) becomes 1,290 days -- the addition of precisely one month. Using a 30-day model, then, there are exactly 1,290 days from the end of the Tabernacles "cluster" of holy days (including Yom Kippur and the week-long Feast of Tabernacles) to the end of the Passover "cluster" of holy days (including the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread) 3 1/2 years later. And another 45 days (for a total of 1,335) brings us to the final "holy convocation" day, and the third "general assembly" of the year -- Pentecost.

So, you have to ask yourself, "Why these numbers", and the answers is plainly shown in certain feast days of Israel, which as we remember were a foreshadowing of something to come. And perhaps something to come does revolve around that which was foreshadowed. And perhaps it has much to do with those days being literal, and not day-for-year, in which any such connection does not make any sense and becomes simply arbitrary number of years... just because.

[miz3]

"Revelation 9:15

(15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Now here is a time prophecy right out of the Book of Revelation.

Using the year/day thing we get:

1hour = 1week

1day = 1year

1month= 30years

1year = 365years

TOTAL PROPHETIC TIME = 396 YEARS AND 1 WEEK!

When did the 396 yrs and one week begin and when do they end!?

Now if I should have used 360 years = 1 prophetic year then my total changes to be 391 years and one week! The question still stands!

I am sure Lysimachus knows the answer but others are free to step in also!

[teresaq]

I see your point, fccool. While I still believe in the year/day principle, I am glad to see possible questions that might occur to someone I would be sharing prophecy with.

Let me point something very important here by simply showing you some texts:

Genesis 15:13: "And He said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years."

Genesis 41:29,30: "Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt: and there shall arise after them seven years of famine."

Isaiah 38:5: "Behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years."

Jeremiah 25:11,12: "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

I could go on and on. The point is that I can't find (perhaps you can help me) no examples where days are to be years.

Let's move on:

70x7 of Daniel

Daniel 9:24: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city."

The problem with assuming that the discussion means "weeks" is the problem with interpretation of the word "week", which should be "seven" or "shabua". So, literally means 70x7s. The immediate context was revealed that years was discussed and not days. "Day" is not even mentioned.

"in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years."

It's clear that the original was years that Daniel understood from original prophecy...

Jeremiah 24:11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So, when 70x7s was given to Daniel, he understood them as years, in context of Jeremiah's prophecy. It was simply 70x7s of something. And in context it was literal years, not symbolic ones.

Inconsistency

The problem with assuming the day-for-year principle is inconsistency in presentation. We have literal 1000 years in revelation. We don't separate them into days and turn those into years. Why? Because these are meant to be known as years. Likewise, if we are going to take down the days, and turn them into years, perhaps we can ask ourselves whether we are doing it to fit a certain dogma, or we are doing it because it reflects the truth.

[12tribes]

"Revelation 9:15

(15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Now here is a time prophecy right out of the Book of Revelation.

Using the year/day thing we get:

1hour = 1week

1day = 1year

1month= 30years

1year = 365years

TOTAL PROPHETIC TIME = 396 YEARS AND 1 WEEK!

When did the 396 yrs and one week begin and when do they end!?

Now if I should have used 360 years = 1 prophetic year then my total changes to be 391 years and one week! The question still stands!

I am sure Lysimachus knows the answer but others are free to step in also!

This has been fulfilled by Islam

In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfilment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the Second Advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}

At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. (See Appendix.) When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}

There was war between Turkey and Egypt. The sultan of Turkey appealed to Europe for help. Britain, Russia, Austria and Prussia sent an ultimatum to Egypt. On Aug. 11th, 1840, the Sultan of Turkey signed away his independence. Turkey became known as "the Sick Man of the East."

Over 1.000 atheists were converted by the amazing accuracy of this prophecy. On the very day was this prophecy fulfilled.

"At the very moment." Bible prophecy is not only fulfilled, but fulfilled on time.

G. Burnside Revelation, pages 105, 106

[fccool]

Quote:

In other words, Ellen White stretches what the Lord showed and revealed to her in vision.

I'm going to tell you that I don't know. I can only go by veracity of certain information and reasoning. If that information conflicts with both Biblical record, and history, then it would be dishonest to ram it through solely based on "You are rejecting the prophet of the Lord".

Honesty works in opposite way that you are presenting it to be.

Quote:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Quote:

Once again, before you come in here discussing this, I really recommend you take out time to read Heidi Heik's 320+ page book entitled "AD 538 Source Book". There is much more than meets the eye.

I've read a lot of material on the subject. Both pro and con. I believe that you have not read enough "con" material in order to adequately answer the questions that I've had.

Quote:

There are MANY MANY ingredients to the 538 A.D. date. Not just the Sunday Law. When combining ALL the many elements that occurred in 538 A.D., it makes this date stand out far superior to all the rest.

This date was not recognized to be such before 19th century. This day was derived from backtracking from 1798 date that was thought to be of some significance by theologians who thought that they were living through the end times and that Christ was coming back in their lifetime.

Until that day the year 538 was hardly even mentioned by anyone in History of protestantism as commencement of anything.

Allow me to demonstrate an example with Israel.

1) The date 1948 was an important date in history of Israel and Jews worldwide.

2) Let's apply 1260 year prophecy to it! 1948 - 1260 = 688. Wow! There must be something significant about that date?! Let's search history and find out?

3) A Dome of Rock, which is the sacred holy site of Muslims was built in 688. And the inscription dated back to 688 reads:

“…O People of the Book!

Don’t be excessive in the name of your faith!

Do not say things about God but the truth!

The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, is indeed a messenger of God:

The Almighty extended a word to Mary,

and a spirit too.

So believe in God and all the messengers,

and stop talking about a Trinity.

Cease in your own best interests!

Verily God is the God of unity.

Lord Almighty! That God would beget a child?

Either in the Heavens or on the Earth?...”

Sounds like a threat of persecution to me. And from then on Muslims went on persecuting Jews and Christians while blaspheming God, until it was wounded in 1948

None of that is correct, obviously. I'm just finding what I was looking for! That's a well-known phenomenon in human psychology. If you look for some connection, the you'll find it. That's how conspiracy theories form, and some of these are fairly outrageous.

For example. In order to fit the papacy into the 666 idea, the geomatria is employed (why????? that's a pagan idea) to calculate the number of a fairly obscure title that's used in Donation of Constantine, which is considered to a forge by scholars worldwide. Yet, the myths went as far as to say that it was inscribed on Papal Miter (Tiara), which was actually taught by many SDA pastors and leaders. Many still hold to this day that this is true, which it is not.

Why was that title invoked? To find some way of calculating 666 with Papacy in the middle of it. The Papacy was already declared to be the beast before the number was even calculated ... so the mystery of the number is irrelevant! That's a very honest approach

Likewise, with the date of 1798... the protestants already KNEW that Papacy was the beast. They only needed some evidence to fit that view into the prophecy somehow.

But, let's say that it did not work, and there nothing significant happened in 538. Do you really think that some other interpretation with Papacy in the middle of it would not be found? When you work backwards, then you'll always find a way to construct a timeline that "fits".

I believe that if we are to search the truth and teach the world about Christ, then it has to be done in honest manner, without exaggeration or forcing facts and history.

I respect your beliefs. I understand why you hold them. I certainly don't dismiss a possibility. The problem becomes with teaching this possibility as incontrovertible fact by searching for obscure things and then making them into important dates and facts. Third Synod of Orleans, and Vicarius Filei Dei type of things.

If you truly believe that E.G. White's prophetic confirmation is enough, then why not simply start with "E.G. White said that..." ? I think that you and other SDA scholars avoid that, because they value objectivity in terms of Biblical prophecy and certain facts.

Yet, throwing the "I doubt your honesty because you reject E.G.White" is not a very scholarly approach this issue. It attacks me personally, instead of focusing on the argument. And frankly, it can be interpreted as a last-resort defense when the evidence fails to speak for itself.

[fccool]

Quote:

If you cannot find an original source giving this satisfactory information needed, the Sunday Law in the Third Council of Orleans stands vindicated.

Stands vindicated as what? What prophecy does it fulfill?

To point the ecclesiastical law and the punishment you are talking about is like pointing to a Puritan's Sunday law in one particular colony and calling it a fulfillment of the prophecy. Both were locally enforced (provincial), and both are insignificant in the scope of prophetic scale of both Daniel and Revelation.

I think to fully understand this issue you must understand a difference between a provincial synod (council) and ecumenical one.

Provincial one decided the issues in isolated local areas. The ecumenical one decided the issues of the whole Church. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council

There was no Pope at that Synod writing a decree that all of those who do any work on Sunday are to be punished with banishment and confiscation of property. It was a provincial council.

I'm sorry, but I think that the reason it's given more weight that it should is in fact due to it's coinciding with the date 538.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Curious... how do you justify the insertion into text of [by legislation]?

>>Revelation 13:12 uses similar language in "causing". Remember, the focus in Daniel 7:25 is "changing times and laws". One must employ legislation to "speak" in regards to changing God's laws.<<

Sorry, in checking Revelation 13:12 – even the sense ”by legislation” escapes me. As for “changing times and laws” – one cannot take the phrase to mean literally and only – Gd’s laws. That’s a rather narrow view...

[fccool]

Quote:

I see your point, fccool. While I still believe in the year/day principle, I am glad to see possible questions that might occur to someone I would be sharing prophecy with.

Once again, I respect anyone who holds this belief. I don't believe that it's completely without any support. I just give my reasons why I don't think that God would be so confusing as to have us break down months and years into days, and then re-assemble them back into prophetic years. If 3.5 years really means 1260 years, then what can we say about a 1000? What can we say about a week, an hour or a day? How can we ever be certain when day is a day, and year is a year?

If He says to you, I'll come back tomorrow, would you second guess whether he meant next year?

I believe that the issue here is a need, and perhaps a want for these to be more than literal, because of already preconceived interpretation of other events. Therefore, that preconception ends up interpreting the dates, and not the other way around.

Yet, I don't believe that this is what prophecy is for.

For example, Christ gave the certain prophecy that Peter would deny him three times before rooster crows. It was not given in order for Peter to find a way to recognize this event and to identify certain people. Neither it was given to him so he cold prevent it, although perhaps he could if he was not so arrogant as to think that there's no possible way.

It was given to him so he could recognize post-facto that arrogant approach to belief results in hypocrisy. He thought that he was honest and "spiritual", yet in fact he was only playing a game, and wearing a mask. Christ knew his response. He likewise knew what's going to happen when he realized his weakness and need for humility. So, the prophecy was given to him as a lesson.

Virtually all of the prophecy is such. It's given in a manner that made people realize certain aspects of their character. It's all a big lesson.

If we approach this lesson as "we-know-it-all", then we can certainly expect that sad realization when the rooster does crow.

In a way, I do see many Adventists to be like Peter, saying "Not me God! I keep your law! I can see that Pope is the antichrist! I will not take that mark no matter what, and I'll make sure to warn the whole world".

In fact the arrogance somewhat get to the point that we as a church equate ourselves with the angel of God who proclaims the last message. I don't believe it's our job.

We need to get back to the simplicity of the message and understanding, which is love. It's only through love that everything falls into place and makes sense. The prophecy is conditional. It may or may not come to be. Let's say that there is in fact a universal change for the better. Adventists and other would be so angry that they would call God a liar and grow resentment... sort of like Jonah did.

"But, God, you said that things are going to get worse for all of us, and especially the evil people."

And that's what I end up hearing. When something bad happens "Come Lord Jesus. The end is near". It's sort of a secret desire for things finally break down so that Jesus would finally come back. That's not love. That's quite selfish.

I don't want these things to happen. I want them to get better. I do love people... not because I should, but because I've learned to understand them instead of condemning them.

Once you realize that you can justify and forgive yourself just about anything. You'll learn to forgive other for just about anything. In reality, we are all in the same boat.

So, unless we really love people unconditionally. We can't possibly love God. If we make our understanding of prophecy to be above that... expect a rooster to crow, and a waking realization that perhaps our arrogance got hold of us a bit more than what we seen it to do.

[12tribes]

Quote:

I see your point, fccool. While I still believe in the year/day principle, I am glad to see possible questions that might occur to someone I would be sharing prophecy with.

Once again, I respect anyone who holds this belief. I don't believe that it's completely without any support. I just give my reasons why I don't think that God would be so confusing as to have us break down months and years into days, and then re-assemble them back into prophetic years. If 3.5 years really means 1260 years, then what can we say about a 1000? What can we say about a week, an hour or a day? How can we ever be certain when day is a day, and year is a year?

Once again, I believe that the issue here is a need, and perhaps a want for these to be more than literal, because of already preconceived interpretation of other events. Therefore, that preconception ends up interpreting the dates, and not the other way around.

The expressions “time, times and the dividing of time”, “42 months”, “1260 days”, and “70 weeks”, are very peculiar. They could have been expressed in literal language but instead they are given a symbolic flavor. Notice, for example, that Luke 4:25 and James 5:17 refer to the period when there was no rain in the days of Elijah as “three years and six months”. This is the normal way of expressing time (see also, Acts 18:11; II Samuel 2:11; I Samuel 27:7).It is significant that every measurement of time in prophecy is given a symbolic flavor: hour (Revelation 17:12; 9:13), day (Revelation 12:6), week (Daniel 9:24-27), month (Revelation 13:5), year (Daniel 7:25). It is also significant that non-apocalyptic prophecies express time in literal language: 70 years (Jeremiah 25:11-12), 400 years (Genesis 15:13-15), 120 years (Genesis 6:3) with literal persons performing literal actions!

[teresaq]

fccool, I fully agree with the points you bring up in #467698. Knowing prophecy is secondary to being Christlike.

We need to get the full meaning of these two passages, which also happen to be "prophecy",

Quote:

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Quote:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God's people are not being called out of Babylon so that they can end up with Jesus standing outside the door of their heart knocking to get in.

Could I have permission to repost some of your points in my forum?

[teresaq]

I appreciate this, especially as it is devoid of derogatory remarks, so I will read it.

I think it is a start on a study of how "time" is used in the bible but not complete. Its a "keeper" for me. I appreciate it and would like to repost it in my forum with your permission.

Quote:

I see your point, fccool. While I still believe in the year/day principle, I am glad to see possible questions that might occur to someone I would be sharing prophecy with.

The expressions “time, times and the dividing of time”, “42 months”, “1260 days”, and “70 weeks”, are very peculiar. They could have been expressed in literal language but instead they are given a symbolic flavor. Notice, for example, that Luke 4:25 and James 5:17 refer to the period when there was no rain in the days of Elijah as “three years and six months”. This is the normal way of expressing time (see also, Acts 18:11; II Samuel 2:11; I Samuel 27:7).It is significant that every measurement of time in prophecy is given a symbolic flavor: hour (Revelation 17:12; 9:13), day (Revelation 12:6), week (Daniel 9:24-27), month (Revelation 13:5), year (Daniel 7:25). It is also significant that non-apocalyptic prophecies express time in literal language: 70 years (Jeremiah 25:11-12), 400 years (Genesis 15:13-15), 120 years (Genesis 6:3) with literal persons performing literal actions!

[fccool]

I appreciate you answering my question directly. It's a good point, and that's why I don't completely dismiss the interpretation as a possibility. Yet, we have to likewise look at the trends and the possibilities outside of such interpretation given certain religious climate of the world.

Overall, the world is sliding into secularism. No matter which religion you can pick, overall, we can see a tendency to look at it as discipline practice, rather than something real implications. All of that happened within the past century and a half. We have entire nations such as China and Russia being secularized.

Christians are being painted as loons, and Muslims are being painted as extreme.

Yet,in Adventism world this reality is ignored because there's a need to show that the view is right. Therefore all of this secularization is ignored, and instead we turn all eyes on obscure events that don't really weight heavily and are largely ignored by the world today.

I play this parallel with Harold Camping not as a point of insult. I have a great degree of empathy for the entire group, because many of them turned out to be victims of their own belief system that they simply refuse to reconsider in light of external information coming in.

When Harold was asked, "What will you do if Christ does not come back. What are your plans for May 22?". His answer was simply that it's outside of the realm of possibility. Christ will come back, and there's no plan for 22 because it will happen. There was no doubt in his mind.

So, the question that I constantly ask myself is ... What happens if there's no universal Sunday Law, and yet we see similar situation unfolding that demands our attention as Christians to recognize it? What will Adventists do if indeed their interpretations were incorrect?

It's unfortunate, but in minds of many, they are so set on externals: their dogma being correct to the dot, that E.G.White is the prophet of God, that the eschatology is right. And it ends up taking the attention away from what it means to be a Christian in the first place. It shifts the perspective from love that we supposed to understand, learn and live out ... to all of these external things that only work through love. Things like law, Sabbath, diet, Prophecy.

I am repeating myself, but I think we should simplify things a bit and get back to basics. Things that happen will happen. These are outside of our control. I don't believe it's our responsibility to force them in any shape or form to be viewed as "correct and better", the only "correct and better" are the basics from which everything else is emanates. I think that's what should be on the front of our presentation, and not the "questionable matters".

[miz3]

Quote:

In other words, Ellen White stretches what the Lord showed and revealed to her in vision.

I'm going to tell you that I don't know. I can only go by veracity of certain information and reasoning. If that information conflicts with both Biblical record, and history, then it would be dishonest to ram it through solely based on "You are rejecting the prophet of the Lord".

Honesty works in opposite way that you are presenting it to be.

Quote:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Quote:

Once again, before you come in here discussing this, I really recommend you take out time to read Heidi Heik's 320+ page book entitled "AD 538 Source Book". There is much more than meets the eye.

I've read a lot of material on the subject. Both pro and con. I believe that you have not read enough "con" material in order to adequately answer the questions that I've had.

Quote:

There are MANY MANY ingredients to the 538 A.D. date. Not just the Sunday Law. When combining ALL the many elements that occurred in 538 A.D., it makes this date stand out far superior to all the rest.

This date was not recognized to be such before 19th century. This day was derived from backtracking from 1798 date that was thought to be of some significance by theologians who thought that they were living through the end times and that Christ was coming back in their lifetime.

Until that day the year 538 was hardly even mentioned by anyone in History of protestantism as commencement of anything.

Allow me to demonstrate an example with Israel.

1) The date 1948 was an important date in history of Israel and Jews worldwide.

2) Let's apply 1260 year prophecy to it! 1948 - 1260 = 688. Wow! There must be something significant about that date?! Let's search history and find out?

3) A Dome of Rock, which is the sacred holy site of Muslims was built in 688. And the inscription dated back to 688 reads:

“…O People of the Book!

Don’t be excessive in the name of your faith!

Do not say things about God but the truth!

The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, is indeed a messenger of God:

The Almighty extended a word to Mary,

and a spirit too.

So believe in God and all the messengers,

and stop talking about a Trinity.

Cease in your own best interests!

Verily God is the God of unity.

Lord Almighty! That God would beget a child?

Either in the Heavens or on the Earth?...”

Sounds like a threat of persecution to me. And from then on Muslims went on persecuting Jews and Christians while blaspheming God, until it was wounded in 1948

None of that is correct, obviously. I'm just finding what I was looking for! That's a well-known phenomenon in human psychology. If you look for some connection, the you'll find it. That's how conspiracy theories form, and some of these are fairly outrageous.

For example. In order to fit the papacy into the 666 idea, the geomatria is employed (why????? that's a pagan idea) to calculate the number of a fairly obscure title that's used in Donation of Constantine, which is considered to a forge by scholars worldwide. Yet, the myths went as far as to say that it was inscribed on Papal Miter (Tiara), which was actually taught by many SDA pastors and leaders. Many still hold to this day that this is true, which it is not.

Why was that title invoked? To find some way of calculating 666 with Papacy in the middle of it. The Papacy was already declared to be the beast before the number was even calculated ... so the mystery of the number is irrelevant! That's a very honest approach

Likewise, with the date of 1798... the protestants already KNEW that Papacy was the beast. They only needed some evidence to fit that view into the prophecy somehow.

But, let's say that it did not work, and there nothing significant happened in 538. Do you really think that some other interpretation with Papacy in the middle of it would not be found? When you work backwards, then you'll always find a way to construct a timeline that "fits".

I believe that if we are to search the truth and teach the world about Christ, then it has to be done in honest manner, without exaggeration or forcing facts and history.

I respect your beliefs. I understand why you hold them. I certainly don't dismiss a possibility. The problem becomes with teaching this possibility as incontrovertible fact by searching for obscure things and then making them into important dates and facts. Third Synod of Orleans, and Vicarius Filei Dei type of things.

If you truly believe that E.G. White's prophetic confirmation is enough, then why not simply start with "E.G. White said that..." ? I think that you and other SDA scholars avoid that, because they value objectivity in terms of Biblical prophecy and certain facts.

Yet, throwing the "I doubt your honesty because you reject E.G.White" is not a very scholarly approach this issue. It attacks me personally, instead of focusing on the argument. And frankly, it can be interpreted as a last-resort defense when the evidence fails to speak for itself.

MEGA MEGA DITTOS!

EXTREMELY WELL DONE!

[Lysimachus]

I think I'll start with the #1 issue that underlines all of the prophetic timelines, and yet it's seldomly dissected or questioned.

DAY FOR A YEAR PRINCIPLE.

What are reasons that Adventists believe that prophetic day equals one year?

1) Numbers 14:34 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years….after the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.

2) Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

A couple of observations. First and foremost, the immediate context of both deals with consequences and allotment of certain degree of punishment. So, each year is assigned as a punishment for 1 day of disobedience or rebellion.

Could God be teaching certain principle through this, I certainly think it's a possibility. Can we take this possibility and claim it to be the only possible and certain "truth" based on deducing of our own that it can't possibly refer to anything else? I would beg to differ.

Now, generally the support is given in form of a logic deductions:

a) All of the three periods - time, time and half of times - 42 months - and 1260 days refer to the same period of time.

That literal meaning would not be long enough for anything to transpire for anyone, given certain prophetic constraints.

c) Therefore it must be years, and not days.

[teresaq]

I play this parallel with Harold Camping not as a point of insult. I have a great degree of empathy for the entire group, because many of them turned out to be victims of their own belief system that they simply refuse to reconsider in light of external information coming in.

When Harold was asked, "What will you do if Christ does not come back. What are your plans for May 22?". His answer was simply that it's outside of the realm of possibility. Christ will come back, and there's no plan for 22 because it will happen. There was no doubt in his mind.

HC would tell the callers-in who disagreed with him that they did not believe in the bible because it was straight from the bible. He was not interested in hearing anything that would prove him wrong and cut callers off with that little button he held in his hand off-screen.

off-topic I would get so upset with the SDAs who called in about the Sabbath, first because they were so angry or cold therefore received no sympathy from the audience...

Second, because they had not spent time in prayer with some group of people before engaging with the enemy behind the scenes.

[miz3]

Quote:

I see your point, fccool. While I still believe in the year/day principle, I am glad to see possible questions that might occur to someone I would be sharing prophecy with.

Once again, I respect anyone who holds this belief. I don't believe that it's completely without any support. I just give my reasons why I don't think that God would be so confusing as to have us break down months and years into days, and then re-assemble them back into prophetic years. If 3.5 years really means 1260 years, then what can we say about a 1000? What can we say about a week, an hour or a day? How can we ever be certain when day is a day, and year is a year?

If He says to you, I'll come back tomorrow, would you second guess whether he meant next year?

I believe that the issue here is a need, and perhaps a want for these to be more than literal, because of already preconceived interpretation of other events. Therefore, that preconception ends up interpreting the dates, and not the other way around.

Yet, I don't believe that this is what prophecy is for.

For example, Christ gave the certain prophecy that Peter would deny him three times before rooster crows. It was not given in order for Peter to find a way to recognize this event and to identify certain people. Neither it was given to him so he cold prevent it, although perhaps he could if he was not so arrogant as to think that there's no possible way.

It was given to him so he could recognize post-facto that arrogant approach to belief results in hypocrisy. He thought that he was honest and "spiritual", yet in fact he was only playing a game, and wearing a mask. Christ knew his response. He likewise knew what's going to happen when he realized his weakness and need for humility. So, the prophecy was given to him as a lesson.

Virtually all of the prophecy is such. It's given in a manner that made people realize certain aspects of their character. It's all a big lesson.

If we approach this lesson as "we-know-it-all", then we can certainly expect that sad realization when the rooster does crow.

In a way, I do see many Adventists to be like Peter, saying "Not me God! I keep your law! I can see that Pope is the antichrist! I will not take that mark no matter what, and I'll make sure to warn the whole world".

In fact the arrogance somewhat get to the point that we as a church equate ourselves with the angel of God who proclaims the last message. I don't believe it's our job.

We need to get back to the simplicity of the message and understanding, which is love. It's only through love that everything falls into place and makes sense. The prophecy is conditional. It may or may not come to be. Let's say that there is in fact a universal change for the better. Adventists and other would be so angry that they would call God a liar and grow resentment... sort of like Jonah did.

"But, God, you said that things are going to get worse for all of us, and especially the evil people."

And that's what I end up hearing. When something bad happens "Come Lord Jesus. The end is near". It's sort of a secret desire for things finally break down so that Jesus would finally come back. That's not love. That's quite selfish.

I don't want these things to happen. I want them to get better. I do love people... not because I should, but because I've learned to understand them instead of condemning them.

Once you realize that you can justify and forgive yourself just about anything. You'll learn to forgive other for just about anything. In reality, we are all in the same boat.

So, unless we really love people unconditionally. We can't possibly love God. If we make our understanding of prophecy to be above that... expect a rooster to crow, and a waking realization that perhaps our arrogance got hold of us a bit more than what we seen it to do.

DITTOS!

SDA are most definitely extremely arrogant! Lysimachus seems to prove that point!

[Lysimachus]

Going back to Lysimachus' argument about Solar Years vs Lunar Years and problems with fitting these into these number of days... i.e. 1:

The 3 1/2 "times" or years of Dan 12 seems to be identical with the 3 1/2 "times" of Rev 12:14, which in turn appears to be identical with the 42 months of Rev 11:2 and the 1,260 days of Rev 11:3; 12:6. It seems that all these prophetic time periods use a month of 30 days. Thus, 3 1/2 years = 3 1/2 x 12, or 42 months = 42 x 30, or 1,260 days.

Now, some may object by saying that the problem is that 30 day months were Babylonian calendar. Yet, let's discuss the Jewish one for a minute.

Key factors in the Jewish calendar

When the Jewish calendar is analyzed, it is found that there are three very special times each year. These are the three times that the men of Israel were commanded to appear before the Lord.

The feast of unleavened bread, following the Passover, was a 7-day period in early spring. The feast of harvest, or first fruits, which the NT calls "Pentecost", came 49 days (seven weeks), or the 50th day (hence "Pente-cost"), after the day following Passover approximately 45 days after the end of the feast of unleavened bread.

The calendar date was usually between Sivan 3 and Sivan 5. The small discrepancies here arise because sometimes Jewish months were 29 days long and sometimes they were 30, and sometimes days were counted inclusively (ie counting the beginning and ending days) and sometimes they were counted exclusively (ie not counting the beginning and ending days).

Finally, the third time of general gathering came in early fall. This was a 21-day period commencing with the Feast of Trumpets, continuing on to the Day of Atonement, and culminating in the Feast of Ingathering, or Tabernacles.

The seven annual holidays, called "holy convocations", all fall within these three times. They are:

1) Abib 14 = Passover;

2) Abib 21 = The last day of Feast of Unleavened Bread;

3) Sivan 3,4, or 5 = Pentecost; Feast of Firstfruits;

4) Ethanim 1 = Feast of Trumpets (also called Rosh Hashanah: New Years Day);

5) Ethanim 10 = Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur);

6) Ethanim 15 = The first day of Feast of Tabernacles;

7) Ethanim 21 = The last day of Feast of Tabernacles.

Many significant events in Israel's Bible history, far too numerous to list here, occurred on these special days. Other days in the Jews' annual cycle were relatively unimportant.

Relevant to this discussion are the following points:

1) From Abib 21 (the last day of the Passover "cluster") to Ethanim 21 (the last day of the Tabernacles "cluster") is exactly 1/2 year.

2) From Ethanim 21 to Abib 21 is, of course, exactly 1/2 year also.

3) Thus, a time period that begins with either Abib 21 or Ethanim 21, and runs precisely 3 1/2 years, will end on the other of the two.

4) A time period beginning Ethanim 21 and ending Abib 21, with another 45 days (1,335 less 1,290) added on, would climax at the third significant date in the Jewish calendar (Sivan 3, 4, or 5) -- Pentecost.

5) A 30-day period is the difference between the 1,290 days and the 1,260 days.

The Jews generally added 13th month to their calendar every third year or so. This was done to keep their calendar in line with the seasons, since their months were either 29 or 30 days, and thus their ordinary year was only about 354 days. 11 1/4 days added up each year, so that every third year (or more precisely, 7 years out of every 19) an extra month was needed. So, assuming that a 3-year period would necessitate one month, we have the reason why 3 1/2 years of 30-day months (ie 1,260 days) becomes 1,290 days -- the addition of precisely one month. Using a 30-day model, then, there are exactly 1,290 days from the end of the Tabernacles "cluster" of holy days (including Yom Kippur and the week-long Feast of Tabernacles) to the end of the Passover "cluster" of holy days (including the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread) 3 1/2 years later. And another 45 days (for a total of 1,335) brings us to the final "holy convocation" day, and the third "general assembly" of the year -- Pentecost.

So, you have to ask yourself, "Why these numbers", and the answers is plainly shown in certain feast days of Israel, which as we remember were a foreshadowing of something to come. And perhaps something to come does revolve around that which was foreshadowed. And perhaps it has much to do with those days being literal, and not day-for-year, in which any such connection does not make any sense and becomes simply arbitrary number of years... just because.

I'm not seeing much strength in your argument here.

The reasons I listed for why we must force the day-year principle are plain enough. Sure there are shadowy reasons intrinsically tied in these literal days.

But you wish to make types go back to types. Literal always go back to Literal. And Local always go back to Local. (All this is premillennial of course, as things go back to Literal after the Millennium again)

That's not how we do things. Type points forward to Antitype. Literal always points forward to Spiritual. Local always points forward to Global.

We do not subscribe to the infamous gap planted by the Jesuits, by which D. S. Farris and Mike Warren have profoundly documented in their radio shows and documentation at www.HearingTheTruth.org

There is much debate in Adventism concerning Daniel 12. Some people believe the time, times, and dividing of time is exclusively future, whereas the time span in Daniel 7 belongs to the Dark Ages. I am not dogmatic either way about this, although I emphasize this only to show that this cannot be determined in stone that there can be no future application (I believe in dual fulfillments) to the 1260, 1290, 1335.

[Lysimachus]

Here are some outstanding articles from Bob Pickle. He shows unequivocally how it is impossible to force 69 prophetic lunar years (or a total o 173,880 days) between mark 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D. He also deals with Hoehner's calculations as well besides Anderson's. I deal with all of the following articles extensively in my The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 - Vindicating the Historical-Messianic Computation article.

1. "An Examination of Anderson's Chronological Errors Regarding Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks." Dispensational eschatology, as portrayed on Left Behind, depends on an adequate explanation of the first 69 weeks. Anderson is often quoted, and yet his theories are contradicted by plain facts about calendars and history.

2. “Dr. Harold Hohner’s Refinements of Ande...First 69 Weeks” - Acknowledges the four improvements over Anderson that Dr. Hoehner has provided. Examines the chronological difficulties still present in his calculations of Daniel 9's 70 weeks, and suggests an alternative interpretation unencumbered by such difficulties.

3. “When Were the Sabbatical Years?” - Re-examines Ben Zion Wacholder's evidence for his sabbatical dates, and concludes that the standard position was correct after all. Using Josephus, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, ancient inscriptions and documents, the Talmud, and Maimonides, when the sabbatical years were can be determined. And this all has a bearing on Daniel 9's 70 weeks.

[EDIT: Here are a couple more great sections, establishing why the 70 weeks can only be Solar:]

1. Ignores the Sabbatical Cycle

2. Ignores the Sabbatical Cycle

Thus we see, that in order to be consistent, we must employ Solar Years to the 42 months.

The concept is simple:

"days of years"

"weeks of years"

"months of years"

Regardless of which way you go.

[Guest]

Now that's a lot of information!

[miz3]

"Revelation 9:15

(15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Now here is a time prophecy right out of the Book of Revelation.

Using the year/day thing we get:

1hour = 1week

1day = 1year

1month= 30years

1year = 365years

TOTAL PROPHETIC TIME = 396 YEARS AND 1 WEEK!

When did the 396 yrs and one week begin and when do they end!?

Now if I should have used 360 years = 1 prophetic year then my total changes to be 391 years and one week! The question still stands!

I am sure Lysimachus knows the answer but others are free to step in also!

[teresaq]

She also said, below, and so many more like it, which is why I will not read your sources if they are of the same spirit as the bit I read from Bohr in your post. I do not wish to be molded after that order in trying to proclaim the truth.

Quote:

I feel like fleeing from the place lest I receive the mold of those who cannot candidly investigate the doctrines of the Bible. Those who cannot impartially examine the evidences of a position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God’s cause. What we need is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Without this, we are no more fitted to go forth to the world than were the disciples after the crucifixion of their Lord. Jesus knew their destitution, and told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they should be endowed with power from on high. Every teacher must be a learner, that his eyes may be anointed to see the evidences of the advancing truth of God. The beams of the Sun of Righteousness must shine into his own heart if he would impart light to others. {1888 534.3}

No one is able to explain the Scriptures without the aid of the Holy Spirit. But when you take up the word of God with a humble, teachable heart, the angels of God will be by your side to impress you with evidences of the truth. When the Spirit of God rests upon you, there will be no feeling of envy or jealousy in examining another’s position; there will be no spirit of accusation and criticism, such as Satan inspired in the hearts of the Jewish leaders against Christ. As Christ said to Nicodemus, so I say to you, “Ye must be born again.” “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” You must have the divine mold before you can discern the sacred claims of the truth. Unless the teacher is a learner in the school of Christ, he is not fitted to teach others. {1888 534.4}

And what created all this stirring up of human passions which was bitterness of spirit, because some of their brethren had ventured to entertain some ideas contrary to the ideas that some others of their brethren had entertained, which were thought from their understanding to be inroads upon ancient doctrines? {1888 311.3}...

There have been, I was informed, misunderstandings not only of the testimonies, but of the Bible itself. Men have exalted themselves and esteemed themselves too highly, which leads to the denouncing of others and passing judgment upon their brethren. Envy, jealousy, evilspeaking, evil surmising, judging one another, has been considered a special gift given of God in discernment, when it savors more of the spirit of the great accuser who accused the brethren before God day and night. There has been a spirit of Phariseeism, a hard, unsympathetic spirit towards the erring, a withdrawing from some and leaving them in discouragement, which is leaving the lost sheep to perish in the wilderness. There has been a placing of men where God alone should be. {1888 312.3}

....

Fccool, there are so many layers and solid layers of material that Adventism is built upon, and you still have MOUNTAINS to go through to realize just how solid our platform is.

Your disbelief in the Testimonies, and your disbelief in solid foundations that have made Adventism will overcome in the final days when we are brought before courts and trials--that is, if you do not make up your mind to overcome your disbeliefs now, and choose NOW with a decided stand to give up your cherished doubts concerning our Adventist pillars. It would be the BEST and most WISE move you ever made in your life. This I'm totally persuaded of.

It's time to LAY DOWN your doubts, and take up this message with great zeal and determination!

The Three Angel's Messages must go to the WHOLE WORLD, and those who are on shaky ground concerning our prophetic pillars will not be able to give the trumpet a certain sound. To let go of our Historicist pillars is to reject the offer from the Lord to bear the Loud Cry of the Third Angel to God's perishing world.

You will NEVER win souls with the diluted doctrines you have allowed yourself to succumb to. Either take a decided stand with us, or give up Adventism entirely and go flop on the floor like a fish on dry land with the Pentcostals.

Your so called "honest analysis and observation" is really just a cover-up to not have to just accept what is given, and take it simply. William Miller did not work on this principle, where you evaluate to death the phraseology and wording until you reach the point where you end up philosophizing your way out of ascertaining a SIMPLE concept in a text. Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34 is PLAIN ENOUGH. But when you start dissecting these verses, you are falling into the Devil's trap of losing what the Holy Spirit might otherwise be trying to show you were you a humble man that knew nothing about theology, and to him the day-year principle made all the sense in the world.

It's time to take a decided stand. There is no in-between. The three major contenders in the Christian war are the following:

1. Catholicism (Beast)

2. Dispensationalism (False Prophet)

3. Adventism (God's Remnant Bride)

It's either get in or get out. We have NO TIME TO LOSE! We're MOVING FORWARD, with or WITHOUT you.

By rejecting the day-year principle, and the 1260 years of Papal dominance, you are sympathizing with not only the atrocities committed by Rome, but you are also cuddling up to the venomous deception of Zionism and the New World Order that is honed in by that Satanic Jesuit construct known as Dispensational Futurism.

[teresaq]

Perhaps it should be suggested to Pastor Bohr and company that they go back and read the articles of the pioneers when they met controverted points of others. There was an altogether different spirit and approach used. Maybe that was part of the reason EW said their writings should be reprinted and read.

[Lysimachus]

teresaq,

Sister White's counsels above are concerning more minor details of investigation. She is not referring to the pillars of our faith.

She said unequivocally:

Quote:

In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. . . . Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?--Review and Herald, May 25, 1905. {Ev 610.3}

Fccool wants to throw the whole foundation out the window, such as the year-day principle and the 1260 years of Papal supremacy. He's not just questioning details on the structure. He's questioning the entire platform for which Ellen White said not one pin should be removed.

[teresaq]

I'm not sure we are reading her counsel the same way. I am not sure what you read her to say in the paragraphs I posted.

teresaq,

Sister White's counsels above are concerning more minor details of investigation. She is not referring to the pillars of our faith.

....

Fccool wants to throw the whole foundation out the window, such as the year-day principle and the 1260 years of Papal supremacy. He's not just questioning details on the structure. He's questioning the entire platform for which Ellen White said not one pin should be removed.

[Lysimachus]

teresaq,

Please Teresa. All those who were investigating doctrines and not doing it candidly, and were arguing with one another at Minneapolis in 1888 were NOT ARGUING over the foundations! They were arguing about the book of Galatians, Alamanni vs. Huns, and Righteousness by Faith! They were arguing over ADVANCED POINTS OF CONTENTION.

They were not discussing the BASIC foundations that were LONG established!