Been reading the Testimonies....

[John317]

...John, I can now clearly see WHY you moved this thread from the Townhall, I never thought it would get into such details and controversy! It was just a simple thread, a short testimony, or so I thought...

LOL. Strange things can happen like this on the Forum.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

...When Jones and Waggoner received counsel they did not appreciate, it is my understanding they left the Adventist body of believers. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Jones and Waggoner both eventually left the SDA church. They both connected with Dr. Kellogg and came under his influence. Waggoner in particular adopted some false teachings related to pantheisitic-type thinking. You can see evidence of this in the original of his book on Galatians, published 1900. (The edited editions won't show this evidence.)

Waggoner also got involved in some ideas about "free love" so that while in England, he became romantically involved with another woman. Waggoner also rejected the Investigative Judgment. He claimed near the end of his life that he had never accepted it.

Both men unfortunately rejected the counsels of Ellen White.

Are you inferring that both Jones and Waggoner are lost?

[John317]

Both Jones and Waggoner humbly accepted counsel from Ellen White until they drifted into error.

Yes, until....

That's exactly my point: they both got to a time where they did not follow the counsels of the Spirit of prophecy.

Waggoner failed to follow them while in England and later when connected with J.H. Kellogg.

Jones failed to follow them when in Battle Creek. Jones helped Kellogg edit and re-publish The Living Temple.

By the way, none of this should be construed to mean that they will be eternally lost. No one can know this.

Let's look at some of the counsels of Ellen White:

Quote:

(Written October 2, 1903, from "Elmshaven," Sanitarium, California, to Dr. Ellet J. Waggoner. Portions of this manuscript appear in Manuscript Release No. 201 and in Through Crisis to Victory.)

I beseech you by the mercy of God to be on your guard. To you and to other ministers and teachers the Lord says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith." The world is full of speculation and false theories regarding the nature and character of God. The enemy of our souls is earnestly at work to introduce among the Lord's people pleasing speculation and incorrect views regarding the personality of God. {21MR 171.1}

The fables that are being accepted and taught by some of our medical writers are not to be accepted as the truth of God. It will soon be discerned that they originate with the great apostate, who works as an angel of light, influencing minds by a deception so subtle that he would deceive, if possible, the very elect. {21MR 171.2}

I am authorized to say to you that some of the sentiments regarding the personality of God, as found in the book Living Temple, are opposed to the truths revealed in the Word of God. Yet many physicians and teachers are inclined to accept these fanciful ideas of God. To these I say, Awake to a sense of your danger. {21MR 171.3}

It has been presented to me that Satan is working in ways that man does not expect. At times he puts on the robes of an angel of light, and many receive him as such a being. If we will link ourselves closely with Christ, Satan will have no power to overcome us. As we draw near to God, He draws near to us and lifts up a standard for us against the enemy. {21MR 171.4}

I have been shown that some, even of those who are teachers of the Word of God, are in great danger of being overcome. I saw some linking their arms in the arm of Satan, while he talked most earnestly with them, telling them of the many things that needed to be changed in the church. Afterward his words were repeated by those to whom he had talked. They were delighted with what seemed to them to be clearer perception and better methods of working. {21MR 171.5}

I say to all, Be on your guard, for as an angel of light Satan is walking in every assembly of Christian workers, and in every church, trying to win the members to his side. I am bidden to give to the people of God the warning, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked." {21MR 171.6}

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? To take the works of God, and represent them to be God, is a fearful misrepresentation. This misrepresentation of God I was called upon to oppose at the beginning of my work, when the Lord sent me forth to proclaim the message that He should give me to speak. {21MR 172.1}

My labors on this line began when I was seventeen years old, and since then I have been over the ground again and again. Case after case has been presented to me, and the power of God has rested on me as I have stood before large assemblies and called out the names of those who were entertaining false views, telling them where such views would lead them if they did not change. {21MR 172.2}

I have seen the results of these fanciful views of God in apostasy, spiritualism, free-lovism. The free-love tendencies of these teachings were so concealed that it was difficult to present them in their real character. Until the Lord presented it to me I knew not what to call it, but I was instructed to call it unholy spiritual love. {21MR 172.3}

I am warned that we are not to talk of God as He is spoken of in Living Temple. The sentiments there expressed are a dishonor to His greatness and His majesty. God forbid that our ministers should entertain these ideas. For myself, I take my stand firmly against them. And I entreat you to accept the message that I bear to you. I ask you to arouse to your danger. Who by searching can find out God? {21MR 172.4}

The theory that He is an essence, pervading everything, is one of Satan's most subtle devices. I warn you to beware of being led to accept theories leading to any such view. I tell you, my brother, that the most spiritual-minded Christians are liable to be deceived by these beautiful, seducing, flattering theories. But in the place of honoring God, these theories, in the minds of those who receive them, bring Him down to a low level, where He is nothingness. {21MR 172.5}

We have a compassionate God, but He will not be trifled with. He will not be dishonored, and make no sign. May the danger into which some of our teachers have fallen lead them to guard their feet carefully, that they shall not wander again upon Satan's ground. Let them walk humbly with God. {21MR 172.6}

It is those who have had the most light that Satan seeks the most assiduously to ensnare. He knows that if he can deceive them, they can, under his control, clothe sin with the garments of righteousness, and lead many astray. God grant that our teachers may see and understand this, their great danger, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of Satan, and put forth redoubled efforts to save others who are exposed. {21MR 172.7}

My brother, do not try to reason in regard to the errors that the enemy presents. If you will receive the testimony of the Lord, reading His Word with a teachable heart, and refusing to put Scripture on the side of error to maintain falsehood, you will believe that I speak the truth, as a messenger of God. But if you allow the author of error to get between you and the Word, your mind will bear his impress. {21MR 173.1}

If you will believe the message that I bear you, you will see your danger. You can then put on the gospel shoes and walk in the pathway of truth, following the true Shepherd, who knows His sheep by name and calls them to follow Him. {21MR 173.2}

There is a strain of spiritualism coming in among our people, and it will undermine the faith of those who give place to it, leading them to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. I have seen the arch-deceiver tempting several of our ministers, teachers, and medical workers, presenting fanciful theories to them in a most subtle and charming manner, to wean their affection from those whom they should love and cherish. He shows them charming pictures of women whom they have found congenial, suggesting that in the future life they will be united to the one who is so congenial and whom they will ever love throughout the ages of eternity. {21MR 173.3}

My message to our teachers is, If you hold such views you need to be taught the first principles of the truth. You need to stand where you know that you are not departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. When you break the spell that is upon you, and become teachable, you will escape from Satan's snare. Through humility and reconversion you will again be adopted into the family of God. {21MR 173.4}

To all who are thus tempted I would say, I want to see you standing free before God. I want to see you sound in the faith, holding the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Leave every false issue alone. We cannot do our seed-sowing too carefully, for we are sowing for eternity.--Letter 230, 1903.

....Our Counsellor then laid His hands on the shoulders of Elders A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner, and said, "You are confused. You are in the mist and fog. You have need of the heavenly anointing." {21MR 176.3}

To Brother Jones He said, "Why have you permitted your mind to be worked as it has been? I warned you not to permit this." He said to Brother Waggoner, "Leave the place where you now are, and walk in the path I have pointed out. Living Temple is full of seductive sentiments which, if received, will tear down the foundations of your faith and weaken your perceptions of truth and righteousness." {21MR 176.4}

Addressing them both He said, "There is a work for both of you to do. Your minds need to be thoroughly renewed. Your faith is to rest on a high, holy, substantial foundation. God has a work for you to do in sounding the last message of warning to the world. Turn away from scientific theories. What is the chaff to the wheat?" {21MR 176.5}

The Speaker was represented to me as standing on a high platform. To this platform He raised both men, and placed one at His right hand and the other at His left. Then He said: "The sentiments that you have received in harmony with the special theories presented in the book Living Temple, are not pure truth. There is a commingling of truth and error, and it will be difficult for you to single out the true from the false, to distinguish between the threads of truth and the threads of error. My Word is spirit and life. [John 6:35, 47, 51, 53, 54, quoted.] {21MR 176.6}

"Cast out of your minds the sophistries that you have been receiving. God would have your minds cleansed from these theories. Hold fast the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Warn others to let spiritualistic sophistries alone. Preach the Word as you have done in the past, and My Spirit will be with you. Holy angels will accompany you if you will follow in the way that God has marked out. {21MR 176.7}

"Separate entirely from the bewitching, misleading sentiments that run through Living Temple. You are to be My witnesses. You are to declare My word. [John 6:57, 63, quoted.] There is a work for you to do, but you must empty your minds of all fanciful presentations, and give the warning message. In the place of froth and nothingness you may have the living water that Christ promises to give to all who come to Him." {21MR 177.1}

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

As someone else has commented I believe how they were treated by the brethern played a large part in it...but we do not learn from the past. We turn around and do the same thing.

Yes, they were both mistreated. We can have great sympathy for them because of this. Yet that doesn't excuse what they did. James White was also often mistreated. So was Ellen White, J.H. Kellogg and W. W. Prescott and a host of others.

[John317]

Are you inferring that both Jones and Waggoner are lost?

Where do you believe I have inferred that we can know such a thing?

See the first part of the post just previous to this one.

[wayfinder]

The following excerpt is taken from a long letter A. T. Jones wrote to Ellen White. There is no record that Ellen White ever responded to this letter. You can see that Elder Jones questions her "prophetic gift" because of this incident.

Here is where the excerpt begins:

And will the Judgment vindicate as fair, true and Christian, the public use of Dr. Stewart's letter to you, with the impression that it was a willful attack upon you and your writings, while concealing the fact made perfectly plain in Dr. Stewart's letter itself, that it was only and altogether in response to the call that you had made in the name of the Lord, which call itself was copied in the very letter of Dr. Stewart's that was being used? And then the public use of his letter has so advertised it that there was such a call for it that another man published it, then again Dr. Stewart was charged with attacking the Testimonies and warring on you. Will the Judgment of God vindicate as the righteousness of God such dealings as that? Can anybody who knows God or has any respect for Him, believe of Him that He would sanction any such procedure as all this?

Thus the whole case as your communication calling for the writing out of doubts and perplexities concerning your writings, as that case has been worked out, requires that we shall think of God things that are impossible.

Now please let me say a word on Gods behalf: In your communication of May 30th, 1906, calling upon certain men by name to place upon paper the statement of the difficulties that perplexed their minds, you wrote the following words:

"In the visions of the night ----- I was directed by the Lord to request them and any others who have perplexities and grievous things in their minds regarding the Testimonies that I have borne, to specify what their objections and criticisms are. The Lord will help me to answer these objections, and to make plain that which seems intricate .... Let it all be written out."

After having received in answer to that call what some brethren had honestly written, you wrote under date of June 3rd, 1906 the following words:

"I had a vision in which I was speaking before a large company, where many questions were asked concerning my work and writings. I was directed by a messenger from heaven not to take the burden of picking up and answering all the sayings and doubts that are being put into many minds."

Both of these communications profess to be as from God. As representing God, therefore, they present the impossible situation as to God, in truth, that God asked certain men by name that they put in writing a statement of all their difficulties, etc., with the promise of an answer, and then, after He got the statement, refused to answer.

I repeat, therefore, that as to God in truth, and to any mind that has ever received the revelation of God, that presents an impossible situation. For no person that knows God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, can ever believe it possible of God that He would call men personally by name to Him, only that they should receive a slap in the face, or to be condemned.

[Guest]

The following excerpt is taken from a long letter A. T. Jones wrote to Ellen White. There is no record that Ellen White ever responded to this letter. You can see that Elder Jones questions her "prophetic gift" because of this incident.

Source please?!

[Guest]

John317,

The good news is that there does seem to be indirect evidence that shows that Waggoner repented near the end of his life:

http://www.1888mpm.org/blog/letter-kept-secret-l-e-froom

http://1888mpm.org/history/letter-clarification-unanswered

Some interesting data there. Oh how wonderful that would be if he did make it, and we can see him in heaven. Especially after knowing how much he was used by God with the 1888 Messages of Righteousness by Faith.

I have also heard there is indirect evidence for A.T. Jones too. It's on that site, but I can't find it right now.

I believe they will both be in heaven.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, there was a brief comment on page two about Jones and Wagonner counseling Sister White about her "proud spirit". The next thing you know, Jones and Wagonner are front and center on the thread. Was that a smooth hijack or what?

One example of how the Testimonies have been such a help to me personally. I was considering buying a second house for a rental/investment property. Then I read about how some people are so focused on gaining material wealth and fixing up their property that they don't take time to work for the Lord. Oh they WILL, as soon as that remodel is done, or that investment starts to pay off. That hit ME like a ton of bricks! Now it's fine if someone wants or needs to do all that, but I don't. I need to get my priorities straight, stop being so focused on this earthly life and consider the life to come. It spoke to MY heart and it was a welcome testimony for where I'm at, thank the Lord for that!

My new plan is to die broke, like Paul, invest wisely and carefully all that I can to the work that needs to be done.

[John317]

You have Jones and Waggoner confused! They're not interchangeable!

You're right they're not interchangeable. But they both eventually rejected the counsels of Ellen White and departed from the church. Waggoner claimed that he never did accept the Investigative Judgment. They both got involved with J.H. Kellogg's false views of the Godhead, contrary to Ellen White's clear testimonies.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

Those men left the church because their message was rejected and they were hated.

No doubt the reaction of people in the church to Jones and Waggoner did play a part in their leaving the SDA church, but their mistreatment is no excuse for them to do what they did. It certainly did not excuse Waggoner's romantic involvement with another woman while he was in England.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I guess the brethren were wrong on that one.

Yes, they were wrong. But then both sides were wrong.

[ClubV12]

Well who WASN'T riled up by the 1888 message of righteouness by faith? The repercussions of that followed for decades (and I'm not sure were done yet). Sister White even told James to keep quiet about his views, even though his views were correct! There was plenty of blame to go around to everyone involved in that mess. And yet, not everybody resigned and left the church over it.

One big thing I took away from that history, is that men, men of God, can hold distinctly different views on a topic and still be in unity. In many cases both views hold some truth, with no clear answer at the time. Unity trumps all in such a case, something we here on this forum would be well advised to consider carefully.

[John317]

Sister White even told James to keep quiet about his views, even though his views were correct!

Do you mean James White?

[ClubV12]

Uh, yeah, I didn't know there were two "James" around at that time. Her husband, James, as I recall her counsel to him was to keep quiet on the matter from the podium. She was having enough trouble with Uriah Smith and some others already.

Kind of like the life of a moderator,,, now that I think about it. :)

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

The following excerpt is taken from a long letter A. T. Jones wrote to Ellen White. There is no record that Ellen White ever responded to this letter. You can see that Elder Jones questions her "prophetic gift" because of this incident.

Source please?!

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lincoln/666/letters/page3.html

[monty]

Thank You Wayfinder for posting this. This letter gives some context. Jones could really write at length with passion when it came from his heart. I imagine his sermons must have been similar. His use of didactic style is impressive considering his level of education. It is interesting to me the same frustrations are being experianced in the SDA churh today from those who covet power and control, at all levels, all the way down to the local congregation.

[Guest]

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lincoln/666/letters/page3.html

Are you serious? All that is, is one of those Ellen White bashing websites. I was hoping you had something a little more uh..credible. But doubted that you would.

[Guest]

One example of how the Testimonies have been such a help to me personally. I was considering buying a second house for a rental/investment property. Then I read about how some people are so focused on gaining material wealth and fixing up their property that they don't take time to work for the Lord. Oh they WILL, as soon as that remodel is done, or that investment starts to pay off. That hit ME like a ton of bricks! Now it's fine if someone wants or needs to do all that, but I don't. I need to get my priorities straight, stop being so focused on this earthly life and consider the life to come. It spoke to MY heart and it was a welcome testimony for where I'm at, thank the Lord for that!

My new plan is to die broke, like Paul, invest wisely and carefully all that I can to the work that needs to be done.

Very admirable stance with the priorities.

[Windsor]

Uh, yeah, I didn't know there were two "James" around at that time. Her husband, James, as I recall her counsel to him was to keep quiet on the matter from the podium. She was having enough trouble with Uriah Smith and some others already.

Kind of like the life of a moderator,,, now that I think about it.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that James White died in 1881.

[wayfinder]

Why, do you think they would have something like that at the White Estate? Are you implying that A T Jones never wrote the letter?

[aldona]

Quote:

Does Sister White tell you when to go to the bathroom too! LOL

"Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste."

- Testimonies Vol.4, p.644.5

[monty]

I do not know if this is a "bashing" website or not. I took the letter at face value on it's own merits.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Are you inferring that both Jones and Waggoner are lost?

Where do you believe I have inferred that we can know such a thing?

See the first part of the post just previous to this one.

I was just askin'!

You answered the question by saying we cannot know whether they are lost or not!

I agree! I just wanted to make sure that this is on the table because when we say things like have been said (negatively) concerning these men some may get the wrong idea about you or I mean!

[miz3]

Thank You Wayfinder for posting this. This letter gives some context. Jones could really write at length with passion when it came from his heart. I imagine his sermons must have been similar. His use of didactic style is impressive considering his level of education. It is interesting to me the same frustrations are being experianced in the SDA churh today from those who covet power and control, at all levels, all the way down to the local congregation.

That highlighted statement is true!

The "Brethren" better deal with it or it will explode out of control in their face!

How they deal with it will determine the future!

[Lysimachus]

You post too much miz3.

[John317]

James White died in 1881, so he didn't have any part in what happened at the GC in 1888 or its aftermath.

Later: Just noticed someone else said this already.

[cheddar]

I was just joking. When Christians are young in the faith they do need a more structured lifestile.

People who have been in the the faith for 10, 20 or 30 years should be mature enough to make their own decisions without having to be told what to do.

Quote:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph. 4:14,13