Buying groceries on sabbath

[Parade Orange]

the book of JUDE verse 9

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[d]

10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

[fccool]

Hmm. Perhaps I'm blind. Help me see where in that verse there's a statement that Moses is in Heaven? I can see Angel and devil disputing over his body (which I would argue is a metaphor for OT Israel, as in the "body of Christ". I could be wrong, but that's besides the point).

[John317]

What matter is what part the Church decides to dwell on, practice and emphasize.

What is your objection to the practice and emphasis of the SDA church and to what it decides to dwell on?

How would you like to see the Church's practice and message changed?

[John317]

Hmm. Perhaps I'm blind. Help me see where in that verse there's a statement that Moses is in Heaven?

Matthew 17:3

And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Moses and Elijah are alive.

Jude 9 is speaking of the time when Satan was attempting to prevent Moses' resurrection. He claimed that Moses didn't have a right to be raised because of his sins. Christ didn't argue with Satan but merely told him to shut up. Satan shut up. That's what happenes, too, when Satan accuses people who have genuinely put their trust in the merits of Christ. Satan's mouth is stopped. Jesus never loses a case.

[BobRyan]

Hmm. Perhaps I'm blind. Help me see where in that verse there's a statement that Moses is in Heaven? I can see Angel and devil disputing over his body (which I would argue is a metaphor for OT Israel, as in the "body of Christ". I could be wrong, but that's besides the point).

Hint: The book Jude is quoting is "The Assumption of Moses"

[cardw]

cardw, do you recall these words?

"Many of you say, 'I have prayed, I have tried, I have struggled, and I do not see that I advance one step.' What is the trouble? Have you not thought you were earning something, that you were by your struggles and works paying the price of your redemption? This you can never do... Take the gift of God... Plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." Signs of the Times, Vol.2, p.488.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

"Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Ibid, 368.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Faith and Works, p.36.

But "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.364; F.W.94.

How is asking god to change my life doing it by my own works?

What do I do with the statement that faith without works is dead when my life shows no evidence of change?

I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

As usual your only response is that I must have done something wrong. You don't read what I have written. You have prejudged me based on your own inability to question your own beliefs.

[cardw]

The point being, most of the people on this board will tell you that to be considered Christian, you have to swallow the "blue pill" of ignorance and embrace the culture of observing tradition that becomes the essence of Christianity. They will ask you to give oaths, to embrace the creeds, to observe religious holidays. They will ask you to become the carbon copy of the ideals that they invent.

I understand why you would be against it, as any thinking individual should be. You say that:

Quote:

If this was what Christianity was all about we wouldn't have near the conflict.

But, you as individual don't have to give into the ideals of "Churchianity" that worships a mental effigy of "god" that they collectively erect. You can be true to yourself, and embrace the eternal principles with possibility that these do have divine origin, and that ignorance or reward is in consequences of adhering to these principles, and not merely the double-jeopardy of burning in hell, or whatever terrible punishment is devised in the life after death, or at the world's end.

One does not have to be Baptist, Methodist, or Adventist... to be a Christian. Christianity follows example of Christ. Modern Christianity, including Adventism, follows the model set forward by Catholic church... as Ironic as it may sound.

I see no need to maintain the label of Christianity. I can understand why it can useful for you. Joseph Campbell makes the observation that one should probably maintain the narrative they grew up with since it contains the archetypes to draw on for spiritual conversation. But he certainly did not see truth constrained by a single narrative.

I, personally, would rather see the authoritative nature of the Bible and all holy writings diminished considerably because they interfere with direct experience. They are way over interpreted and cause us to reject evidence that is often sitting right in front of us.

You must also realize, by now, that I would like to see mainline Christianity go away because it supports abusive ideas and maintains its followers in ignorance and dependence.

I don't deny the possibility of a divine origin. I am reasonably sure that if such an origin exists that it is certainly not the god of the Bible or Jesus.

[John317]

cardw, I'm asking you if you understand what these paragraphs say and have you done what they say, putting your whole trust in the merits of Christ? Especially notice the first paragraph.

Quote:

"Many of you say, 'I have prayed, I have tried, I have struggled, and I do not see that I advance one step.' What is the trouble? Have you not thought you were earning something, that you were by your struggles and works paying the price of your redemption? This you can never do... Take the gift of God... Plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." Signs of the Times, Vol.2, p.488.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

"Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Ibid, 368.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Faith and Works, p.36.

But "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.364; F.W.94.

[Pockey]

Jude 9 is speaking of the time when Satan was attempting to prevent Moses' resurrection. He claimed that Moses didn't have a right to be raised because of his sins. Christ didn't argue with Satan but merely told him to shut up. Satan shut up. That's what happenes, too, when Satan accuses people who have genuinely put their trust in the merits of Christ. Satan's mouth is stopped. Jesus never loses a case.

John317, I love how you explained this. He is amazing. I had to copy and text what you wrote to a friend. Thank you! I'm learning so much from you. You have no idea how much you are so appreciated. And thank you Parade Orange for posting the verse!

[cardw]

cardw, I'm asking you if you understand what these paragraphs say and have you done what they say, putting your whole trust in the merits of Christ? Especially notice the first paragraph.

Quote:

"Many of you say, 'I have prayed, I have tried, I have struggled, and I do not see that I advance one step.' What is the trouble? Have you not thought you were earning something, that you were by your struggles and works paying the price of your redemption? This you can never do... Take the gift of God... Plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." Signs of the Times, Vol.2, p.488.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

"Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Ibid, 368.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Faith and Works, p.36.

But "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.364; F.W.94.

[John317]

cardw, God knows our hearts and our intentions.

I can promise you this because God said it through His prophets:

If you are honest and sincere with God, and truly desire Him and are willing to obey Him, you won't be lost. Just don't give up seeking Him. Continue to put your trust in Christ's merits. You are not alone in your struggles.

[Overaged]

cardw, God knows our hearts and our intentions.

I can promise you this because God said it through His prophets:

If you are honest and sincere with God, and truly desire Him and are willing to obey Him, you won't be lost. Just don't give up seeking Him. Continue to put your trust in Christ's merits. You are not alone in your struggles.

[John317]

I sure do appreciate that, Sid. It's a great encouragement to me. :-)

[John317]

..I've put my trust in the merits of Christ. That's one of the first things I tried. I prayed to god, "I trust through the merits of Christ that I have salvation."

So now that I've put my trust in the merits of Christ my life should change. Right?

The biggie that I had at the time was lusting after women because Jesus stated that if I even think about a women lustfully that I have committed adultery or fornication. No change what-so-ever.

It sounds like you expected God to remove the temptations and the desires from you almost overnight.

So you lusted after women. I'm ashamed to say it but I lusted after both men and women, and not only lusted but was extremely promiscuous especially with men for many, many years, actually from 1969 to about 2005. I was addicted to all kinds of sexual habits, ones that I would be ashamed to mention to anyone. I couldn't control myself. I spent whole nights in xxx clubs and on the streets of different American cities. I didn't think God could do anything for me, so for a long time I simply gave up and lived only to satisfy and give pleasure to men. I even got involved in s&m just in order to be with a particular man who loved that sort of thing. I actually didn't care if I died as long as I got what I wanted out of sex.

Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to know that there is still hope and that your expectations of God's taking away all temptations and all evil desires was simply wrong. God doesn't do it that way. It just isn't the way God usually does things.

God goes through the desires and the temptations with us-- He doesn't remove them just because we pray that God will take them away from us. Remember that Paul asked Jesus three times to take away his "thorn," but God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you." What does that mean, you think?

Well, it's been about 6 years now since I did those things.

Do I still have strong desires and temptations to do them? No.

Frankly I'm horrified now to think that I did them. It seems like it was a different person.

What changed?

The only way I can express it is by saying that Jesus gave me a new heart and mind.

Why did it take so long?

Because it took me that long before I totally gave Him my entire life without reserving anything for myself. Until that point, I was keeping parts of me back. I didn't want to give him certain parts of my life. Until then I didn't hate sin. I had wanted heaven but had also wanted my favorite sins.

Now came the point where I realized it had to be all Jesus or nothing. But to have all Jesus, I knew I had to die. That is, I had to die to my desires and live for Jesus' desires.

I realized that I had nothing to offer Christ but a filthy life in exchange for His perfect righteousness.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

..I've put my trust in the merits of Christ. That's one of the first things I tried. I prayed to god, "I trust through the merits of Christ that I have salvation."

So now that I've put my trust in the merits of Christ my life should change. Right?

The biggie that I had at the time was lusting after women because Jesus stated that if I even think about a women lustfully that I have committed adultery or fornication. No change what-so-ever.

It sounds like you expected God to remove the temptations and the desires from you almost overnight.

[cardw]

cardw, God knows our hearts and our intentions.

I can promise you this because God said it through His prophets:

If you are honest and sincere with God, and truly desire Him and are willing to obey Him, you won't be lost. Just don't give up seeking Him. Continue to put your trust in Christ's merits. You are not alone in your struggles.

I haven't given up seeking. As far as the god of the Bible there isn't anything there to seek, because I see no evidence at all of any changes made by that god.

Again, I would point out, that even in this thread there isn't a consistent agreement of how to be saved. The only thing that is clear is the lack of clarity.

The changes that have occurred in my life have come through normal experience, rigorous honesty, and verification by results. There is no room for cliches and empty promises.

[BobRyan]

On this thread - one thing is amazingly clear -

Quote:

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

16 ""For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 ""For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "" He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 ""This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Free will.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

...I, personally, would rather see the authoritative nature of the Bible and all holy writings diminished considerably because they interfere with direct experience. They are way over interpreted and cause us to reject evidence that is often sitting right in front of us...

As I understand it, this is exactly what Jesus said to the Jewish leaders about their use of their Scripture, as his disciple John recalled it in his gospel in 5:39-40.

We, Adventists in particular but also Christians in general, have become so wrapped up in being defenders of the faith, apologist for their favorite brand of religious tradition that they no longer know life or even truly seek to live it to the full. It's that old favorite saying, "They are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good." Religion has become more important than what was supposed to be its Object of regard. It has created a crude caricature of God. And when the real thing sits in front of them they simply do not recognize it and many with great religious fervor blindly reject it.

It is no wonder that those who have truly experienced life as it was meant to be, reject religion.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...I, personally, would rather see the authoritative nature of the Bible and all holy writings diminished considerably because they interfere with direct experience. They are way over interpreted and cause us to reject evidence that is often sitting right in front of us...

As I understand it, this is exactly what Jesus said to the Jewish leaders about their use of their Scripture, as his disciple John recalled it in his gospel in 5:39-40.

We, Adventists in particular but also Christians in general, have become so wrapped up in being defenders of the faith, apologist for their favorite brand of religious tradition that they no longer know life or even truly seek to live it to the full. It's that old favorite saying, "They are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good." Religion has become more important than what was supposed to be its Object of regard. It has created a crude caricature of God. And when the real thing sits in front of them they simply do not recognize it and many with great religious fervor blindly reject it.

It is no wonder that those who have truly experienced life as it was meant to be, reject religion.

That's quite true; Tom. But I am not so sure anyone in this thread could be fitted into that category. cardw does have some legitimate points here; but he takes them way too far in not allowing anyone to have an experience with God that would counter the points he has been making.

[cardw]

That's quite true; Tom. But I am not so sure anyone in this thread could be fitted into that category. cardw does have some legitimate points here; but he takes them way too far in not allowing anyone to have an experience with God that would counter the points he has been making.

I haven't been making the point that my experience is proof of anything. Now I did quote some stats on porn use by Christian men and that does indicate that Christianity is powerless to change that.

You have made the point that my experience isn't proof, so why should your experience be proof. You are applying a double standard here.

I refer to my experience because I found no evidence for me that would indicate that Christianity was working. And you have refused to answer any questions in that regard.

[Overaged]

[Pockey]

Disguise it as they may, the real cause of doubt and skepticism, in most cases, is the love of sin. The teachings and restrictions of God’s word are not welcome to the proud, sin-loving heart, and those who are unwilling to obey its requirements are ready to doubt its authority. In order to arrive at truth, we must have a sincere desire to know the truth and a willingness of heart to obey it. And all who come in this spirit to the study of the Bible will find abundant evidence that it is God’s word, and they may gain an understanding of its truths that will make them wise unto salvation. –Ellen G. White (Steps To Christ p111)

[ClubV12]

Sid says,

"...the real cause of doubt and skepticism, in most cases, is the love of sin."

Lets put a finer point on that, "self". The unconverted desperately wicked heart, believer or not. Conversion is what replaces the worlds attractions with the joy and contentment of following the Lord. So what prevents conversion and replaces the love of sin?

Pleasures of life. Games, TV, internet, movies, food anything that takes our mind of Christ. Even "good" christian games could apply here.

The cares of this life. For the poor, worry about the next meal, or loosing the house, the car breaking down. For the rich, worried about the banks folding, our the stock market collapsing, or the Ferrari needing repairs.

Dwelling on the faults of others. Applies to all but as we become more "spiritually attuned" the problem can be even greater!

Dwelling on our own faults. Asking the Lord to take our problems, and then picking them up and carrying them with away with us when were done praying.

All of the above are about "self".

In any of these areas there is of course a balance. You might really loose the house and need to prepare for that. Or the stock market might really crash, Gods warning not to pile up treasure on THIS earth! Don't go to extremes on either side of an issue.

Conversion really does replace so many things in this life we think we have to have. Partial conversion, reaching for both the heavenly AND the worldly crown, results in being miserable and confused. You never attain either heavenly peace or worldy peace. All though, you may THINK you have attained some worldy peace because the devil leaves you alone. It's a counterfit, a bush whack, an ambush, you'll never see it coming until it's to late.

[Overaged]

That's an interesting post; although I would add that it's not Sid who says that about "love of sin;" it was Ellen White who said it.

I know in my case; that quote has been painfully true.

[BobRyan]

Disguise it as they may, the real cause of doubt and skepticism, in most cases, is the love of sin.

The teachings and restrictions of God’s word are not welcome to the proud, sin-loving heart, and those who are unwilling to obey its requirements are ready to doubt its authority. In order to arrive at truth, we must have a sincere desire to know the truth and a willingness of heart to obey it. And all who come in this spirit to the study of the Bible will find abundant evidence that it is God’s word, and they may gain an understanding of its truths that will make them wise unto salvation. –Ellen G. White (Steps To Christ p111)

Amen!

Tnanks for posting that.